TheSignalEngineer

On 19/10/2023 at 16:45, Stoke West said:

They were used on Holyheads and other workings , at Stafford late afternoon two up trains ran in close succession 

I seem to remember an early Up Holyhead having one when I was working on the Trent Valley. 

1 hour ago, RichardT said:

 

As others have pointed out, work culture and the railway safety environment has changed massively in forty years (I shudder at some of the things I was allowed to do unsupervised at LT in the early 1990s)

As with BR back pre-Clapham. (I shudder to think of what today's world would make of things we did in the 1960s. )

Short-cutting processes was actively encouraged by some very senior managers in the 80s, especially those 'boil in the bags' who had been catapulted from graduate training into management jobs where they were moved on about every two years before they could make a serious mistake.

Shortly after Clapham there were some nasty on-track fatal accidents involving S&T staff in particular which led to some of the changes in track safety rules. Some of my projects were used as trials for new procedures in working hours, installation methods and commissioning procedures. We had even started some pre-Clapham as we could see the holes in what was being dictated by the people at the top.

In track safety We were still working to what was done in the days when 75% of trains were unfitted freights and applying it to a 100mph railway. I trialled fenced Green Zone working c1989 and negotiated protective temporary speed restrictions when working adjacent to open lines, very much in line with what is done nowadays on motorways.

On the eighties again today. During a re-org in 1988 I didn't like the way things were going so opted out of the design management job I was in and engineered myself a move to site work. Initially my main occupation was concerned with interfacing between BR and the contractor on the DC Lines SSI project. A very interesting job as I think it was the first to interface two interlockings and long distance Data Links with repeaters. Besides being at the forefront of BR technology it also had some vey old kit, none more so than probably the last LNWR miniature arm ground signal in use on BR.

This was the exit signal for the turnback siding at Harrow and Wealdstone used mainly by underground services. It was taken out on 10th December 1988. 

3 hours ago, MarkC said:

Mmm, About 25 years ago, one of my then company's senior officers decided to install a game on his ship's comms computer. Totally against all rules and, indeed, common sense. Unfortunately, he'd been given this (pirated) game by someone else, and the installation disc had more viruses in it than a South American house of ill repute, as the story goes... Not only did it knock out the ship's comms; it also got into the shore systems, and took a LOT of sorting out to get everything clean again...

 

Mark

When we first had a small network at our office a certain amount of private use space was allowed to encourage people to become familiar with the system, BUT on the strict condition that any incoming disk was scanned by the IT man before being inserted in your machine.

6 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Though items for use within the railway industry might have been carried later p'raps ?

Parcels carried 'On Company Service' (OCS) along with travel for duty purposes died with privatisation. We were already using a courier service to send out parcels of plans and diagrams from the Drawing Office.

We had to pay for our tickets to go to meetings from about 1995. For some meetings I used to get and early morning flight as it was cheaper than going by rail the previous afternoon and using a hotel.

31 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

All true - and none disputed, but wasn't it always thus?

 

The human condition is such that we will ALWAYS repeat the follies of our forefathers - to believe that we can make the future a safer place is delusion.

Likewise I can't dispute what you are saying. Some happenings you can forecast from historical performance statistics but not random failures or when two or three things align and a mistake slips through the hole.

I've made my mistakes but fortunately the system in place at the time trapped them before they became incidents.

Progress will happen, but what frightens me is today's rush to "get things to market" without finding if they work correctly. Nowadys we trust SSI to control our signalling but when it was first developed one of my colleagues spent 18 months trying to break it before it was even put into trial service.

Western Hero looks on as Flying Scotsman shunts to the railway museum sidings after arriving at Tyseley Open Day on 29 September 1968.

Not a lot of H&S in sight. Hope that guy at the front only wants to take a cine film of the valve gear as it goes past.

7 hours ago, Hroth said:

 

Can't remember if he'd had the FO before becoming PM, perhaps he's trying to get a full hand of the Offices of State?

 

Dave went straight from opposition to PM. First elected during Blair's government.

