Class 31 haulage of HST/91 hybrid sets.

[DavidBird]

A long time ago now, I was studying in Leeds.  It was the time when the 25kV wires had been put up as far as Doncaster on the ECML, and through to Leeds, but the Aire Valley and Harrogate routes where still un-wired, and even still had AB with semaphore signals.

The trains were at this time formed of the HST/91 hybrids, with the buffer-fitted HST powercar at one end, a HST rake of Mk3s and a Cl91 at the London end.

I remember ocassionally seeing the Bradford trains along the Aire Valley around Kirkstall in Leeds, they were hauled by a often very grubby class 31, even when the HST end was leading.  I heard/read that this was because the batteries on the 91 were not up to the job of completely powering up the 91 away from the 25kV, and presumably even when the HST end could be doing the driving, the 31 still had to get there to haul the train back.

 

Does anybody have any details of which 31s were used for this job, are there any photos out there?

Thanks

Edited April 15, 2022 by DavidBird

[Jonesy38]

A couple of finds on Flickr. It was normally Parcels sector 31s that did it, but others were used as well. It was booked for a 47/4, usually a generator (401-420.)

[Nova Scotian]

Following because this would make some great modelling - love those photos.

[45125]

On 15/04/2022 at 23:26, DavidBird said:

A long time ago now, I was studying in Leeds.  It was the time when the 25kV wires had been put up as far as Doncaster on the ECML, and through to Leeds, but the Aire Valley and Harrogate routes where still un-wired, and even still had AB with semaphore signals.

The trains were at this time formed of the HST/91 hybrids, with the buffer-fitted HST powercar at one end, a HST rake of Mk3s and a Cl91 at the London end.

I remember ocassionally seeing the Bradford trains along the Aire Valley around Kirkstall in Leeds, they were hauled by a often very grubby class 31, even when the HST end was leading.  I heard/read that this was because the batteries on the 91 were not up to the job of completely powering up the 91 away from the 25kV, and presumably even when the HST end could be doing the driving, the 31 still had to get there to haul the train back.

 

Does anybody have any details of which 31s were used for this job, are there any photos out there?

Thanks

With the 91 away from the wires normally the 91 would be isolated, ie pan down BIS out. The batteries on the 91s do not last very long with no charging, the control battery is there primarily  keep the thing going through neutral sections and for getting the pan up so no great capacity in them.

 

Al Taylor 

Edited April 17, 2022 by 45125

[DavidBird]

Thanks very much.  Nice photos,  just what I was looking for. 

14 hours ago, 45125 said:

With the 91 away from the wires normally the 91 would be isolated, ie pan down BIS out. The batteries on the 91s do not last very long with no charging, the control battery is there pretty to keep the thing going through neutral sections and for getting the pan up so no grey capacity in them.

 

Al Taylor 

Was there a need for loco haulage when the HST end was leading,  other than just to get the loco to where it was needed to haul the return with the 91 leading?

[45125]

1 hour ago, DavidBird said:

Thanks very much.  Nice photos,  just what I was looking for. 

Was there a need for loco haulage when the HST end was leading,  other than just to get the loco to where it was needed to haul the return with the 91 leading?

The loco was used to haul the set with the 91 leading, it made sense to run round at Bradford and use the the loco to drag it back to Leeds. It was booked for Brush 4 haulage so would be superior to a single power car. The power car was manned in both directions with a "fire warden". No doubt with a Brush 2 on the front a bit of assistance would be provided by the power car................

 

Al Taylor

Edited April 17, 2022 by 45125

[DavidBird]

Thanks to all who replied.  I've managed to track down another couple of photos on Flikr, although these are of 31 drags on diversions at the southern end of the ECML.

Was the formation of the coaching stock a standard HST (although with a buffered TGS)? 

Something like...

91/TGS/4xTS/TRUB/2xTF/43

 

[hexagon789]

On 16/05/2022 at 10:51, DavidBird said:

Thanks to all who replied.  I've managed to track down another couple of photos on Flikr, although these are of 31 drags on diversions at the southern end of the ECML.

Was the formation of the coaching stock a standard HST (although with a buffered TGS)? 

Something like...

91/TGS/4xTS/TRUB/2xTF/43

 

TRFB rather than TRUB by that point but otherwise spot on.

 

Not all the TGS had buffers by the way to work with the 91s. Some gained full conventional drawgear with drophead buckeyes but it was quickly decided that as coupling with the buckeye would be the usual manner of attaching the 91 there wasn't the need to bother with conventional drawgear and I understand only 4 of the 8 TDM compatible TGS were actually equipped with drawgear.

[DavidBird]

8 hours ago, hexagon789 said:

TRFB rather than TRUB by that point but otherwise spot on.

