great northern

Hi Gordon, I'm not sure that there would have been bushes in that sort of position at all back in the good old days.Far more pride was taken in general appearance than is now the case, when just about anything is allowed to grow anywhere so long as it isn't actually obstructing running lines.I think the sort of rough grass you have already tried is more appropriate, particularly for a very urban location. As you say, some track related stuff about to be used, or just having been replaced, might be the answer. In any event, it will be a lot easier and cheaper to change than the tender detail on a very expensive A4

Hi Gordon, Blimey! Scenic work now. Whatever next? Anyway, you may recall that when you visited me last year to acquire a substantial quantity of real estate you will have noticed the embankments that I did along my riverside section. For those I created a base as you have done,and then used Heki grass matting applied in layers. It comes in several different colours, so you can apply it in such a way as to avoid that uniform look that you don't want. I thoroughly recommend it, because in addition to varying colouration it also builds up a good realistic texture. Gilbert

Hi Gordon, Blimey! Scenic work now. Whatever next? Anyway, you may recall that when you visited me last year to acquire a substantial quantity of real estate you will have noticed the embankments that I did along my riverside section. For those I created a base as you have done,and then used Heki grass matting applied in layers. It comes in several different colours, so you can apply it in such a way as to avoid that uniform look that you don't want. I thoroughly recommend it, because in addition to varying colouration it also builds up a good realistic texture. Gilbert

I think this must be Peterborough M &GN to South Lynn started there, as did a number of GE section trains. Spalding would also have seen M&GN and GE regularly though. Grantham had one or two L1's on and off, but they didn't really arrive there or at Colwick in large numbers until 1959 onwards. This I know, as I have been trying to justify having one at Peterborough in 1958. An afternoon local from Hitchin has solved the problem, but Peterborough- Grantham locals are also in the frame.

The entry in the LNER encyclopaedia is in fact correct. It states that 9000 was the only LNER tank loco painted in lined green. The rest of course, including 9001, were built in 1948 and later, by British Railways.

Hi Ian, They did indeed finish up at Gorton, but according to the records I have the first one didn't arrive there until May 1957. As to how long they remained in green, according to RCTS only till their first general overhaul, which would be perfectly logical. How long did it take them to run up enough mileage to reach that first overhaul though I wonder? Trouble is, all the first 24 which were painted green were either on the GE section or at Neasden until well into the '50's. I bet there wasn't much green visible on Stratford or Neasden engines either. Still, who knows what wanderings they may have got up to

Would'nt 60526 (York) or 60538 (Gateshead) have been more common on the NE region though Tom?

This has drifted off topic somewhat, but nevertheless a fascinating discussion. First, to amplify Coachmann's point about seat reservations, the 1958/9 Eastern region winter timetable shows that seats could in fact be reserved on the vast majority of the principal express trains. What then happened when a coach was failed in the carriage sidings an hour before departure time? Presumably the foreman would look to replace it on a like for like basis, but the prime duty would be to get the train away on time, so I suspect that the nearest and most easily accessible vehicle would have been substituted. By definition that is likely to have been an inferior vehicle. Were there for example spare Pullman cars readily available? Next, I can see why Pennine made the comments he did, and understand some of the responses. There is a fine line between encouraging people to produce accurate models and dissuading them from coming into the hobby at all. And of course there are some who couldn't give a ***** anyway. Nevertheless, the amount of accurate information now available is immense compared with what was readily available only ten years ago, so it is arguable that we should indeed ensure that where that information is available we get it right. On a personal note, I can say that I certainly do derive pleasure from the knowledge that my train formations are correct. If the prototype information isn't readily available, then the next best thing as Pennine says is to produce something which is in line with what the traffic aimed at would dictate. Finally, there were of course in the old days relief trains, which were often composed of anything which was still capable of turning a wheel, or which happened to be lying about at the time. That will be my exccuse I think for running one of these Hawksworth coaches on my ECML layout.

There has been one other significant bit of progress. I have finally got my hands on a copy of the Summer 1958 Main Line passenger working timetable, which has already proved to be invaluable, and has brought home to me even more forcibly the advantages of modelling a prototype. I have been able to plot out a complete sequence, deduce which trains used which platforms, and see where the paths for freight trains occurred. I also have a 1956 freight WTT, from which I had tried to work out when the goods paths would be, and my predictions turned out to be pretty close to reality. I suppose that's not surprising really when one is lucky enough to have the official records. Anyway, it's clear that in theory at least there were adequate slots, even in daylight hours, to get quite a bit of goods traffic through the bottleneck. 12 up coal trains and the same number of down empties between 0730 and 2130 for a start. So, the up main,on paper at least, would accomodate everything, which suggests to me that the up goods departure road would be little used, even though nominally at least it still existed. I hope so anyway, as otherwise I shall have to incorporate a double slip into the fiddle yard exit at one end, which I would much prefer to avoid if I can, as I can see problems getting long trains of four wheeled wagons through such an arrangement however carefully I try to align it. What is very clear though is that the moment anything went wrong the whole thing became an operating nightmare, and complete gridlock must have been close on many occasions. One late running passenger train would I think be sufficient to foul the whole thing up. I have heard that there were often trains queued up particularly to get into the one available up platform, and it's easy to see why. The operating sequence I have so far worked out requires 198 trains to be run. That does not include shunting and light engime movements which I haven't got round to yet. I suspect I may have been over ambitious, and that it will take weeks just to get through a single day's workings. Any views on that folks?