Got "bowled" by this one at Buxon recently. All set up on platform 1 to film the kettle arriving on platform 2 when this parked up in the middle siding just as the special came in.

4 hours ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

#7 looks like MR 1000 at Blisworth.

27 May 1961 I suspect. Ran Gloucester to Derby then back via Wellingborough, the SMJ and Honeybourne.

https://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/60s/610527gr.html

4 hours ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

#18 is the preserved Midland Compound 1000 on a special at B'ham New Street c1959.

30 August 1959, possibly its first mainline trip in preservation. Birmingham New Street to Doncaster and York, return via Pontefract.

Standing by the Bridge Inspector's office on Platform 7

47 minutes ago, toby_tl10 said:

Interesting point. What about the 805s, 807s and 810s that are yet to be delivered? Are they also old products?

 

From the discussions above, it would seem having a contract without an option to purchase extra units/coaches is not the wisest.

Similar problems in signalling electronic systems. We were usually required to provide support and modification capability for 15 years minimum. It took a few dodges along the way but a some systems I was involved in served over 30 years. In one case the factory got wind of a particular chip going out of production. It was integral to the design of many of systems running in Britain and around the world. HQ bought up all of the ones they could lay their hands on as quickly as they could get the orders issued.

It's a major problem with modern technology whereas with mechanical systems I worked on equipment up to 100 years old. When I started work the signal lineman's basic tool kit was hammer, cold chisel, adjustable spanner, jemmy bar, pliers, screwdriver, grease and cotton waste. On dual electrical and mechanical sections add a lineman's AVO, terminal nut spinner and a smaller screwdriver. 

4 hours ago, adb968008 said:

10pm we are called to an urgent all hands company call with the states..

on the call, were told our BU was for sale, but had fallen through, and as a result was to be disbanded, all sales motion to be immediately stopped and back out of all oppourtunities immediately.

As you can imagine our howls of protest went to the wee hours, but fell on deaf ears in the corporate HQ.

Given how advanced we were, contractually we couldnt pull out the process, our only way out was to add 2 zeros to the final proposal and have the customer push us out 9am next day… The customer choked at seeing the price of a brand new A380 for the proposal, as we had to quietly explain why.

In one instance one of my contacts called me one day to say they urgently needed to do some track alterations to cure a bottleneck. His problem was that it was controlled by a one-off system and no-one there seemed to know how it was set up, the records they had didn't seem to match the existing and they were already operating on a wing and a prayer to keep the railway running as they had no spare EPROMs for the system. I asked around the office and it transpired that we had inherited the Olivetti computer and EPROM blower that the original contractor had used to do the work in the first place. We also had a member of staff who knew how it all worked. As the original price for telling them what they needed to know was only about £7k our head office were dead against me getting involved until I told them it was a day's work for me to tell the client what we already knew, that he was ready to pay me another £11k for a day's work for two of us to read, download the data and duplicate the existing EPROMs so they had current spares. The follow-up would be in excess of £100k of work on the first job as a nominated sub-contractor and put us in pole position for any other work on the same system. 

In reverse, I was part of a bid team for an infrastructure maintenance contract. We put our bid in and went through all the presentations and Q&A sessions. The client team called us in and said that they liked our technical submissions and our answers to how we would deal with the existing performance problems. The only problem they had was one of the other bidders was offering to do it for £5 million less. We told them that our price was what it would realistically cost do cover all of the requirements, and we weren't interested in doing it for less. If they wanted to employ the bidder who had no proven track record in that line of work (my grapevine and deductive powers had pointed to whom) it was up to them but don't expect us to come running when it ends in tears. Needless to say it all fell apart in 12 months and they ended up having to take the work in-house, partly because they had fouled the nest in the eyes of all who were capable of doing the job.

4 minutes ago, SM42 said:

Where was the old staff car park in that photo?

Heard about it, never saw it.

The entrance was at the side of the station building. It went along where the new road goes down and right past Park Street bridge, covering the whole of the goods yard.

On 10/11/2023 at 00:03, adb968008 said:

1748 Scarborough to Leeds…

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G67145/2023-11-10/detailed

why does this service bother to do this joy ride ?

