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Silver Sidelines

Entry posted by Silver Sidelines

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The recent appearance in the shops of some Hornby super detail Pullman Cars at half the recommended price had me thinking. When I used to go ‘Train Spotting’ to Darlington I might be lucky and get there in time to see the ‘up’ Tees-Tyne Pullman when it called at Darlington just after 10:00am.

14859659359_c24195aaa7_b.jpg15043293691_c776de0257_b.jpg

Queen of Scots and Tees-Tyne Pullman Times 1961/62

However I seem to have clearer memories of the down Queen of Scots creeping in from the south towards five o’clock in the evening. The best of the day would be over and the train of elderly Pullmam cars would be headed by an equally old and probably dowdy A3. I would model the Queen of Scots Pullman.

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Queen of Scots c1961

(Hornby Super Detail Pullman Cars fitted with Roco 40270 couplers and hauled (in the shadows) by Hornby A3 Coronach.)

 

Previously I had used a pair of Hornby Brakes to top and tail my Bachmann Mk1 Pullmans to recreate a Deltic hauled Tees Tyne Pullman.

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One I made earlier – Deltic Hauled Pullman

Could I release one of these brake coaches for the Queen of Scots? I had in mind a 1962 colour slide of A4 Sparrow Hawk approaching York on the Tees Tyne Pullman with a maroon Gresley BG fronting some Mk1 Pullman Cars. The picture is from the RW Carroll Collection and I had been directed to it by fellow modeller Alun Hughes (of this parish). I would recreate a similar train formation.

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Tees Tyne Pullman c1962

I purchased my Hornby Gresley BG with much enthusiasm back in 2012. On its own the coach is very splendid. However my attempts at running the Gresley with my existing Bachmann Mk1 and Thompson BGs were disappointing due to the apparent low ride height of the Hornby van. I would revisit the RMweb thread detailing the Gresley BG. It has much to say about the shape and width of the body but I could only find one tiny reference by ‘Coachman’ noting that the ride height was too low and that he had added some packing between the bogies and the coach body. I would experiment.

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Bogie and Underframe from Hornby BG

The Hornby Gresley is rather delicate so you might need to have some glue and solvent available to stick any broken bits back together. The body shell is attached to the chassis by four lugs moulded with the glazing. Carefully prising the body from the chassis then allows the bogies to be pushed out. If you plan on reusing the existing bogies and fixings you can only add a limited amount of packing before the bogies seize solid. I was able to add a couple of home made plastic washers with a total thickness approaching 1mm. It is a little bit trial and error. Not only do the bogies need to swing from side to side but there also has to be some up and down movement to accommodate vertical transitions associated with gradients.

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Hornby Gresley BSK (left) and BG raised (right)

Even just 1mm of packing seems to make a difference.

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Hornby Gresley BG raised (left) and Bachmann Mk1 BG right

And back to the Tees Tyne Pullman.

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Bachmann Mk1 Pullman and Hornby Gresley BG (raised)

The Bachmann Mk1 Pullmans have been fitted with Hornby R8220 couplers whilst the Hornby BG is fitted with a Roco 40270 coupler.

15018883425_3922f718f5_b.jpg

Tees Tyne Pullman 1962

I would play trains:

http://youtu.be/gf-bb8JQvqo

I say ‘play’ because reference to the timetables for the Queen of Scots and Tees Tyne Pullmans would indicate that in normal circumstances the two trains would not have passed each other in the north east but possibly somewhere south of Doncaster.

14870139567_8ea561db01_b.jpg15056696255_404fa4a582_b.jpg

1961 Train fares to London and the Meal Tariff

How times change, depart Glasgow 11 0 am to arrive Kings X 8 7 pm (nine hours later). I have also added two other pages from the 1961/62 timetable. One page shows train fares from the north east to London (all in shillings) and the other page details the costs of meals and refreshments. In 1961 12/- (60p) for ‘dinner’ sounds brilliant but no doubt would have been regarded as ‘dear’ back in the early 1960s. Perhaps an illustration of how inflation erodes the value of money.

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paulprice

I have always liked Pulmans I even have a few in my collection, and find very little need for justifying running them on my LMS layout behind a prototype Deltic.

 

Great video

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davidw

Thanks for the tip on raising the gresley's I've a good few to run. What packing did you use?

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Silver Sidelines

Thanks David

.. What packing did you use?

