GWR Wagon Oddities

[London cambrian]

I don't know about earlier years but certainly by the early '60s the various S&T vehicles seemed to be moved about together from job to job although the painters' vehicles always seemed to stay together and might well have been moved as a short train as they included bogie coaching stock.

 

And no, it isn't a brake van so it would have to be in a train which has a brakevan.

 

I'd tend to agree, most vehicles of this sort of type would tend to be required at odd times, or only moved periodically, so unless there was a big batch going somwhere they'd be formed into ordinary freight trains mostly. However if there was a permenant way train going that way, or certainly even on other railways, ther was no reason they wouldnt form such vehicles into any type of train, including ballast. But it was more likely to be coincidental it was in the train, not usually there for an associated reason, if you see what i mean. On some railways if particular vehicles were required at specific places, they would more than likely be attached to the next train going that way. Certainly round london, on the GCR london extension i have heard tales of the returning empty fish vans being tripped across london in the small hours of the morning on the back of permenant way trains on the old metropolitan railway so they could be taken back to grimsby for the morning catch.

 

But essentially vehicles like this are in the main considered as stock fit to run in any train, including passenger (unsure of the GWs policy on them) so you may well find them in ordinary pick up goods trains.

 

 

A point of query, Stationmaster mentioned painters vehicles, is that literally painters or am i missing something there?

 

Cheers

 

Mark

Edited June 4, 2013 by London cambrian

[Garethp8873]

Speaking of GWR Wagon Oddities, this I know has come up in other threads and comments before but has anyone recently seen the GWR Pollen C and E that have come up on ebay? Link to seller here. I do remember seeing these when they were on sale via somewhere in the USA but now these are on at a more sensible price, I maybe tempted into getting one. Probably will be the Pollen E as I have seen them at Didcot. Speaking of the Didcot Pollens, why are they still in that all grey livery?

 

Garethp8873.

[Castle]

Hi Gareth,

 

Yes, the 81E Pollens are still in plain all over grey. They were repainted for free by the film company that shot Sherlock Homes II there a couple of years back. As they were originally designed as gun barrel wagons, it was great to see the film company load them with replica gun barrels (albeit of a supposed German origin!) for what must have been the first time in many years.

 

All the best,

 

Castle

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Was 'Coral' still a legitimate wagon/telegraph code in BR days?

On the subject of oddity, is anything known of how these telegraphic codes calling a vehicle for a particular load by something unrelated came about? I can guess at reasons, though other more prosaic railway offices managed with telegraphic codes largely either directly related to the load, 'glass', 'gunset', 'grain', or vehicle characteristics, 'quad', 'lowfit', 'refrig'.

[The Stationmaster]

I'd tend to agree, most vehicles of this sort of type would tend to be required at odd times, or only moved periodically, so unless there was a big batch going somwhere they'd be formed into ordinary freight trains mostly. However if there was a permenant way train going that way, or certainly even on other railways, ther was no reason they wouldnt form such vehicles into any type of train, including ballast. But it was more likely to be coincidental it was in the train, not usually there for an associated reason, if you see what i mean. On some railways if particular vehicles were required at specific places, they would more than likely be attached to the next train going that way. Certainly round london, on the GCR london extension i have heard tales of the returning empty fish vans being tripped across london in the small hours of the morning on the back of permenant way trains on the old metropolitan railway so they could be taken back to grimsby for the morning catch.

 

But essentially vehicles like this are in the main considered as stock fit to run in any train, including passenger (unsure of the GWs policy on them) so you may well find them in ordinary pick up goods trains.

 

 

A point of query, Stationmaster mentioned painters vehicles, is that literally painters or am i missing something there?

 

Cheers

 

Mark

Yes, literally painters - as in those who apply paint to things.  As far as I know the only dept which definitely had some were the S&T whose painting gang (possibly more than one gang) moved round the Western painting signals and signalboxes and would set up base at a suitable point for covering the area they were working on.  I can remember them spending some time in the old Lambourn bay at Newbury but alas haven't got any pics of the vehicles - which included a clerestory coach (possibly ex Camping Coach?) as the living accommodation plus a couple of other vehicles.  