 

Not all the TGS had buffers by the way to work with the 91s. Some gained full conventional drawgear with drophead buckeyes but it was quickly decided that as coupling with the buckeye would be the usual manner of attaching the 91 there wasn't the need to bother with conventional drawgear and I understand only 4 of the 8 TDM compatible TGS were actually equipped with drawgear.

Thanks very much. That was going to be my next question. So I don't need to fit buffers to my TGS.

Do you have actual coach numbers by any chance?

[Coryton]

On 15/04/2022 at 23:26, DavidBird said:

A long time ago now, I was studying in Leeds.  It was the time when the 25kV wires had been put up as far as Doncaster on the ECML, and through to Leeds, but the Aire Valley and Harrogate routes where still un-wired, and even still had AB with semaphore signals.

The trains were at this time formed of the HST/91 hybrids, with the buffer-fitted HST powercar at one end, a HST rake of Mk3s and a Cl91 at the London end.

I remember ocassionally seeing the Bradford trains along the Aire Valley around Kirkstall in Leeds, they were hauled by a often very grubby class 31, even when the HST end was leading.  I heard/read that this was because the batteries on the 91 were not up to the job of completely powering up the 91 away from the 25kV, and presumably even when the HST end could be doing the driving, the 31 still had to get there to haul the train back.

 

Does anybody have any details of which 31s were used for this job, are there any photos out there?

Thanks

 

My recollection is that the train would make its way from Leeds to Bradford with the 43 leading and providing power.

Then after it reached Bradford a 47 would turn up light engine to couple up and drag it back to Leeds (in passenger service).

 

Now it was a long time ago and memories are notoriously unreliable, but I found this video which supports what I remember.

 

I do remember asking why they needed the 47 and being told that it was due to a lack of battery power on the 91. What I don't think I asked was why they didn't just use an HST on the Bradford service instead.

 

I also have a memory that one time the 47 never turned up and the HST+91 set managed to run back to Leeds under its own steam, so to speak. But I might be imagining that one.

 

[hexagon789]

8 hours ago, DavidBird said:

Thanks very much. That was going to be my next question. So I don't need to fit buffers to my TGS.

Do you have actual coach numbers by any chance?

8 TGS were modified to run with 91s or indeed any TDM equipped loco:

44021, 44056, 44058, 44059, 44086, 44097, 44098, 44101.

 

Of these five TGS had the Guards end fitted wwith conventional draw and buffing gear, drophead buckeye and two TDM jumpers.

 

The next converted had no buffers, standard HST "Alliance" coupling (essentially fixed buckeye) and two TDM jumpers

 

The final two converted also had no buffers, the standard HST Alliance coupling but also had only ONE TDM jumper on one side only.

 

These final three were also marked something like "Connection to Class 43 or 91 locomotive only, contact control for authorisation connect to any other locomotive type". Possibly due to the lack of conventional drawgear.

 

I've never been able to find a definitive list of which of the eight TGS received which treatment, but I did once see a chronological list of TGS conversions which could perhaps be paired to the information to give the likely situation.

 

Edited May 18, 2022 by hexagon789

[AMJ]

The 91 was always at the north end of the rake leaving King Cross even in the HST hybrid days.  

 

In August 1988 I was notified by a school friend that the 89 was on a train to London so we did it from Wakefield to Donny.

 

There were a few instances in the early days with issues where the 91 would be run around the stock at Leeds for the return trip to London blunt end first.  Seen on both HST and MkIV rakes.

 

There might have been some dragged that way round as well.

[45125]

6 hours ago, AMJ said:

The 91 was always at the north end of the rake leaving King Cross even in the HST hybrid days.  

 

In August 1988 I was notified by a school friend that the 89 was on a train to London so we did it from Wakefield to Donny.

 

There were a few instances in the early days with issues where the 91 would be run around the stock at Leeds for the return trip to London blunt end first.  Seen on both HST and MkIV rakes.

 

There might have been some dragged that way round as well.

Usually because the TDM had crashed and wouldn't reconfigure.

[DavidBird]

 

On 15/04/2022 at 23:26, DavidBird said:

...

The trains were at this time formed of the HST/91 hybrids, with the buffer-fitted HST powercar at one end, a HST rake of Mk3s and a Cl91 at the London end.

...

 

6 hours ago, AMJ said:

The 91 was always at the north end of the rake leaving King Cross even in the HST hybrid days.  

...

 

Of course the 91 was at the north end.  I'd forgotten about the reversal at Leeds - it was a long time ago!

[Coryton]

10 hours ago, DavidBird said:

Of course the 91 was at the north end.  I'd forgotten about the reversal at Leeds - it was a long time ago!

 

And an even longer time ago the Bradford to London trains didn't reverse because they used the Wortley Curve.