I was leaving it vague because I don't have access to a micrometer and cannot accurately say how thick the packing was that I used (hence trial and error).  I have some black plastic file dividers from a course or a brochure - looks to be slightly under 0.5mm thickness.  I then went to my drawing instruments and used my drawing dividers to scribe some discs.  I finished the cutting out with a craft knife.  I took the measurements off the coach bogies which translates to 1/2 inch outside diameter.  I made a stack of discs, used sellotape to hold them together and then drilled them all together starting with something like a 1/16 drill bit and finishing with a 11/64.  Finally I used a metal file to smooth the rough edges.  First time round the bogie was held too stiffly so it was a case of going round again with the file.

 

Not very scientific but with a lack of local shops it is a relatively quick and easy way to progress the task.

 

Good luck

 

Ray

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Tigger

What a great blog, very interesting. I am also a Pullman fan especially the Mk1's and now can run several different full rakes, Tees Tyne (various dates and some mixed liveries UC/GB), White Rose, Humber and Hull Pullman. The picture from  RW Carroll that you refer to is interesting and I note that the third Pullman is of the pre Mk1 type, it even appears to have destination boards. I think it should have been a Mk1 First Parlor, I assume it has be substituted for a First Parlor pre Mk1 type. This rake, unusually, appears to have been made up of a miss match of stock do you have any ideas why?

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Silver Sidelines

... I think it should have been a Mk1 First Parlor, I assume it has be substituted for a First Parlor pre Mk1 type. This rake, unusually, appears to have been made up of a miss match of stock do you have any ideas why?

Hi Tigger, thanks for the message.   My informant (Alan Huges) seems to think a Kitchen First.  I am sorry I don't where he gets his information and no idea why the mismatch.

 

Sorry for the delay in replying but our BT Broadband line has fallen over with no sign of it being fixed - this is progress?

 

Speak again

 

Regards

 

Ray

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Silver Sidelines

Thanks Tigger

 

Indeed!  I like he Blue and Grey liveries but it was after my time - and methinks Bachmann got it wrong with some of their coaches.

 

Speak again

 

Ray

 

PS Broadband took a whole week to get fixed (thank goodness for my daughter nearby).

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YK 50A

What a great blog, very interesting. I am also a Pullman fan especially the Mk1's and now can run several different full rakes, Tees Tyne (various dates and some mixed liveries UC/GB), White Rose, Humber and Hull Pullman. The picture from  RW Carroll that you refer to is interesting and I note that the third Pullman is of the pre Mk1 type, it even appears to have destination boards. I think it should have been a Mk1 First Parlor, I assume it has be substituted for a First Parlor pre Mk1 type. This rake, unusually, appears to have been made up of a miss match of stock do you have any ideas why?

 

Hi,

 

I have just caught up with Ray's most recent blogs and I haven't got BT to blame!  The thinking is that the Gresley BG and adjoining Metro-Camm Kitchen 2nd were in lieu of a presumably unavailable 1928/1931 all steel brake second.  Similarly, the all steel Kitchen 1st (probability based on position in the rake and that there were still 4 in service in May 1962) would have been used in place of a Metro-Camm Kitchen 1st.

 

We will never know for sure, but these kind of substitutions wouldn't have been particularly unusual.

 

Regards,

 

Alun

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YK 50A

Indeed!  I like he Blue and Grey liveries but it was after my time - and methinks Bachmann got it wrong with some of their coaches.

 

Hi Ray,

 

This is the best article I have found regarding the reverse blue/grey Metro-Camm Pullmans.  Buyer beware if you don't like Bachmann costume malfunctions.

 

Best wishes,

 

Alun

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Silver Sidelines

Hello Alun

..This is the best article I have found regarding the reverse blue/grey Metro-Camm Pullmans. ....

You have been busy.  Some good research.  There are some excellent models in the suggested article - worth a PhD with all the background information!

 

Regards

 

Ray

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davidw

I was under the impression that Maroon Mk1 BG's substituted  the 1928 brakes from 63 on wards. I don't think Gresley BG's were used. Though I suppose there's nothing to say it didn't substitute.

 

Great railway by the way. It this DC or DCC? 

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Silver Sidelines

Hi David

I was under the impression that Maroon Mk1 BG's substituted  the 1928 brakes from 63 on wards. I don't think Gresley BG's were used. Though I suppose there's nothing to say it didn't substitute.

 

Great railway by the way. It this DC or DCC? 

You might have missed an important link.  RW Carroll has a picture showing the Tees Tyne Pullman with a Gresley BG.