 

I believe there were other S&T gangs using old vehicles for accommodation as well as during the Reading resignalling scheme in 1965 an old 4 wheel coach in use for staff accommodation of some sort appeared at Didcot (all I need to do is find the pic which I took of it) and various other vehicles seemed to come and go from Reading at times.

[Penrhos1920]

Speaking of GWR Wagon Oddities, this I know has come up in other threads and comments before but has anyone recently seen the GWR Pollen C and E that have come up on ebay? Link to seller here. I do remember seeing these when they were on sale via somewhere in the USA but now these are on at a more sensible price, I maybe tempted into getting one.

 

Garethp8873.

 

Have you seen my models of the Pollen C half way down this page:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/62835-ebay-gwr-pollen-cs-and-es-for-sale/page-2

 

I'm tempted to do the Pollen E but I'm not sure whether the models available are representative of what was running in 1920?

[37079]

Also I was wondering whether the current OO Flangeways Mermaids would be suitable for a GWR transformation at all?

 

Hi Gareth,

 

Above solebar level they are identical, but the GWR version would have 2-shoe unfitted morton brakegear (as did the first BR diagram 1/573) whereas the flangeway model appears to have the later 8-shoe clasp brake vacuum-fitted brakegear which looks quite distinctively different. The Cambrian kit also features the later brakegear, but being a kit is probably a better starting point for modification (and has a more prototypical 'see through' underframe as well).

 

Mike

[Dazzler Fan]

 I'm tempted to do the Pollen E but I'm not sure whether the models available are representative of what was running in 1920?

 

Richard,

 

Your Pollen C model was specially drawn for EM with Pendon in mind, and yours is in FUD.

The tops of the wheel arches provided bearing surfaces for loads to move and the "lump" of an

RSJ on the turntable was provided in the model to match this.

 

We have worked as close as practicable for the manufacturing process from the NRM Drawings.

 

The E is available only in OO. The model offered is the pair 84997 & 85000.

 

The center wagons pre 1930 rebuild, 84998 & 84999 are also available on application, to assemble

the full 4-wagon configuration. They have the handbrake in the middle of the side plate. Both pair have

interconnecting brake handle rods. There may be problems with these 6 wheel models on sharp curves.

There is no room for side axle play, and we are in the process of putting flangeless center wheels on the

sprue, as an option to filing off a set of flanges. This pair may be redrawn with the buffer ends conversion

if there is sufficient interest.

 

The E turntables are modeled from the current Didcot wagons.

 

The OO models listed on eBay are VAT Incl. ex. Shapeways in WSF with less defined rivet detail and a FUD

sprue of small parts sent under separate cover. All OO models are supplied with sprue, wheels, and couplings

to give a rolling model. The model require ballast. On shapeways.com the items are available in FUD for the

extra rivet detail - and no beer money for a year!

 

There is currently a set of Colliery Sheave Wheels available, as an exercise in pushing the process to the limits

for detail at this scale.

 

Other models are in development.

 

Noel

 

(January 2014 - Pollen E 84997-84998 both Pre & Post 1930 are now available in 3D OO Prints)

Edited January 15, 2014 by Dazzler Fan

[Garethp8873]

Just a quick message to say I had an update on my question regarding the CORAL A at Didcot today:

 

Hi Gareth. Here is the reply from our Carriage & Wagon Dept. The Coral A is privately owned and, as such, any restoration or conservation work is the responsibility of the owner.

[buffalo]

Could I return to the CC diagram tool vans for a moment? I have a few, possibly difficult, questions about CC1 and CC3 in particular.  Atkins et al. (1986 combined ed.) have two photos of CC2 Pooley vans, one as built in 1899 with small G.W.R livery, and one in 1940 with shirtbutton. They also have one of 80981. a CC7 as built in 1913. In his "Appendix", Russell also has a couple of CC7s, one, 14992, probably as built in 1915 in large GW and one in 1950 with the BR number DW80987. His information about numbers is incorrect, though, as Atkins et al. list two lots making a total of ten of this diagram.

