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magnets for X03/4 motors.


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Hi all,

I have a couple of these motors that could really do with new magnets. I know some people have use neodynium magnets in the past, but I have heard about possible problems with these magnets being too strong and burning out the motors. Is this so.

On another point I have looked for these magnets in the usual places and their price seems to have rocketed. You used to be able to get 5 for £10.00. Now the cheapest at over £10.00 each. Almost the cost of a working second hand motor. You can though buy quite cheaply small neodynium disc magnets about 1.5 cm x 3 mm in size. I was wondering if you could put one or two onto the original magnet to boost its power. Would this be safe for the motor. Any advice would be gratefully recieved.

I cannot afford to buy a remagnatizer from Ronald Dodd at the present so that option is out. Unless someone here knows how to remagnatize these magnets a different way.

Edited by cypherman
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  • cypherman changed the title to magnets for X03/4 motors.

The big solid block Super Neos are quite nasty especially when used with a three pole armature.   They are too strong.  I just find some smaller Super Neos , Usually those from dead computer disc drives, and put them in place of the block. Its not that simple as the fixing screw needs to be fitted and secured to hold the brush spring but small Super Neos and a few pieces of ferrous packing will sort it  Some discs have centre holes but the ones I have acquired were too small for the standard fixing bolt.    The Triang X04 magnets last for years, 40 years, trouble is the older ones are 60.... .   5 Poling the X04 with super Neos makes a nice motor, as standard with the standard magnet 5 poles are gutless.  I use shortened K's armatures as the K's magnets are poor and brushes and  motor design very poor.

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I acquired a Hornby-Dublo "Sir Nigel Gresley" with a horseshoe magnet chassis which had been modified to accept a large block neo magnet. In my view the magnet was just too strong and my solution was to replace it with a stack of small button neo magnets as in the photo below. I'm sure a similar arrangement could be sorted for X03/X04, or other open-frame, motors.

P1020617.JPG.9949663e311aff3587e8765c94ea923b.JPG

Later I embedded the magnets in body filler to make a more workmanlike looking ensemble, but that's unnecessary of course.

P1020621.JPG.557421762de8340de7f527bf671826f2.JPG

The chassis rolls along smoothly pulling just under 0.6 amps which, in my experience, is about par for these old, vertical armature Hornby-Dublo chassis

Edited by MikeCW
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10 hours ago, MikeCW said:

I acquired a Hornby-Dublo "Sir Nigel Gresley" with a horseshoe magnet chassis which had been modified to accept a large block neo magnet. In my view the magnet was just too strong and my solution was to replace it with a stack of small button neo magnets as in the photo below. I'm sure a similar arrangement could be sorted for X03/X04, or other open-frame, motors.

P1020617.JPG.9949663e311aff3587e8765c94ea923b.JPG

Later I embedded the magnets in body filler to make a more workmanlike looking ensemble, but that's unnecessary of course.

P1020621.JPG.557421762de8340de7f527bf671826f2.JPG

The chassis rolls along smoothly pulling just under 0.6 amps which, in my experience, is about par for these old, vertical armature Hornby-Dublo chassis

Hi Mike.

That is similar to what I was thinking. But I would just add one or two magnets to the sides of the existing magnet.

Thanks t all of you about confirming what I had heard about adding super neo block magnets. Any idea what size might be a good starting point.

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, stewartingram said:

Magnets shouldn't be removed from their keeper plates (ie motor frames) as loss of magnetism occurs. Do you have existing magnets in your motors?

(PM me if you need assistance)

Hi Stewart,  Yes they still have their original magnets in place. Other than Ronald Dodds very nicely made remagnatizer does any one know of any other remagnatizers out there that may be usable and cheaper.

Edited by cypherman
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Posted (edited)

Hi all,

OK I have just found these for sale at Peters Spares for X03/4 motors.

https://www.petersspares.com/peters-spares-ps138-Hornby-x03-x04-Hornby-dublo-wrenn-neo-magnet-pk1-neodymium.ir

Now this is what they are saying about these magnets

These magnets have been specifically designed to replace the magnets in the motors of model locomotives. As these magnets are made from the strongest magnetic material, they will provide much more torque than the alnico magnets historically used. What's more, they will never lose their magnetism. Bring your locomotive back to life simply by replacing your old magnet with these high-performance neodymium magnets.