A bit of progress has been made. The first boards have gone away for Norman Saunders to instal track, and hopefully will return at the end of the month. In the meantime I think I've sorted the design of the fiddle yard, subject to one potential problem, which I'll return to later. First though I thought some detail shots of the baseboards might be of interest, as they show how the Brilliant Baseboards concept works in practice. They come as flatpacks, but are easily assembled with the glue and brush supplied. Size is 1200mm by 600, though I see from the website that half size ones can be supplied as well. We just cut the 1200mm ones to whatever width was required at a given point. They're very accurately machined, and just bolt together. This shows how easy it is to create a wider baseboard module. Legs can be supplied, but are a bit expensive, so Tom Wright made some himself. This shows how they were secured to the boards. This again shows the general arrangement of how it all goes together. Bolts are provided, and easily secured using the pre drilled holes in the boards. This again shows how easy it is to get whatever baseboard width you need. And here's a closer view of the completed unit. And finally Tetleys and myself admiring the results of the labours of Tom Wright and Rob Davey, to whom go many thanks for doing the majority of the work.

The new A1 is Great Eastern guys, not Great Central, which has indeed already been done. As to the delays, I think these must be down to things outside Bachmann's control - either production slots being changed or shipping problems. I can't imagine that they would want to make themselves open to unneccesary crticism, and appear hopelessly inefficient, by publishing details on the website that they had not been given assurances about at the time. We shall all just have to be patient I'm afraid, though it's not something I'm very good at.

Thanks Andy. That is conclusive - it was still there. I never cease to be amazed at the amount of knowledge there is on here, and people's willingness to share it. It is much appreciated. I still can't find any photos of this line in use though. All that I have show goods trains, including unfitted ones which have started in New England yards, approaching the platform end on the up main, or crossing to or using the up slow. That of course doesn't mean the goods departure line wasn't used, and it's hard to see why it should still be there and so described in 1971 if it was not still in use. Here is a page from the summer 1956 WTT. It clearly shows some trains using the goods line from Westwood. However, among the many plans that LNERGE has very kindly sent me are some which clearly show that the up goods did have access to the up main before Spital Bridge, so I'm not sure what that proves. Interestingly, Spital Junction is shown on the down KX- New England WTT, but not on the Up one. I guess that doesn't prove anything either on reflection, because the train would be either on the up main or the goods departure road before it got there! The WTT also shows trains shown as on the "goods line" changing from one running line to another at Peterborough North, but that could mean they were transferring from the up main to the up slow, or from the goods departure road to the up main. What we now need in an ex Peterborough signalman, but I guess that's a bit much to ask!

Thanks Rob. I think it's fair to assume that it was a war time expedient, and that the lack of mention of it post war means that it was discontinued when things went back to normal.Unless anyone knows otherwise of course......?

I would be grateful if you can find it Rob. I suspect i need to run the layout entirely differently if this arrangement was still in place in the late '50's. I have an old copy of Trains Illustrated which contains an article by G. Freeman Allen about Peterborough in 1955. He makes no mention of an up goods like this then, though he does mention the engine line from the shed. I suspect that this up goods departure may have been a wartime expedient which ceased after the war ended, but it would be very nice to know for sure. Gilbert

I reckon the whole thing was an afterthought! It just seems to have been cobbled together and then they have had to make the thing work.The up goods line as shown on the plan came as a surprise to me, as I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere as running like that. I knew there was an engine line from New England shed that came that way, but I understood that the up slow was used for goods if the up main was not available. All the 1950's photos of up goods trains that I have show them either approaching from the North on the up main, or using the up slow. As a result, I wonder if this plan is for an earlier period, although a great deal of it is the same as the formation I had settled on. I can to a degree understand the logic of the down goods crossing to the up side, as the majority of New England yard was on the up side. I suppose the number of transfer movements from down to up side would have been even more disruptive than the blocking of the main lines at each end once? As I said earlier though, trying to apply logic to the arrangemets at Peterborough in steam days is rather unrewarding, because they defied logic in so many respects. I find it increasingly fascinating though. Every time I think I've got something sorted new information arrives which makes me think again. Nevertheless, I am very grateful that you have taken the time and trouble to let me have these hugely informative, if rather puzzling, plans. Gilbert

Yes please. Any information I can get is most welcome.