 

1. Photos: does anyone know of any photos of CC1 or CC3 (the six-wheel predecessor of CC7)? I'm particularly interested in pre-1904 livery and the Signal Dept. labelling.
2. Allocation: CC7 80981 is labelled for SIGNAL DEP^T / Reading Signal Works, 14992 has SIGNAL DEP^T / SHREWSBURY, and DW80987 has SIGNAL DEP^T / TYSELEY. Any information about allocations for CC1 and CC3 would be very helpful. Failing that, which locations had Signal Dept. outposts that might have had either of these vans around 1900-1910?
3. Colour: were they always black?

 

Any thoughts will be welcome, as would further sightings of CC2 and CC7, preferably in their earlier days (I'm aware of Paul Bartlett's later photos).

 

Nick

[The Stationmaster]

West Ealing had vehicles in later years Nick but I'm not sure when it opened although I would have thought around the turn of the 19th/20th centuries.  According to old minute books there was an S&T presence at Exeter at one time and probably Newport although that might be later than the period you are interested in.

[buffalo]

West Ealing had vehicles in later years Nick but I'm not sure when it opened although I would have thought around the turn of the 19th/20th centuries.  According to old minute books there was an S&T presence at Exeter at one time and probably Newport although that might be later than the period you are interested in.

 

Thanks, Mike. I was rather hoping there might have been one in the Bristol area which might make the choice straightforward...

 

Hi Nick

You might find some photo of what you are looking for on www.vintagecarriagestrust.org

81C

Thanks, several larger/later tool and riding vans, mostly the type that would accompany breakdown cranes, but I couldn't find any of these types.

 

Nick

[Garethp8873]

From what I know there are three steel bodied Tool Vans still around. Two belong to the 813 Fund (80982 at the SVR and 16908 at a private site in Evesham) and a third at Tyesley (14984). Of the three I have only seen 80982 as the roof of this wagon is currently being worked on at the SVR and is also the office of the Wagon Group. As seen on the GWR 813 website, 16908 is in a very bad state of affairs. As for 14984, bar one photograph in a book I haven't this wagon yet. As for diagrams, 80982 is a Diagram CC7, 16908 is a CC2 and 14984 is a CC3.

 

Garethp8873.

Edited June 8, 2013 by Garethp8873

[micklner]

Didcot last year

 

 

 

 

[buffalo]

From what I know there are three steel bodied Tool Vans still around. Two belong to the 813 Fund (80982 at the SVR and 16908 at a private site in Evesham) and a third at Tyesley (14984). Of the three I have only seen 80982 as the roof of this wagon is currently being worked on at the SVR and is also the office of the Wagon Group. As seen on the GWR 813 website, 16908 is in a very bad state of affairs. As for 14984, bar one photograph in a book I haven't this wagon yet. As for diagrams, 80982 is a Diagram CC7, 16908 is a CC2 and 14984 is a CC3.

 

Garethp8873.

 

Thanks, Gareth. I was aware of the two owned by the 813 fund. The CC2 is the same one as on Paul Bartlett's site (see his post at the top of this page), and here's the CC7. I hadn't realised there was a surviving CC3, though, and it does appear to have been rather camera shy. This is the best I could find in a quick search. In which book did you find the photo?

 

Incidentally, armed with the numbers, I found the records for these on vintagecarriagetrust.org as suggested earlier by 81C: 16908, 14984 and 80982. Hardly surprising that I didn't find them earlier using their search mechanism as the CC3 and CC7 are listed as "6w Non-Vent Van" and "4w Non-Vent Van".

 

.All very interesting, but not much nearer to answering my questions

 

Nick

[Garethp8873]

Thanks, Gareth. I was aware of the two owned by the 813 fund. The CC2 is the same one as on Paul Bartlett's site (see his post at the top of this page), and here's the CC7. I hadn't realised there was a surviving CC3, though, and it does appear to have been rather camera shy. This is the best I could find in a quick search. In which book did you find the photo?

