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Triang 0-4-0 and 4W motor bogie - improving running


Nearholmer
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A plea for advice, if I may:

 

My bro has unearthed an old Triang Dock Shunter in very good condition, and the b-t-b is too tight for modern Peco Code 100 points.

 

I’ve experience of ‘drifting’ other small Triang locos to cure this, but have never tackled one of these motor bogies.

 

What is the best technique?

 

It is a seriously good runner - very smooth and responsive - and has the smooth wheels, so I’m dead keen to be able to use it.

 

Thanks in advance, Kevin

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The wheels are force fitted on a plastic axle. The wheel needs to be supported on the back and the axle gently forced back. Care is required to not damage the axle. It might be possible to twist the wheel to ease it out, but I can't guarantee it.

 

I fitted Hornby Dublo wagon wheels with the centre bored out to the axle on my Triang DMU.

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My age old family trick with Triang wheels, never failed yet.

A small pair of pointed electronics pliers, pushed behind the FIXED wheel, one leg either side of the axle, and gently levered against the chassis. This will pull the wheel and axle together, through the chassis, so the other wheel moves on the other end of the axle. Greater B2B, simples. If too much, remove the wheelset from the chassis & squeeze it between finger & thumb to close it up again.

 

Stewart

 

edit to add: this works best with the metal axle and plastic centre insulation. but also works with the plastic axle and 2x metal wheels. Just go gently.

Edited by stewartingram
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That’s one approach on a Nellie etc, but the idea of trying on a plastic axle terrifies me.

 

On steel axles, I’ve also used a ground-off nail as a drift, and supported the wheel between two pieces of metal (square shafts retrieved from old door-handles, filed down, as it happens) across the open jaws of a vice.

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45 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

That’s one approach on a Nellie etc, but the idea of trying on a plastic axle terrifies me.

 

On steel axles, I’ve also used a ground-off nail as a drift, and supported the wheel between two pieces of metal (square shafts retrieved from old door-handles, filed down, as it happens) across the open jaws of a vice.

Done it many times.

 

Stewart

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1 hour ago, mossdp said:

The dock shunter has metal axles.

 

Thank the Good Lord for that!

 

Drifting by the afore-stated method will take place.

 

The flange-width is fine (well, not fine fine) for Peco points, I've checked that and have recently drifted a Nellie of the same vintage, which runs through them very smoothly now.

 

If I get this right, I can imagine building-up a small fleet of Dock Shunters!

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1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

 

Thank the Good Lord for that!

 

Can I add that the plastic insert in the insulated side of the wheelset is extremely brittle. Drifting any movement into it can make it loose, they are replaceable but finding spares is getting difficult. Personally (from experience ) I only drift the un-insulated metal-on-metal side 

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The Dock shunter and he Transcon diesels have metal axles, the same as the Jinty and Princess drive axle.  You can simply hit the end of the axle or prise them across with a screwdriver but the axle will then have excess side play.  For a proper job, make sure you have smooth wheels, Drop the wheels and axle out. Pop both wheels off the axle.  Find some washers which fit the axle, slip them over the axle ends and against the gear. Adjust the thickness of the washers until you have just a few thou sideplay. Pop the wheels back on and gently ease them in to the correct back to back. 14.5mm or 14.2 sliding fit is about right.  Refit. Doing this stops the loco waggling about and helps keep the wire contacts in contact with the wheels.  You can also use Romford Markits wheels on the Markits Triang Knurled axles.  The small flange knurled wheels are similar but  some knurled ones have huge flanges made of some crazily hard metal which are effectively  unuasble.

The A1A  37 and Hymek have plastic gears and naxles moulded in one piece.  These also benefit from having washers between gears and chassis, as do the Triang Steam locos but steamers  have quartering issues if you take the wheels off so maybe leave those well alone.

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OK, I think i'm coming to drifting on the non-insulated side only.

 

I'm not confident to take the wheels right off, or rather I'm not confident in my ability to get them back on again square with the bushes intact, and running locos slowly on a plank layout 7ft long isn't going to induce hunting due to the absence of spacer washers.

 

I did get a Nellie dirt cheap on Sunday, and that already has bushing problems I think, it certainly runs slightly off-true, so that one I may experiment on more radically ...... its not satisfactory as it is, and needs either new bushings or greater changes anyway.

 

Once I've cracked this, I will pester you all with questions about Hornby Dublo EE350 shunters!

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The original Triang Brush Type 2 had nylon, not plastic, drive axles and gears, as did the EM2, Hymek and a lot of other things.

 

The knurled wheels are sintered iron and almost impossible to machine down. I tried turning the serrated wheels many years ago using my Unimat 3. My lathe tools suddenly went very blunt.

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Looks like I boobed again. That will teachme to look first, but my excuse is that it's cold out in the conservatory where mine are stashed. I'll go and look and report back.

 

The insulated bush should slide on the axle without problems. The non-insulated wheels require brute force!

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Gentlemen (I assume),

 

We have succeeded!

 

The Dock Shunter now creeps happily through modern Peco points (both live and dead frog), without so much as a hesitation.

 

I've sorted the dirt-cheap Nellie out too, almost completely curing the out-of-true-ness of the wheels. Not a perfect starter yet, but I think that is down to stiction, which more cleaning should cure.

 

Many thanks.

 

Kevin

Edited by Nearholmer
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On 16/01/2020 at 21:19, Nearholmer said:

 

Thank the Good Lord for that!

 

Drifting by the afore-stated method will take place.

 

The flange-width is fine (well, not fine fine) for Peco points, I've checked that and have recently drifted a Nellie of the same vintage, which runs through them very smoothly now.

