the penguin of doom's Blog

Hi Sean,

 

Wanted to copy&paste my original response to here, but can't access the old RMweb at the mo!

 

In response to your question RE valve gear and chassis, the Bachmann N class model has valve gear of a very similar type to the L1, and uses 5ft 6in drivers as opposed the L1's 5ft 2in drivers (difference of 4in in reality, not sure what that is in scale). Adding a four wheel bogie to that chassis would give you a reasonable representation of the L1 "look" but I am unsure of the wheel spacing of the N against the L1.

 

Kind Regards,

 

Simon

You need the V1/V3 boiler, not the B1. Boiler length of V1 is correct, and you'll "only" need to lengthen the firebox by about 3mm.

Right then.

 

Seems like I'll be needing a cheap V1 then. This kind of puts the project back a bit, but on the plus side, my mindless optimism says that I may end up with the right size side tanks or somewhere thereabouts. Also on the plus side, the valve gear may be somewhere near correct although I have no doubt whatsoever that the wheel spacing, (or the 2-6 bit of the 2-6-2) will be completely wrong.

 

I'm just not that lucky you see.....

 

Cheers for now.

 

Sean.

Thompson driving wheelbase was something like 6'6" x 7'0 - I'll check.

Thompson driving wheelbase was something like 6'6" x 7'0 - I'll check.

 

Any news Horsetan? I knw the sites being down a while, so don't want to appear over eager? I think Mali has an LMS 2-6-0 chassis for me which has the right wheel base, (possibly a 2MT?), but the cylinders/valve gear is wrong and I'd like to try and find the right ones if possible?

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

Driving wheelbase is 6'6" x 7'0".

 

Full wheelbase according to RCTS 9A is: 8'7" + 6'6" +7'0" + 6'2" + 6'3". All you need to do is find the nearest chassis.......

 

Total length over buffers is quoted as being 43' 4".

Hi Sean and Horsetan,

 

Not sure what to make of it, but I posted a few thoughts above which seem to have been completely ignored! RE valve gear, you may want to take a look at the Bachmann N class model.

 

Cheers,

 

Simon

 

EDIT: and here's my post from the old RMweb...

 

This may be a bit pie in the sky sean...but...

 

The Bachmann N class engine has valve gear which are a very close match for the L1. Would it be feasible to use a set of these with, say, a suitable chassis?

 

In fact, looking at the N class chassis - you could rewheel it and retain the valve gear and cylinders perhaps?

 

links to pics - L1 against N class:

 

L1

 

Bachmann N class

 

I'm suddenly wondering if this could be a potential resin kit for the N class - add a rear bogie and you'd have your 2-6-4T (the downside being I'm not sure how close the wheel spacing is for the N class against the L1).

 

EDIT: The N class wheels are 5ft 6, the L1's are 5ft 2. Difference of 4in - again, looking at the wheel spacing, I can't find the figures :|

Hi Sean and Horsetan,

 

Not sure what to make of it, but I posted a few thoughts above which seem to have been completely ignored! RE valve gear, you may want to take a look at the Bachmann N class model.

 

Cheers,

 

Simon

 

EDIT: and here's my post from the old RMweb...

 

 

Sorry Simon.

 

I'm not ignoring you, and you make a valid point with the N class. What I'm considering is can I gat a set of N class valve gear and use it with the 2MT chassis? Then I could use the V1 body. Due to the site being a bit up in the air and my life being of a similar style at the mo, I have managed to overlook your post.

 

Still looking at all options though and I'll be doing some measuring and comparison of photo's in good time though.

 

In the mean time, I'm concentrating on finishing my peaks..... Brush painting 8 of them is taking some time I can tell you!

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

Hi Sean,

 

Totally understandable, my apologies for being a tad grumpy - I'm currently working on a dissertation which isn't writing itself as I wanted it to...!

 

I'm considering joining you on building an L1, perhaps vaguely in parallel. I've always liked the look of them (and if I build one, like the Clan and A2 before it either Bachmann or Hornby will make it next year!) and I do have an N class model spare.