On 10/11/2023 at 22:10, Wheatley said:

To maintain diversionary  route knowledge for the various Transpennine Route Upgrade overnight blockades currently taking place.

Quite common up here.

There is an East Midlands run from Manchester to Sheffield via Marple instead of Stockport in the evening

First XC train out of Manchester runs via Styal line and Crewe

0603 to Euston goes via Styal line, Crewe and Birmingham

Afternoon stone empties from Ashburys to Hindlow via Hazel Grove and Whaley Bridge instead of Marple and Peak Forest.

Just a note regarding any photos "inside the fence". These were taken when I was in these places for valid reasons under whatever safety rules were in force at the time be it clear of track with lookout or under various line block arrangements.

Back to 1988, during my time covering signalling works on the bottom end of WCML and MML, Yeoman 59004 goes over the girder bridge crossing the GW main line between North Pole and Mitre Bridge. This was taken from the south corner of the bridge next to Scrubbs Lane.

In March, April and May each year there were a series of matches at Wembley including a Womens Hockey international usually late March, then through April into May there was the FA Amateur Cup, Schoolboys International, FA Cup final and Rugby League Cup Final generating specials from around the country, several of which would disgorge their passengers at Wembley Hill as it was called in those days. There were usually some coming via High Wycombe. Trains Illustrated for the time usually had some reports of foreign engines turning up on these in the Motive Power Miscellany column.

This was taken nearly 20 years from the previous two pictures but has links to them.  On the left hand side about half way up, the bit the Derby lines from New Street as they emerge under Moor Street station is to the right of the Class 210 in Thursday's shot. If you look closely the same signal is there. Moor Street's terminal platforms were still in situ but disused as the through platforms were opened in 1987. The station name board next to the Met Cam trailer in the multicoloured DMU shot is still visible in this one despite the platform not seeing a train for over 13 years.

Early in 2001 the Bull Ring Centre was being demolished and I had a panoramic view of the site from my office on the 13th floor of the Rotunda. As we were moving to a low-rise office without a view I decided to get a few shots for posterity. 

This picture shows Moor Street station with the old platforms still disused. The part of the subterranean goods depot between Moor Street and Park Street had been demolished and the new road built. The glazed bricks under the old arches are still visible in this shot.

It includes virtually the whole of the viaduct from Moor Street to the Coventry Road and the never-completed viaduct from Bordesley towards Curzon Street. Other railway locations include the Freightliner cranes at Lawley Street and the Coventry line heading towards Adderley Park. 

5th July 1980. The collision was between a Cross City service worked by Class 116 set TS591 leaving Suffolk Street tunnel and 47 337 which was doing a shunt to attach to a train IIRC. M50115 leading the DMU was withdrawn. No fatalities, 1 injury.

I was sitting on a local in Platform 2 when it happened. We were due to follow a London out but because of the incident it had been stopped coming in. The platform supervisor shouted to the driver and asked if he was ready to go. The driver said yes, the supervisor pressed the TRS, green aspect, Right Away and off we go. I only heard what had happened when we got off and my Dad said he was worried because there'd been a crash at New Street.

1 hour ago, SM42 said:

I remember plenty of notes on the panel about interlocking issues that would route lock ( rather than set up conflicting routes)  the unwary.

 

Oh how we laughed when someone forgot and locked the panel up.

I remember one case where it was possible 'when the planets were aligned' to get a route stuck in from Monument Lane tunnel (NS244?) to Platform 11. That one caused absolute mayhem. I think it was a case of relay timing as routes cancelled sequentially through each geographcal unit in line order. Due to the number of points in the route the cancelling process could time out before it reached the end.