Are these magnets OK to use or are they still too strong ?. As they are less than £5.00 each.

Edited by cypherman
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Go online and look for the small, round neo magnets that have a hole in the middle which is recessed for a screw. They are for mirror mounting. Ten for a fiver usually. Put 2 in an X04 with similar sized washers, normally 2, to pack them out. Just right!

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, 33C said:

Go online and look for the small, round neo magnets that have a hole in the middle which is recessed for a screw. They are for mirror mounting. Ten for a fiver usually. Put 2 in an X04 with similar sized washers, normally 2, to pack them out. Just right!

Hi 33C, Thanks for the info. I will look into getting some. Do you know what size they are as I can find several sizes? They also seem to have gone up in price on Amazon but they are still cheaper than the block neo's.

I have just found this web page about how to remagnetize magnets. I have 2 extremely strong neo magnets that I have taken out of an old Hard Drive. I will try this trick with an old magnet and see if it works. The only thing it will cost me is £3.89 for a compass.

https://magnetpartner.com/how-to-remagnetize-magnet

Edited by cypherman
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Can't you lay a needle in a bowl of water on the surface tension to find North (Google it/YouTube video) ?

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Posted (edited)

Hi 33C,

I have found these on Amazon and think they may be the ones you mean. Elsatsang 20pcs New 10x3mm Neodymium Disc Super Strong Rare Earth Magnets With Holes 3mm. They are £7.99 for 20. I will put a micrometer on one of the bolts shaft to see what size thay are.

That is very true about the compass. Really cheap as chips method.... :). Not done that since I was a kid a long time ago.

Edited by cypherman
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The neodymium ring magnets are my solution for Tri-ang motors. They will also do Dublo of course. For the Tri-ang motor bogies I have found a couple of 6mm cube neos stuck on to the original tired magnet will bring it back to life.

Tri-ang motor magnets seem to need assistance much less than Dublo or is this just me?

Tri-ang motor screws are 6 BA.

Edited by Il Grifone
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My own view triang magnets on X04 are less likely to need remagnetiseing than Hornby Dublo, the motors are more likely to stuff from internal wire problems due to extreme wear, dirt and lack of maintenance. Main problem shortage of suitable brushes.

 

I have remagnetised one or two using simple home made coils and a car battery/arc welder and had reasonable success, did follow Ron Dodd posts on HRCA website years ago very informative

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, locomad2 said:

My own view triang magnets on X04 are less likely to need remagnetiseing than Hornby Dublo, the motors are more likely to stuff from internal wire problems due to extreme wear, dirt and lack of maintenance. Main problem shortage of suitable brushes.

 

I have remagnetised one or two using simple home made coils and a car battery/arc welder and had reasonable success, did follow Ron Dodd posts on HRCA website years ago very informative

Hi Locomad2, Brushes are not really a problem now. Peters Spares have them made for them. I have bought several packs from them over the past few years. Look for:

Peters Spares PS8 Replacement Triang Hornby X67 Carbon Brushes X1 Pair, For X03 X04 EMB Motors. They have gone up a bit in price since I last bought some and are now £3.99 a pair.

Edited by cypherman
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  • RMweb Gold
Posted (edited)

I've kept out of this one but seeing as my name has been mentioned - here's my experiences:

  • Full size Neo replacement magnets have no noticeable negative impact on X04/3 motors. The bearings are VERY substantial and far from making the motors "coggy", the improved magnetic field makes them run cooler and smoother. The more fixed magnetism present the less current is needed to derive a given torque.
  • X04 magnets can be removed safely with an iron or steel keeper, personally I used to slide the magnet out into an adjacent spare motor frame sitting on an old triang tender weight before I got the Ron Dodds Magnetiser. Now I strip down motors with gay abandon knowing I'll remag them anyway 😉
  • Triang motor bogies seem to be more susceptible to loss of magnetism than X04's

These days EVERY loco that comes through my hands that has an Alnico magnet is zapped with the magnetiser as a matter of course. Some customers still specify a neo replacement magnet as they like the shiny appearance or the improved and permanent magnetism. I've refurbished hundreds of X04's over the years and have never had a complaint when so fitted with a neo magnet, quite the opposite in fact - http://redgatemodels.co.uk/?page_id=100

Edited by RedgateModels
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The only issue I have had is that on my Wrenn 08 the magnet is so strong that it attracts and lifts the tension lock coupling hook at the cab end!  Having said that the extra low down torque has improved the slow speed running no end - just what you need for a shunter.