 

I'm considering re-wheeling the N class chassis and using that in combination with a spare V3 I have (motor is burnt out and was cheap second hand).

 

The snag for me would be sourcing a suitable rear bogie. I'm fairly certain that I could use the front truck from the V3 on the N class with little modifications if I went for it.

 

But I have to get a certain stirling single out the way first!

 

In any event, I think using the N class valve gear is the way to go for accurate valve gear. I didn't realise how incredibly close it was until I started looking at some comparison photographs earlier last week. The driving wheel size (4in in real life, not sure of the scale down but it must be a tiny difference) seems okay for my own project, but wheel spacing of the N against the L1 (thanks horsetan, just noted your post with regards L1 spacing)could be similar enough for a bash.

 

Kind Regards,

 

Simon

 

EDIT:

 

With thanks to the LNER encyclopedia and SEMG, these pics are intended for educational and comparative reasons only.

 

 

I've tried to scale them together in order to form a proper side on view for each engine.

 

Straight away the N class valve gear strikes me as being spot on for an L1. Some bashing of the cylinder (or complete replacement?) would provide a perfectly reasonable representation of the L1's. The wheelbase - I'm not sure. The rear driving wheel on the N class looks a shade too far away to be spot on, but has got to be fairly close to the L1s. I've included the V3 to show that perhaps the boiler barrel needs a little lengthening (edit - no, its just the dome needs moving forward one band). The cab front looks almost identical (and of course a new set of side tanks and rear coal bunker would have to be made).

 

Perhaps the body and cab from the V3, the front pony from the V3, the Chassis of the N class and its valve gear, and the tanks/bunker/cab scratch built with a suitable 4 wheel rear bogie found would make a reasonable L1?

Hi Sean,

 

Totally understandable, my apologies for being a tad grumpy - I'm currently working on a dissertation which isn't writing itself as I wanted it to...!

 

I'm considering joining you on building an L1, perhaps vaguely in parallel. I've always liked the look of them (and if I build one, like the Clan and A2 before it either Bachmann or Hornby will make it next year!) and I do have an N class model spare.

 

I'm considering re-wheeling the N class chassis and using that in combination with a spare V3 I have (motor is burnt out and was cheap second hand).

 

The snag for me would be sourcing a suitable rear bogie. I'm fairly certain that I could use the front truck from the V3 on the N class with little modifications if I went for it.

 

But I have to get a certain stirling single out the way first!

 

In any event, I think using the N class valve gear is the way to go for accurate valve gear. I didn't realise how incredibly close it was until I started looking at some comparison photographs earlier last week. The driving wheel size (4in in real life, not sure of the scale down but it must be a tiny difference) seems okay for my own project, but wheel spacing of the N against the L1 (thanks horsetan, just noted your post with regards L1 spacing)could be similar enough for a bash.

 

Kind Regards,

 

Simon

 

EDIT:

 

With thanks to the LNER encyclopedia and SEMG, these pics are intended for educational and comparative reasons only.

 

 

I've tried to scale them together in order to form a proper side on view for each engine.

 

Straight away the N class valve gear strikes me as being spot on for an L1. Some bashing of the cylinder (or complete replacement?) would provide a perfectly reasonable representation of the L1's. The wheelbase - I'm not sure. The rear driving wheel on the N class looks a shade too far away to be spot on, but has got to be fairly close to the L1s. I've included the V3 to show that perhaps the boiler barrel needs a little lengthening (edit - no, its just the dome needs moving forward one band). The cab front looks almost identical (and of course a new set of side tanks and rear coal bunker would have to be made).

 

Perhaps the body and cab from the V3, the front pony from the V3, the Chassis of the N class and its valve gear, and the tanks/bunker/cab scratch built with a suitable 4 wheel rear bogie found would make a reasonable L1?

Hi. My first comment on a blog.