 

I am getting to be ancient so not Digital.  In fact I cannot see any benefits for DCC - but that only shows my age even more!

 

Thanks

 

Ray

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YK 50A

I was under the impression that Maroon Mk1 BG's substituted  the 1928 brakes from 63 on wards. I don't think Gresley BG's were used. Though I suppose there's nothing to say it didn't substitute.

 

On the ECML there were 4 1928 brake seconds and a further 8 converted from kitchen seconds to work with the Metro-Camms, but built in 1928 AND 1931.  The non-brake all steel vehicles remaining in use on the ECML were 4 kitchen firsts, a parlour second and a parlour first.  Some brake seconds survived until 1966/67.

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davidw

Thanks - yes I missed that. What a surprise...

 

I've two sets of mk1 Pullmans. One set has two 1928 Hornby rail road brakes in it. With comet brass sides and the other has a pair of  1925 brakes. I'm in thee process of repainting all to match the Bachmann colours.

 

Fiddly 

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Silver Sidelines

Thanks Dave

l to match the Bachmann colours.

 

Fiddly 

That's brave - I would be interested in hearing (and seeing) more.

 

Speak again

 

Ray

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YK 50A

It is interesting as the normal rake in 1962 was Second Brake, PSK, PFK, PSB, PFK, PFP,PSK, Second Brake. 8 Cars.

The train shown appears to be Gresley BG, PSK, PFP(?), 1st Kitchen, PSB, PFK, PFP,PSK, Second Brake. 10 Cars.

 

Hi Mike,

 

I have access to the WTTs for 12th September 1960 through 11th June 1961 and 17th June 1963 through 8th September 1963; "that photograph" being dated May 1962, if indeed the month and year are accurate, but it looks about right!

 

Both WTTs do indeed show 8 car rakes.  The down train being Second Brake / Second Kitchen (Friday) or First Parlour (rest of the week) / First Kitchen / Second Bar-Kitchen / First Kitchen / First Kitchen (1960/61) or First Parlour (1963) / Second Kitchen / Second Brake.  We are broadly in agreement other than you appear to have listed the formation for the Friday only service.

 

Therefore, the rake does look consistent to me (on a Monday to Thursday) with the BG and Second Kitchen being used instead of a Second Brake and the all steel First Kitchen being a like for like replacement.  I'm afraid my lack of skills doesn't allow me to identify the type of vehicle from the 5th coach onwards (other than those in clear sight are Metro-Camms), and the 5th looks like it might be a Kitchen or Bar Car, again consistent with the WTTs.  Although I think I can see a 9th vehicle under Holgate Bridge, I can't see a 10th.

 

Alun

 

***  EDIT - the post I replied to appears to have been deleted so apologies if it is out of context  ***

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Silver Sidelines

Hi Tigger and Alun

 

The missing 'post' sent to my email account.

 

Thanks

 

Ray

 

------------ QUOTE ----------
Hi,

I have just caught up with Ray's most recent blogs and I haven't got BT to blame!  The thinking is that the Gresley BG and adjoining Metro-Camm Kitchen 2nd were in lieu of a presumably unavailable 1928/1931 all steel brake second.  Similarly, the all steel Kitchen 1st (probability based on position in the rake and that there were still 4 in service in May 1962) would have been used in place of a Metro-Camm Kitchen 1st.

We will never know for sure, but these kind of substitutions wouldn't have been particularly unusual.

Regards,

Alun
-----------------------------


It is interesting as the normal rake in 1962 was Second Brake, PSK, PFK, PSB, PFK, PFP,PSK, Second Brake. 8 Cars.
The train shown appears to be Gresley BG, PSK, PFP(?), 1st Kitchen, PSB, PFK, PFP,PSK, Second Brake. 10 Cars.

I am sure there was a reason for this unusual formation but as you say Alun, "We will never know for sure, but these kind of substitutions wouldn't have been particularly unusual." Anyway it is certainly possible to model :)

Mike

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YK 50A

Hi Tigger and Alun

 

The missing 'post' sent to my email account.

 

Thanks Ray.

 

I have a habit of being exhausted at around 7pm when my youngest goes to bed, then wide awake from midnight.  As a cure for insomnia, I recommend finding a photograph with something not quite right about it and getting the WTTs out.

 

Alun

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bigwordsmith

Fascinating theme - this is my take on the same subject or would be I can work out how to add pics on the iPhone

 

I'll do it later on the laptop

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