About time for a progress report. After what seemed a very long time with nothing happening, things have started moving quite nicely. The first two baseboards have been collected by Norman Saunders of Just Tracks, and I am expecting them back with track laid in early October. Looks like the whole of the scenic part will be done by January :) In the meantime,I've been fiddling around with the fiddle yard. I want to run ten coach trains if possible, because anything less than that looks a bit unbalanced if I include all the catering vehicles. I have 18 through roads, though two will always be empty to allow continuous running when the mood takes me. There are a lot of trains to fit in, so I need to get two ten coach rakes in where possible. It hasn't been easy, and in order to do it I have had to accept some curves of 2ft 6 radius. I don't really mind that, as it isn't in the viewing area, and most of my locos will handle it with ease. One or two of the Thompson pacifics may struggle though. Why couldn't the b***** man have put the cylinders in a sensible position like that nice Sir Nigel? There may have to be a bit of RA 10 and restrict them to certain roads I fear. Peco assymetric three way turnouts have proved to be a real help. Here are a couple of shots to give the general idea, though nothing is put down permanently yet, so ignore the misalignments please. It looks like I can get in more than I thought, and that I will still have two long roads which are empty in addition to the through roads. I view this with great suspicion. I don't usually get that kind of good fortune, and I wonder if I've made a mistake.If it is right I shall try to resist the temptation to fill them at once, as a bit of flexibility is no bad thing. My intention is to run the correct trains as far as possible in the correct order. What goes Down will return Up,and that goes for locos too. I have diagrammed locos to trains, using what knowledge I possess as to which shed was responsible for a particular working, and no loco will return until the correct amount of time has elapsed for it to get to its destination, be turned and coaled, and get back as far as Peterborough. This will mean that most locos will only appear twice at most in a full days sequence, which I supect may take several real time days to run. This unfortunately means I will need lots of locos, particularly Pacifics. :D Speaking of locos, here is my latest acquisition. This is an ex GC N5 tank, built for me by John Houlden from the SE Finecast kit, and featuring the overlays which SE Finecast can now supply to allow the majority of the class, which had very prominent rivetted tanks,to be modelled. This is yet another of the mysteries of Peterborough. For half a century Ivatt C12 tank engines were used as station pilots. The last ones were withdrwawn in 1958, which is fair enough as they were introduced in 1898! You'd think wouldn't you that they would be replaced by something a bit more modern? Diesel shunter perhaps? But no, a number of N5's were gathered up mainly from the Cheshire lines, where I suspect they had been in store for rather a long time, and sent to New England. 69290, pictured above, was built in 1894, and was even older than the clapped out locos it replaced. If anyone knows the logic behind this, if there was any, I'd be very grateful if they would share the information. Not surprisingly the N5's didn't last long either - all had gone by 1960.They in turn were replaced by N2's made redundant at Kings Cross, which one would think were totally unsuitable for pilot duties. Didn't New England men want diesels? That would surely be surprising. Or weren't they given a choice? If not, why not? Even at a backwater like Lincoln when the last J69 went it was replaced by an 03, and that was in 1959. It's all very strange, and I doubt we shall ever know the answer. Fascinating though - well, to me at least. Back to the layout. Nice interesting things to do shortly, such as soldering zillions of dropper wires. Then we can get going on laying the fiddle yard. Buildings are progressing well too. Oh, and I have another 19 Bachmann MK 1's which need the roof ribs scraping off. Ah, the pleasures of modelling. Gilbert

One final image of the old Peterborough, and IMO one of Tony Wright's finest.

Yes they've been modified , but it is very easy to do. The whole thing just bolts together, so there is no problem at all in making them as wide as you want them. It really is a very logical and easy system to deal with.