To summarise; L1 5'2" wheels 6'6" + 7'0"

N 5'6" wheels 7'3" + 8'3"

2mt 5'0" wheels 6'9" + 7'0"

 

However Bachmann N wheels = 21mm or 5'3"

Bachmann 2mt wheels = 20mm or 5'0"

 

Therefore the N wheelbase is 2' too long but wheels are almost the right size & the valve gear is ok. The 2mt wheelbase is 3" too long and the wheels 2" too small but the valve gear is way out.

 

I will carry on with the 2mt chassis as I already have one in stock but will not do anything irreversible to it until Hornby make their announcements at Christmas just in case.

 

Regards Roger.

Hi all.

 

Thanks for your comments. Looking at all the info and purely from a point of ease, it looks like the N chassis might fit the bill. Ultimately it will be Mali's choice though as its going to be his loco, (I suspect he's keeping a sneaky eye on this post).

 

Roger, can you just confirm as above that the N wheelbase is 2' too long? That does seem alot, but I'm hopeful it may be disguised.

 

Simon, firstly, keep the faith as regards the dissertation. The current Mrs Penguin has just started out on a uniersity degree, so I feel I know what you're going through. I think the N cylinders are about right for the L1 and I remember from my K1 that DMR do some LNER style bits, (sorry, I don't know the technical terms) for the cylinder front and backs.

 

As regards the rear bogies, its almost as if you don't see the woods for the trees, as the B1 front bogie, spun around is the correct wheelbase and diameter if my drawings are correct. I'll stand corrected if, (as is usual), if I am wrong, but if right, thats the chassis about sorted.

 

Obviously still pondering, but I reckon that using the V1 body and just extending the tanks, cabs etc may make a decent job of this. Plenty of plasticard on standby for the job ahead.....

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

RCTS 9A says the L1 used same cylinders as B1. As was written earlier, the V1/V3 boiler barrel is identical in length to the L1, with the dome being placed in a different position, but you will need to lengthen the firebox section only by about 3mm.

 

I think the N wheelbase (7'3" x 8'3" - same as a GW Pannier and Collett Goods!) is just a bit far out for L1 purposes. Ivatt 2MT is more promising, but you'd have a fair amount of adaptation of valve gear to do.

 

If you're going to be modelling the first one, no.9000, will you be recreating the folding headcode discs at the front in addition to the electric headcode lighting?

 

Horsetan,

 

Must have posted my last as you were posting your bit.

 

Hmmmn, how easy do we think it would be to use a 2MT chassis with N valve gear and cylinders? I'm not entirely sure how easy it is to dismantle Bachmann valve gear?

 

Problem is, it could end up expensive, just t get the varying parts, even just to have a look at and tinker.

 

I will be going to Warley this year, so may try to have a sneaky look at all the models mentioned and see what they all look like in the flesh as it were....

Theoretically, and thinking this one out aloud, you're looking at using only part of the N's valve gear - for simplicity, I would leave the 2MT's coupling and connecting rods in place, and then cannibalise the N for slidebars, crossheads, union links, combining levers, radius rods, expansion links and eccentric rods and return cranks.

 

Then rob a B1 for the cylinders.

Hi. My first comment on a blog.

To summarise; L1 5'2" wheels 6'6" + 7'0"

N 5'6" wheels 7'3" + 8'3"

2mt 5'0" wheels 6'9" + 7'0"

 

However Bachmann N wheels = 21mm or 5'3"

Bachmann 2mt wheels = 20mm or 5'0"

 

Therefore the N wheelbase is 2' too long but wheels are almost the right size & the valve gear is ok. The 2mt wheelbase is 3" too long and the wheels 2" too small but the valve gear is way out.

 

I will carry on with the 2mt chassis as I already have one in stock but will not do anything irreversible to it until Hornby make their announcements at Christmas just in case.

 

Regards Roger.

 

Hi Roger,

 

Looking at those dimensions, are you saying the N class chassis would be better in proportion to make an L1 compared to the 2MT? If that is the case, I'd find a spare set of B1 cylinders from somewhere and chuck them onto my N class chassis to see how it looked...

