A trip to the Dark Side?

[OldSutt]

I have been thinking about changing from DC to DCC for many a long day, but the thought of rewiring my layout and chipping my collection of locomotives has been the great stumbling block. I have read many articles about DCC and seen it in action at shows, but have been dithering.

However, I obtained a DCC controller (not my first choice) for a song and have decided to explore further.

So I built myself a programming track and connected the controller/power source.

I had an Bachmann Pannier which was DCC ready, so I fitted a 36-552 decoder which was going cheap in my local model shop.

The results so far - it works and I have even managed to program a few CVs. The stuffed Pannier creeps along far slower than DC, but there is a motor noise just before it moves off, which drops as it accelerates.

Is the noise due to the capacitors not being removed? The pannier glided along originally on DC.

I know that the decoder is not of the first rank and people will laud the praises of Lenz et al, but at £13 a pop, this is a ditherers effort to make a start.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Oldddudders]

Try reducing CV2 to the point where the loco just starts moving at throttle setting 1.

 

Decoders do vary in capability, and largely according to price, but not every modeller needs the greater finesse offered by premium brands. If the 552 does what you want then stick with it. Chipping the whole fleet might just be better for your enjoyment than making half the fleet work optimally and half left without decoders. Be aware that variations among models mean that you may need different CV settings for identical models with identical decoders. That's the beauty of CV adjustment - you can eliminate the differences if you choose to.

 

As for modifying your layout wiring, good DC wiring generally works well with DCC too.

[Suzie]

The 36-552 is a bit old fashioned by today's standards so you can expect some motor noise with it, especially on a loco with a good motor. It is probably the best of the really cheap decoders so if you can put up with its limited performance and functionality you should be very happy with it - I have quite a lot of them and have never had any problem. It is made by Lenz and just rebadged by Bachmann so you can understand why the quality is a little better than most of the other cheapies.

 

You do not have to use the same decoder in all your locos, so you might like to try the 36-552 first and if it is a bit noisy buy a Zimo instead which will cost twice as much but you cannot get better and it will do the better quality locos justice.

[trustytrev]

Hello,

       You may find "Hattons" decoders good value if you have a number of dc locomotives to convert. I have found dcc to be in a different league altogether when compared to dc and "any" dcc decoder is likely to provide superior results to those achievable with dc.

trustytrev.

[Crosland]

The noise is probably due to the motor vibrating rather than generating enough torque to rotate and move the loco. I would increase CV2 to give more "go" at the lowest speed step.

 

The capacitors can interfere with the Back EMF which is lowest at low speeds (assuming that decoder uses BEMF). Try removing them if CV tweaking doesn't work.

[OldSutt]

Today, I fitted a Bachmann 36-558A decoder to my Pannier 6407. It was a case of read the flipping manual as removing the two screws from under the couplings as usual did not release the body - there is a third screw at the rear of the baseplate, I discovered. Fitting the decoder was no problem except the orientation was not obvious.

Using my programming plank, the Pannier ran perfectly on DCC with factory settings. When I replaced the body, it again ran well, but the hollow sound, noted when I had run it before on DC was still there. I even had 2 panniers moving on the plank.

[OldSutt]

Thanks for the reminder. The current layout is essentially two circuits, so I propose to keep one isolated to DC and one for DCC for the time. Crossovers will be isolated, until both circuits are DCC. 

[OldSutt]

As I obtained originally an inexpensive Bachmann Dynamis DCC set, I have come across the dreaded drop off of signal, which I think has been well documented.

However with the Probox IR extender, the problem has been reduced to almost nil. I did find out however that the IR receivers(original and extender) are not interchangeable due to the connections.

The wiring has arrived so I shall be busy!

[OldSutt]

A Hattons DCR-8PIN-Direct decoder arrived today. Popped it into my 57xx Pannier and it ran beautifully with default settings.

I feel a larger order coming on.

Hattons packed the decoder so well, it came in a box that would have been fit for a pannier.

[OldSutt]

Tried to fit a Hattons DCR-8PIN-Direct decoder into my Bachmann GWR 56xx tank. The chassis proved to work beautifully when fitted. However replacing the body was not an option as the decoder snagged in the gap near the smokebox. (Width problem?)

The blanking plug was replaced and the decoder fitted into my 87xx Pannier, which earlier had a Bachmann 36-552 decoder fitted and gave the results previously posted. This now runs like a dream with no initial buzzing! Probably due to the back emf of the decoder?

I would be interested if anyone has fitted a decoder into a 56xx without trouble.

[OldSutt]

Slowly, slowly converting inner circuit to DCC. The main problem is making the Peco points DCC friendly and fitting point motors as I go with switches and checking continuity. (They are of an age that someone on another thread enquired about)

 

For a change, just converted my Hornby GWR Parcels railcar No 34 to DCC using a Hattons DCR-8PIN-Diirect. It used to run quietly before and now glides along silently. Its slow running is far superior.

[OldSutt]

Just an update on very slow progress. The main problem was chasing a short circuit, which resulted in disconnection of several parts in order to eliminate the short. I think it was where the rail had been cut on a point and somehow it had been spanned??