 

Incidentally, armed with the numbers, I found the records for these on vintagecarriagetrust.org as suggested earlier by 81C: 16908, 14984 and 80982. Hardly surprising that I didn't find them earlier using their search mechanism as the CC3 and CC7 are listed as "6w Non-Vent Van" and "4w Non-Vent Van".

 

.All very interesting, but not much nearer to answering my questions

 

Nick

 

Hi Nick,

 

If you need any photographic references of 80982, please let me know as I have one a many photos of this wagon on Flickr.

 

I do remember that photograph of 14989 you linked to on Flickr, I've seen it before. There is another photo of this wagon in the GWR Wagons Before 1948 Vol 2. on p58.

 

Garethp8873.

[buffalo]

If you need any photographic references of 80982, please let me know as I have one a many photos of this wagon on Flickr...

Thanks, Gareth. I already have quite a few of 80982 in its preserved state, though if you do come across any of CC1, CC3 or CC7 in GWR service with Signal Dept allocations other than Reading, Shrewsbury or Tyseley, I'd be very interested to know.

 

Nick

[Dazzler Fan]

Didcot last year

 

3.jpg

 

Interesting to see in this pic. that the rebuild with buffer ends was not symetrical. about

the middle coupling.

 

The handbrake handles betray that different ends of each pre1930 wagon were rebuilt

- not being constant in the brake position..

[Castle]

This pair may be redrawn with the buffer ends conversion

if there is sufficient interest.

Hi Noel,

 

I would like to register some interest for a full set as preserved please! Anyone else? Great opportunity to have some really unusual wagons being offered here and I would have thought that the abillities to run all of the later versions in BR livery would sell well.

 

All the best,

 

Castle

[hmrspaul]

Hi Noel,

 

I would like to register some interest for a full set as preserved please! Anyone else? Great opportunity to have some really unusual wagons being offered here and I would have thought that the abillities to run all of the later versions in BR livery would sell well.

 

All the best,

 

Castle

In later years BR ran them with GW lettering, POLLEN E  http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/gwrgirdwagpollen  They were NOT preserved at that time.

 

Paul

[London cambrian]

Hi Paul

 

Do you know why they were being carried on flat wagons at the time of your photographs? Were they on transfer to the NRM or something at the time?

[Dazzler Fan]

In later years BR ran them with GW lettering, POLLEN E  http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/gwrgirdwagpollen  They were NOT preserved at that time.

 

Paul

The livery is entirely the choice of the modeller.

 

The models follow the pre-1930 84998 & 84999, all with current Didcot turntables.

to form that 4 wagon rake. - because I model that era.

 

The pictures posted above are today's post-1930 rebuild, when buffer ends were added to

84998 & 84999.

 

 

- I will only do these if there is demand.

 

Castle's, "A full set" would therefore be today's individually running two buffered pairs , whereas

my model is the true pre-1930 4-wagon set.

 

The items are available VAT inclusive on eBay.

 

(January 2014 - 84997-84998 now available Post 1930, per above pictures)

Edited January 15, 2014 by Dazzler Fan

[Fat Controller]

Ref the Coral A; I visited my chum Liz, the erstwhile Wolverhampton Archivist, and happened to mention the subject of plate-glass production on GWR territory. 'How about Chance |Brothers at Smethwick?',  she said. Apparently they were a major player in the plate glass market, having developed rolled plate glass, and produced it until 1976 at their plant in Smethwick.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chance_Brothers gives you some more gen on them.

[London cambrian]

I know whats being stamped on the boxes for inside my 5 inch gauge coral then...

 

Does mean i'm going to have to make the inner crate frames now :/

[Castle]

Hi London Cambrian,

 

You wouldn't have to make the inner frames if you draped a tarpaulin over the load... In one of the pictures Paul showed me it had the BR version of the CORAL with a tarpaulin marked BR covering the crates. If you had a big enough load in it so that the tarpaulin went right over the outer frames you wouldn't see the lack of the inner ones.

 

It might obscure he markings on the crate though!

 

All the best,

 

Castle