9 hours ago, SM42 said:

New St was/ is a fascinating place signalling wise and had / has some quite impressive S&C installations

A nightmare for interlocking design. There were lots of places where a train could theroretically get from a to b in multiple ways. Some were inhibited because they prevented parallel moves taking place while those having several possible parallel moves had alternative route buttons so the signalman could choose. There were a few where the interlocking picked which one to use automatically depending on which other routes were already set. One Sunday there was an OLE isolation on the Midland side outside the PSB. A train for Wolverhampton was due to leave one of the centre platforms and the interlocking picked the left hand option. Unfortunately it went through the isolation for about 20 yards and the loco didn't quite roll across the gap. A quick shove from the Jocko put the pan back on the juice. The outcome of that event was us spending three months producing those isolation overlays, the first time they were provided I believe.

I think there was only one serious incident in the station area, a low speed collision between a 47 and a DMU, where a signalman and driver managed to beat the system. A light engine was leaving one of the non-track circuit sidings when the signalman buttoned out when the driver was already on the move. We struggled to reproduce the alledged condition but in theory it may nave been possible to do for about half a second. The condition had never knowingly happened on a Westpac Mk1 interlocking during testing or in the 15 years they had been in use. Fortunately was an easy fix, just a lot of head scratching to find it.

Trawling through the 110 Files again tonight, I think this one from September 1981 showing a typical Tyseley 3-car set of the period should really be in the 'Prototype for everything corner'.

My train to work that day consisted of a Gloucester Class 122 bubble car, Met Cam Class 101 trailer and a Cravens Class 105 Driving Motor coach in three different liveries

22 hours ago, SM42 said:

Just about to go through NS570 points and bang road on the up through the tunnel to reach the lower number platforms  (1 -3 IIRC) at New St  via what I think was F route (again IIRC) .

Yes, NS570 points. A crossover was put there during the reconstruction to allow trains to arrive from Proof House into platforms 1-3. It was taken out when New Street PSB was commissioned and those polatforms became Up direction only. It was reinstated in late 1972 to improve flexibility enabling Down trains to run through platforms 2 and 3 or arrive and reverse in platform 1. 

Further crossovers were put in during the first Cross City scheme to enable Down through running in platform 1 and to give a parallel route for an Up train departing platform 1 or 2 with a Down train arriving in Platform 3.  IIRC there was an alternative route button in the crossover between Platform 4 and Platform 3 to enable the parallel route to be used rather than the default route via the Up line but I can't remeber the letter.

22 hours ago, Stoke West said:

Like the upside down co-actors in the six foot

Yes, it wasn't possible to see the aspects of the main signal as you came through the tunnel. Note also that the theatre route indicator is mounted alongside of the head at the bottom left of the cage. I made the mounting plate to put it there in 1967 following a sighting complaint where a wrongly routed train had passed the signal befor he could stop.

I remember this sort of thing happeming a few times at Birmingham New Street. The station area was on the centre panel and Proof house which was the first signal beyond the station was on the south panel. As the box had only just been opened the  two signalmen on these sections were not in the habit of telling each other what was going on if there were any changes to script. If for any reason the order of trains departing was changed it was pot luck as to which way it would go at Proof House. The first occasion I remember it happening the Walsall local which was due out three minutes in front of the London train was held up due to a fault on the unit. The centre signalman pulled out the route and set up for the Lomdon without telling the south signalman who had the route set towards Aston. It wasn,t helped in this instance by the NS149 having a theatre route indicator mounted above the signal meaning it couldn't be seen through the tunnel.  In BR days drivers on electric locos were expected to sign everything under the wires so it wasn't a problem from that point of view but the passengers must have been a bit confused when they passed New Street for a second time after a 20-minute tour of Aston, Perry Barr, Handsworth and Winson Green. The problem was partly solved by dropping the indicator down to the bottom of the cage so it was visible as soon as the sinal spect came into view.

Another incident there where I got involved in the investigation was when the centre signalman routed a return excursion for Leamington towards Bordesley, forgetting that it was booked to set down at Coventry on the way. The driver stopped and told the signalman, who promptly told him to set back and he would swing the points. Unfortunately he didn't check what was happening behind as the Centre signalman had sent a train through a facing crossover to the rear. The last vehicle of the excursion stopped straddling the crossover then the driver set off again. When I passed on the way to work the next morning the last vehicle... was still wedged fast across the London lines under Park Street bridge.