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Locomotives don't really need a hook on their tension locks or fit a plastic Mainline one. (i still have a few items with tension locks, but my standard is the Peco/HD knuckle type. The Dublo 08 has a plastic version of this. It is an alternative fitting on Wrenn ones.

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I have quite a big fleet of locos, and for ages I resisted buying a magnetiser. 

 

Eventually I bought one, and it was well worth the price. I've already lost count of how many locos I've used it on, but in the long run its far cheaper than buying the neodymium magnets if you have enough locos to use it on.

 

I've found the triang 6 wheel (class 31 and 37) bogies often benefit most from it, along with anything Hornby Dublo. Most X04 motors last well but even then many show an improved performance when remagnetised. 

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I did buy the Ron Dodds remagnetiser, as I have quite a few Triang locos, and am very pleased with it. Once remagnetised I can see very little difference in performance between a remagnetised Triang magnet and the substitute neodymium rare earth ones. It may be my imagination, but the remagnetised originals do seem to run very slightly smoother than those with the replacement neo magnets. So for me it was a good investment as I have bought quite a few Triang locos with motor bogies as "non-runners" for repair. I can now take them apart, replace any missing items, some have been missing the bearings or oil retaining pads, clean off any corrosion, reassemble it and remagnetise it to restore them to "as new" performance. 

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Tri-ang motors are almost indestrucible; Dublo are a bit more delicate. as are Trix*. All will still be around after today's stuff has been consigned to landfill.

* I make an exception for the sequence reverser, but a bridge rectifier soon fixes that! (4x 1N4007. Other diodes are available but these are cheap are reliable.)

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Later Tri-ang motors don't have the oil pads, as they have oil retaining bearings (as have some Dublo motors*). I could never really see the point, as the rest of the mechanism requires regular maintenance.

 

* They made a big deal over this with the 2-6-4T, as with its useless magnetic shunt speed control device. The fact that they have driving wheels of the correct diameter with accurate spokes was never mentioned. The model was let down rather by the pony and bogie wheels and the dreadful chimney (To be fair they corrected the chimney later on - I think there are still a few Wrenn spares left - I have still to fit the one I bought some years ago....) Unusually (most are in mid-gear) it is modelled in reverse gear. (Yet another good reason for modelling the GWR. Tucked away between the frames the vavle gear setting is irrelevant, There was an article in the model press (many years ago when the real thing was still around) on fitting working gear to a BR 2-6-2T. It required S scale to give enough room!)

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All my Triang locos are either pre-1972 models (the Triang Railways or Triang Hornby period) or are the run-out of those designs in the immediate post 1971 period.

 

All my X.04 motors have phosphor bronze bearings and oil retaining pads. On the X.04 the front bearing held the armature shaft in place, being sandwiched between the worm gear and the commutator, the bearings also held the armature shaft in place.

 

On the Mk II bogie, versions A-G, the phosphor bronze bearings also held the armature in place but, unlike the X.04, the Mk II design limited the armature shaft's fore and aft movement by means of a ball bearing that sat at each end of the armature shaft inside the phosphor bronze bearing. That is why there is a dome in the metal clip that holds the oil retaining pad in place as that partly houses the ball bearing.

 

The Mk III motor bogie, first used in 1961 on the Budd Railcar and later the Hymek had bearings to retain the armature in place, but without the oil retaining pads.

 

The Mk VII motor bogie, which shares the same basic design of the Mk III, dispensed with the metal bearings completely. This was first seen in 1961 in the OO range on the EM2, the Mk VIIA version, followed by the Mk VIIB as used on the Classes 31 and 37. On the Mk VII the armature shaft was fitted with two plastic sleeves with locating "ears", one on each side of the armature and commutator assembly, immediately adjacent to their respective worm gear. The ears on the sleeve slotted into grooves on the chassis holding the sleeves in a fixed position. Thus the sleeves limited the armature shaft's fore and aft movement and also held the armature shaft in place vertically. I don't know if you'd call these sleeves "oil retaining bearings" or not, but I can't recall the instructions that came with my EM2 telling me to lubricate the armature shaft where it passed through the nylon sleeve. Personally, I think they are better described as "oil-less".