 

Since the model is in effect a representation of an L1 (albeit trying to be as close to prototype as possible with RTR parts available), the thought occurs that the proportions of the N class chassis wouldn't be too far out to be completely wrong. I accept that the 2MT wheelbase is possibly closer, but Horsetan's suggestion of modiying the 2MT and N that much sounds costly (but with respect Horsetan, totally doable and probably the best way to represent the valve gear).

 

What has swung it for me is the scaling of the driving wheel size - knowing that the N class wheels are closer to scale L1 size than the 2MT I think I'll be using an N class chassis for my build (which, the more we discuss, seems like it will happen!)

 

Therefore I now need to find some B1 cylinders and a B1 bogie if your thoughts about those components are correct sean (and that sounds like Thompson to me - using standard parts to make a new class!)

 

Thanks for the support RE the dissertation - its writing a little better today!

 

Cheers,

 

Simon

Hi all.

 

Thanks for your comments. Looking at all the info and purely from a point of ease, it looks like the N chassis might fit the bill. Ultimately it will be Mali's choice though as its going to be his loco, (I suspect he's keeping a sneaky eye on this post).

 

Roger, can you just confirm as above that the N wheelbase is 2' too long? That does seem alot, but I'm hopeful it may be disguised.

 

Simon, firstly, keep the faith as regards the dissertation. The current Mrs Penguin has just started out on a uniersity degree, so I feel I know what you're going through. I think the N cylinders are about right for the L1 and I remember from my K1 that DMR do some LNER style bits, (sorry, I don't know the technical terms) for the cylinder front and backs.

 

As regards the rear bogies, its almost as if you don't see the woods for the trees, as the B1 front bogie, spun around is the correct wheelbase and diameter if my drawings are correct. I'll stand corrected if, (as is usual), if I am wrong, but if right, thats the chassis about sorted.

 

Obviously still pondering, but I reckon that using the V1 body and just extending the tanks, cabs etc may make a decent job of this. Plenty of plasticard on standby for the job ahead.....

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

 

 

Sean

 

Yes I can confirm N wheelbase as 7'3" + 8'3" = 15'6" or 2' longer than the L1. It seems a lot but if you put the drawings alongside each other it is obvious. Shame because wheels, cylinders & valve gear are fine.

 

Roger

Hi Roger,

 

Looking at those dimensions, are you saying the N class chassis would be better in proportion to make an L1 compared to the 2MT? If that is the case, I'd find a spare set of B1 cylinders from somewhere and chuck them onto my N class chassis to see how it looked...

 

Since the model is in effect a representation of an L1 (albeit trying to be as close to prototype as possible with RTR parts available), the thought occurs that the proportions of the N class chassis wouldn't be too far out to be completely wrong. I accept that the 2MT wheelbase is possibly closer, but Horsetan's suggestion of modiying the 2MT and N that much sounds costly (but with respect Horsetan, totally doable and probably the best way to represent the valve gear).

 

What has swung it for me is the scaling of the driving wheel size - knowing that the N class wheels are closer to scale L1 size than the 2MT I think I'll be using an N class chassis for my build (which, the more we discuss, seems like it will happen!)

 

Therefore I now need to find some B1 cylinders and a B1 bogie if your thoughts about those components are correct sean (and that sounds like Thompson to me - using standard parts to make a new class!)

 

Thanks for the support RE the dissertation - its writing a little better today!

 

Cheers,

 

Simon

 

 

Simon

 

Sorry but I think the 2mt has the better proportions but the cylinders & valve gear are wrong. The N has better cylinders & valve gear but the proportions are wrong. Be careful, the B1 slide bars are double, the L1 single.

 

Roger

Hi All.

 

Just reading through the above and AT THE MOMENT, I'm siding with Simon as I think (again with due respect to Horsetan) his way could get costly.

 

That said, I think Mali is all for Horsetans idea..... (Its alright for him, he's not doing the conversion!!!

The B1 bogie is a scale 6'3" wheelbase, so you could use that in reverse as you said.