Hi Tom, The intention this time is to model the real Peterborough North as it was in 1958, as closely as I can, given the space constraints with which I have to work. So, as far as possible I shall have the right track plan, though shorn of many sidings, and unfortunately without the Midland tracks. The buildings will also be the correct ones, and as nearly as possible in the right places. Signals too will be built from prototype photos and placed as nearly as possible where they should be. It will be considerably shorter than than the real thing, but not I think to a degree where it begins to look totally unrealistic. I have read the views of the likes of the late David Jenkinson as to how much it is permissible to shorten the real thing and still call it by its real name. My attitude is straightforward and pragmatic. It's all very well modelling small stations to prototype length, though even that is surprisingly difficult to achieve, but all main lines, not just the ECML were about something a lot grander than that. By definition the bigger stations can't be faithfully reproduced other than in huge spaces. Look at the size of Roy Jackson's Retford, and the real thing isn't even a particularly big station. That is a huge project, in a very large space - there are very few if any like it certainly in private ownership, and I doubt there will be many more. Does that mean that we just can't model relatively large real locations? I don't subscribe to that view. My Peterborough will have the dogs leg curves, the dilapidated overall roof, and hopefully many other things which shout "Peterborough North" to anyone who knew the place. OK, it will be a third shorter than it should be, though even that is mainly between the North end of the platforms and Spital Bridge, but instead of maximum 13 coach trains I shall run 10. That keeps everything in proportion, which IMO makes it look more real. Anyway, it's my train set. It will also keep me on the straight and narrow where locos are concerned. Very little is needed to get me to covet some of the lovely stuff which is on offer, but if I start buying locos that never came anywhere near Peterborough I shall destroy the illusion of reality I want to achieve immediately. So, that grainy photo that may or may not show a failed Blue Pullman being dragged along the down slow by what looks very much like an S&D 2.8.0 will be ignored. Ther's nothing wrong with having a disciplined and structured view on things, if that's the kind of person you are, and I am. Others just run what they fancy, and good luck to them. Oh dear, that's a very long answer to a simple question, and I'm not even getting paid by the word.

Here are a few pics of the layout in its present state of development. Apologies as usual for the poor photos. You can just about see the method of baseboard construction, which was done using "Brilliant Baseboards" kits. They really did go together perfectly, and are engineered to a very high standard. The tops are 9mm birch ply - not cheap, but the foundations of the layout are key to good operation, so I work on the basis that I will use the best I can afford. As you can see. I have started laying out the storage sidings.In doing so, I am I hope avoiding the temptation of cramming too much in. The boards are 3 feet wide, so 18 tracks will be the maximum - any more and it would be impossible to get my fingers down the side of any derailed vehicle. A close view of what will be the South end of the storage area. I have used a number of Peco assymetric three way turnouts. These are not cheap, but are tremendous space savers in situations like this. This is just a shot from the other end of the room. The empty boards on the other side of the room, waiting to go to Norman Saunders of "Just Tracks" who will custom build the track on this side. Here's a bit of good fortune. That little alcove at the back is big enough to get in two more dead end tracks. They'll be about 4ft 6ins long, which will accomodate two of my local services from the South end of the station. Finally, the corner can be used to store another three short trains, which nicely covers the rest of the local services from this end. Alternatively, all this dead end storage could represent the Nene carriage sidings, which existed just before the line crossed the river. Actually "existed" is misleading, as some of them are still there. I'll give this some more thought before reaching a decision, as I can also store these trains within the main storage area if I wish. The corner at the other end will store another three trains, but no nice alcove at that end unfortunately. You will see that I have had good lighting installed, and a nice laminated floor. Again, these are not cheap, but make a huge difference. I'm hopefully going to spend a lot of time in here, so it needs to be as user friendly as possible.

Changing engines was actually a big problem, which I think is partly why so few trains did so at Peterborough in my period. There was an independent line from New England shed to the end of the up platform, but that platform road was so intensively used that often there was no path down to the south end bay, which is where relief engines were stabled. That meant using the main up line to get as far as Spital bridge, then using the up slow and blocking everything twice in the process. To re-engine a down train, if the independent line was used, the loco had to use the crossover at the north end of the up platform to get onto the down main, then reverse into a bay, thus both obstructing the main running lines and preventing anything in that bay from getting out! I doubt that those trying to control traffic had much hair left.

OK, to a degree I have to put my hands up here, and admit that personally I do not get much fun out of shunting. I can understand the concept, and the fact that it is a sort of three dimensional puzzle, but it leaves me cold, so it will never get much priority on any of my layouts, at least while I have the room to build something big. The problem I still see with Little Bytham is that there are only two opportunities in each day to do any of this if it is operated prototypically. In any event, I reckon this raises an interesting point. Shunting ancient short wheel base wagons across that ladder crossover must have left the people doing it with their hearts in their mouths. One derailment, and you've shut the ECML! I wonder too how old the track in that formation was. I remember reading somewhere that after Mallard's record breaking run someone informed Sir Nigel that there was still some track on Stoke Bank that dated back well into the 19th century. Peter Coster has recounted the times that something came off the rails when using the very similar ladder crossing at New Southgate. My guess is that it was done only if absolutely necessary. Still, I digress. The essential point is that each of us should model interests us personally, and that to that extent at least there are no "rights" and "wrongs". Incidentally, at one stage TW didn't even know how to change points on that ladder crossing! I don't know whether that has changed since. He is more accustomed to round and round, but perhaps he can be educated.

Hi, I also remember this from Model Rail, as one of the outstanding layouts they have featured. What I particularly like is that it oozes atmosphere. That is very hard to define, but easy to spot! Hope all continues to go well with the alterations- I shall look forward to further news and photos. Gilbert