 

All these designs were swept away eventually by the tender drive era, and also by the ongoing need to reduce the cost and simplfy the design and reduce assembly time of the motors by designing out components wherever possible, as exemplified by the evolution of the basic Rovex motor bogie design from the MkII to the very similar Mk III and Mk VII. designs.

 

Having rebuilt several Mk II and Mk VII bogies, the Mk VII is far easier and quicker to take apart and reassemble than the Mk II as the armature just drops into place.

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I think the oil retaining pad was dropped about the time the X.04 gained a plastic gear and became the X.03 (second version - why not X.05?).

I have seen the bearings described as "oil retaining", but whether this is actually the case I don't know (not being a metallurgist). I gather the metal is more porous and absorbs the oil.

I have always found a drop of oil to improve matters (even with Dublo 4MT tanks), but I suppose a lifetime of fifty-plus years was not really expected.

Edited by Il Grifone
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The X.05 number had already been taken, by the OO gauge version of the XT.60 motor, with the twin start brass worm, as used in the Lord Of The Isles, Caledonian Railway 123, and the R.408 Turntable (The best turntable that Rovex has made to date! IMHO).

Screenshot_20220803-210725_Chrome.jpg.e5e99ec8c36caea712fea81e477e6269.jpg

 

The motor lineage started with the Zenith motor, used in the original Rovex Plastics Princess locomotive, with an integral gear box, and a vertical, disk,  commutator.

 

The X.01 design is basically the same, but without the gearbox.

Screenshot_20220803-205128_Chrome.jpg.4b11200949507d6163bad5d9b30a96d3.jpg

The X.02 design has a horizontal, drum, commutator.

Screenshot_20220803-205216_Chrome.jpg.285047989c30e6c36b3a8e9926cd4c87.jpg

The original X.03 preceded the X.04, and had a few versions, the main difference being in the bearings.

This was the first motor to be removed from the chassis without dismantling, the previous designs being sandwiched by the plate frames.

Some earlier X.03 versions have no oil pads, and the rear bearing is a raised part of the back plate.

The front bearings have been seen to have the mounting bracket mounted 'vertically', rather than the usual horizontal mounting, which allows oil to be dropped into the bearing from above.

The front bearings were the first to gain oil pads, so some X.03 motors only have the one front pad.

The rear pads came a bit later...

The X.04 Service Sheets...

Screenshot_20220803-205332_Chrome.jpg.12d310a2a417626cbfb1ae249138f706.jpg

 

Screenshot_20220803-205027_Chrome.jpg.bc707b7c59698db0bbc80f0d47525c79.jpg

 

The X.04 had a few modifications, before becoming Officially the X.03 (New Type.)

First, the armature shaft was reduced in length, to be the same length as the Scalextric motor of that time.

This meant that the brass worm, which has a taper to the hole the armature shaft fits into, had to be mounted 'backwards'. That is, with the smaller hole at the motor end. The new armature shaft was too short to grip properly if the worm was put on the right way around!

Screenshot_20220803-210617_Chrome.jpg.e5f188879c8ceef2280810aeed790381.jpg

Then, the felt pads were deleted.

I don't know if the material of the actual bearings was changed, (I suspect not...) but the bearings retained the groove to fit the oil pads...

Screenshot_20220803-210505_Chrome.jpg.71017e1e6f462fc3affd1b0669583ac5.jpg

 

Screenshot_20220720-211120_Chrome.jpg.288b3c003102958d647d3e16ef9a2d43.jpg

 

The fully fledged X.03 (New Type) is basically a late type X.04, but with the black nylon? (Delrin?) (plastic) single start worm.

Screenshot_20220720-211218_Chrome.jpg.215aaaa5bb4189b7e1f68172554275dc.jpg

 

Screenshot_20220720-211249_Chrome.jpg.097159b7be6980fac27a992cbaaa874a.jpg

 

I think that some of the X.05 motors also gained the black plastic single start worm. I wonder if these would be "X.06"?

 

The small motors, introduced with the 1980s Super Strong Pulling Power (SSPP) 0-6-0 chassis were, I believe, known as "Type 7".

Screenshot_20220803-212103_Chrome.jpg.999494773ed0148db02cc489487cd405.jpg

 

Screenshot_20220803-212245_Chrome.jpg.96e993fb925e2903288c31550f274730.jpg

 

🐉🙋🏼‍♀️

Edited by Ruffnut Thorston
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