 

If I get this right, I can imagine building-up a small fleet of Dock Shunters!

Careful, they breed!

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12 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Gentlemen (I assume),

 

We have succeeded!

 

The Dock Shunter now creeps happily through modern Peco points (both live and dead frog), without so much as a hesitation.

 

I've sorted the dirt-cheap Nellie out too, almost completely curing the out-of-true-ness of the wheels. Not a perfect starter yet, but I think that is down to stiction, which more cleaning should cure.

 

Many thanks.

 

Kevin

 Nellie, the blue 1960s one, benefits from lower gearing,  The 1960s dodge was to use the single start TT worm instead of the two start 00 worm with the standard 00 axle gear to lower the gearing.    The worms are interchangable, use a puller or I use a blow lamp and a big dollop of luck to remove the worms.

Dead TT Jinties and the like provide the gears.  The TT Jinty is actually a nice 00 chassis with 6ft +6ft and a bit axle spacing if you can find suitable 00 axles, I have two and finding 00 axles for them is on my to do list

If you want to chuck money at it as few 0-4-0s exceeded 40 mph, Romford 40 to 1 or even 60:1 gears would be  good.  I think they fit without altering the motor mounting unlike the other  X04 chassis  where the motor has to be lowered. One of mine has Romford 16mm wheels and 40:1 gears, but I stole the X04 for something else so I can't be absolutely sure about the fit.

The Plastic bushes are a weak spot,  Not so much on the Dock shunter as on the steamers where you have to keep taking wheels on and off to get the quartering right. However the metal wheels will come loose if you don't align the splines when refitting, twist till they engage before bashing the wheel back on.

What do you need to know about 350HP Diesels.  I have a Wrenn one with Romford 60:1 gears. What a beast. Its so slow it waddles everywhere flat out with the motor revving its head off.   Hardly slows when it slips to a stand with a heavy train, much like the real thing.  It was absolutely rubbish as standard, It overheated and burned out its armature the first day I had it, (new 1985?)  I also have a standard H/D one which does about 120 MPH and overheats at the first sign of a train. Its awaiting the Romford cure, when I get the nerve to uncrimp the fly cranks.   

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The Nellies seem OK at slow running if they are clean and without excessive motor end-float. What bugs me about them is sticky starting if you increase the supply voltage very slowly, where the motor starts to turn, but will predictably stop with the armature at a particular position if the voltage (and hence armature current) is too low. It’s a combination of starting friction and, much more importantly, weak flux from the armature windings causing the armature to stop in a ‘mid cogged’ position. Among possible fixes is a neo magnet, which I might try on a gash motor, to increase the oppositional force between the fluxes.

 

The EE350 you’ve given good clues about, although I’m surprised you had such bad experience with a Wrenn one - I bought one new c1976, and it was very good.

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4 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

   The TT Jinty is actually a nice 00 chassis with 6ft +6ft and a bit axle spacing if you can find suitable 00 axles, I have two and finding 00 axles for them is on my to do list

 

 

Triang TT locos used 1/8" axles, so standard Romford, Markits, and Alan Gibson are suitable.

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I gather the Dublo DE shunter was a bit variable. I remember one review stating it to be awful and a later one where it was much improved (mine runs well).

The Tri-ang motor suffers from being only 3 pole (you couldn't expect anything else for the price), but normally they run quite acceptably.

 

IIRC the spacing for Romford gears is 9.5mm and Tri-ang 11mm (or more probably the imperial equivalent). Some means of fine adjustment never hurts, of course.

 

 

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Replacement Tri-ang insulating bushes for wheels have been made by Peter's Spares I believe.

 

Original bushes turn up on eBay as well.

 

Remember that there are two diameters, as Hornby Railways introduced the "stepped" axles, with a smaller diameter in the wheel, while remaining the same diameter in the bearings...

 

Sorry, but I can't remember the part numbers off hand. ;)

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I 'phoned Peter's Spares the other day, to understand which motor bogie spares are available, and was told that the only part they keep is the motor armature, which seemed a bit odd to me. they referred me to Triangman as a source of parts.

 

Another question: the later versions of the MB seem to have black plastic worm-wheel gears, which look as if they are integral mouldings onto a metal centre.

 

Anyone know when they changed from the earlier brass gears?

Is there any material difference in running quality between the two versions?

Did the pitch of the worm change, or arethe worms the same throughout and compatible with either type of worm-wheel?

 

(OK, that's three questions!)

 

Thanks in advance.

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Black plastic (or nylon) gear wheels are still a separate part, engaged onto the splines on the axle, as for the brass gears.

 

They are usually the same, tooth wise, as the brass gears.

 

I can't remember the date, but possibly early 1970s, for black plastic gears, but still with brass worms.

 

The later, new type (the part number was reused!) X.03 motor, with a black plastic (or nylon) worm uses a, usually silver grey, gear wheel with a different number of teeth, as the black plastic worm is a single start worm.

 

Hornby Railways stated that the gearing with the X.03 was more controllable.

 

I have found a couple of the X.03 type gears in black, which is confusing.

 

Originally, the X.03 type were made in a few colours, but black was meant to be only used for the X.04 type gears...

 

Later production wasn't so fussy about gear colours.

 

I think that most motor bogies went to the Ringfield motors and didn't get the single start worm and gear.

 

The later Lord of The Isles X.05 motors did get black plastic worms.

 

And the last of the Turntables, that used the same motor also got the plastic worms.

 

The replacement turntables used an X.03 type motor, but with a special brass worm.

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