 

Frankly, you're cannibalising bits from at least four engines - V1/V3, B1, N and 2MT - that it almost doesn't matter. But for the RTR solution, it has to be the 2MT chassis, as that is the closest, and the driving wheels are only a scale 2" smaller than the L1.

 

Bear in mind that tyres usually had a 2"/2.5" wear allowance before new tyres became necessary, so you're within wear limits for the L1. This is ironic because the L1s were notorious for wearing out basic things like hornblocks and rod bearings anyway

 

It is worth asking the enterprising East Kent Models whether they would be able to break down complete models to supply:

 

- V1 or V3 body

- complete 2MT chassis

- valve gear (both sides) from the "N"

- cylinders and bogie from the B1 chassis.

 

You never know, they just might have those bits sitting in the parts bins anyway.

The B1 bogie is a scale 6'3" wheelbase, so you could use that in reverse as you said.

 

Frankly, you're cannibalising bits from at least four engines - V1/V3, B1, N and 2MT - that it almost doesn't matter. But for the RTR solution, it has to be the 2MT chassis, as that is the closest, and the driving wheels are only a scale 2" smaller than the L1.

 

Bear in mind that tyres usually had a 2"/2.5" wear allowance before new tyres became necessary, so you're within wear limits for the L1. This is ironic because the L1s were notorious for wearing out basic things like hornblocks and rod bearings anyway

 

It is worth asking the enterprising East Kent Models whether they would be able to break down complete models to supply:

 

- V1 or V3 body

- complete 2MT chassis

- valve gear (both sides) from the "N"

- cylinders and bogie from the B1 chassis.

 

You never know, they just might have those bits sitting in the parts bins anyway.

 

You make some superb points as usual, Horsetan.

 

Does anyone actually have an N class and a 2MT to hand to do some comparison pics? I think if we could see the difference in the wheelbase in the models, we'd have a clearer idea of how the proportions of the wheelbase would look against a V3 body and so on.

 

The reason I'm advocating the N class chassis is simply based on ease of build and the size of the driving wheels being closer than the 2MT's. Of course, if we're cannabalising two chassis types anyway, one could re-wheel the 2MT chassis using the N class wheels and then use the coupling rods of the 2MT with the N class's coupling rods and valve gear...!

 

Strange to think that in essence we'e doing what Thompson did sixty years to make the first L1!

The N driving wheels are 5'6", which I think might lead to ride height problems later on.

The N driving wheels are 5'6", which I think might lead to ride height problems later on.

 

Thats true Horsetan, but as indicated earlier in the thread, the Bachmann wheels are actually undersized for the prototype and actually come out to a scale 5'3", which is closer than the 2MT to scale size for the L1 conversion (oversize as opposed undersize).

Hi all.

 

A litle bit of progress news re this model. Firstly, I managed to source a relatively cheap V1 from e bay and so that should be winging its way to me during the week. Myself and Mali spent about an hout last night comparing the V1 body with the drawings and the 2MT chassis. I have not managed to source an N class drawing or chassis, but can confirm that the 2MT wheel size and spacing matches the drawing perfectly.

 

As the valve gear is completely wrong, I had a brain wave. DMR supplied a few bits for my K1, but I note they actually do a full K1 kit, so I'm going to see if they can supply just the valve gear to me and then I'll have a go at just using the bits that differ from the 2MT. So. providing I can get the correct parts, I should be well on my way to something near the L1.

 

Who knows, I may even purchase 2 sets and correct my K1????...........

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

Just had another thought Simon... (I know, I should be careful).

 

It would be interesting to see how both models progress if you choose to use the N chassis? Are you going to run your own thread, or join in on here? either way, let me know as I'm sure I'll need some inspiration at some point during the build....

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

Hi Sean,

 

It'll be going in my blog as a "new build"

 

I am intending to use the N class chassis after a lot of thought. My donor V3 has been dismantled at home and its components are winging its way to uni!

 

I will of course join in here too as it keeps the interest and will make for some interesting comparisons.

 

Kind Regards,

 

Simon