 

With 3 panniers and the GWR parcels chipped, I have had the opportunity to see the really slow running of DCC. Except the time when one loco completed a circuit when it ignored the controller(Dynamis fade) and proved continuity of the remaining analogue circuit.

[Pete the Elaner]

Keep patient & enjoy driving trains in the mean time.

DCC is a little less forgiving about short circuits but the principles are the same.

[OldSutt]

An update on lack of progress.

I have reached the main part of the inner circuit that is ballasted and is the station area. Previously I had not had this problem as all the changes were confined to the storage and unballasted sections. Taking up crossovers and re-laying them is a pain.

 

The only good thing about the poor weather is that the allotment takes a back seat to the layout.

[OldSutt]

Whilst relaying track and points and fitting Peco point motors where required, I have not made up my mind which method of fitting is worse.

The method of fitting the motor underneath involves hacking out a large hole in the base board to accommodate the motor.

The other method is to fit the extended pin type afterwards from underneath through a previously drilled hole. I have found that trying to find the hole in the slide bar is a most frustrating operation. I have use a wire down through the hole and tried to push it up with the point motor pin. 

Are there any good methods for either?

[Pete the Elaner]

It sounds like you are trying to fit it from below?

I have only ever fitted a motor with the board upside down. It is much easier to locate the pin in the tiebar.

 

Edit: I remember having to re-motor a point on a friend's layout at an exhibition & did that from below. I was able to get almost directly below it though. I always find working under the layout to be extremely uncomfortable.

 

How are you enjoying DCC in general?

Edited July 11, 2016 by Pete the Elaner

[OldSutt]

Time for an update.

 

The inner loop has been wired for DCC and the first official circuits have been made (not counting the runaways when only partially wired). The chipped locos have shown the advantage of slow running under DCC as opposed to analogue. Only a few sidings to rewire on the inner loop to complete.

 

Quoting #17

 "I remember having to re-motor a point on a friend's layout at an exhibition & did that from below. I was able to get almost directly below it though. I always find working under the layout to be extremely uncomfortable."

 

I thoroughly endorse Pete the Elaner sentiments. My knees have decided the issue, ALL points in future will be fitted with point motors and a hole made in the board.

 

For those still using the extended pin method, I found that a mini bolt cutter snipped the excess pin.

 

Now to chip some more locos, however there is that nagging worry about whether my GWR ROD is one of those that were faultily wired for DCC.

[OldSutt]

I managed to obtain a diesel Hornby GWR Railcar for a reasonable amount recently, so I decided to chip it with a Gaugemaster DCC29 as my local stockist were offering them at a reasonable price.

.

My diesel Hornby GWR Parcels had been chipped with a Hattons equivalent, so I was able to compare performance.  Both ran well and little differences were noted. The ability to run and stop separately both on the same path compared to analogue was a revelation. At the same time a Pannier shunted in the goods yard. This would have been difficult in analogue. I think I am being converted, although the thought of converting the outer circuit is daunting.

 

Another thought crossed my mind, what is the residue current drain of a processor at rest? Hopefully small, when many locos are on the whole layout (eg 10 in the loco shed and yard )

[OldSutt]

Just an update as to progress or lack of it.

My local model railway shop was showing that it was down to its last 2 Gaugemaster DCC 29 decoders. As the Hattons DCR-8PIN-Direct was just a little too big to allow the body of my Bachmann GWR 66xx to be refitted last time I tried, I fitted the DCC 29.

The only problem seemed to be that the pins on the DCC 29 were thin and the decoder did not sit securely in the plug socket, resulting in the address to be unreadable. This was solved by tweaking (aagh!) the pins to give a more interference fit.

[Suzie]

...Another thought crossed my mind, what is the residue current drain of a processor at rest? Hopefully small, when many locos are on the whole layout (eg 10 in the loco shed and yard )

 

Decoders usually draw about 10mA or so when idle, so nothing of note. Sound decoders and lighting will use power in an otherwise idle loco if they are turned on of course.

[chaz]

If you can afford it I would put a decoder in all your locos and abandon the use of DC completely. Having a mixture of the two is a nuisance at the least.

 

I would remove capacitors from models as a matter of course. They might interfere with the smooth running of your models and are unnecessary - the decoders include radio frequency suppression as standard.

 

As for as fitting point motors under the baseboards you might care to adopt a method I use on my On30 layout to fit Tortoises to hand made points. You will have to come up with your own marking jig to suit your point motors but if you have a lot of points to motor it will be worth it. Have a look at...

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/79942-the-furness-valley-railroad/page-29

 

Look at post 701 (first one on the page).   HTH.

 

Chaz

Edited January 3, 2017 by chaz

[OldSutt]

Just an update on chipping, a Hattons DCR-8PIN direct found its way into my Hornby R2937 GWR County of Cornwall, albeit on a slight tilt.

 

A Gaugemaster DCC26 was induced into the six wheeled tender of Hornby R2829 SR T9 #314.

[sonofjamie]

As I obtained originally an inexpensive Bachmann Dynamis DCC set, I have come across the dreaded drop off of signal, which I think has been well documented.

However with the Probox IR extender, the problem has been reduced to almost nil. I did find out however that the IR receivers(original and extender) are not interchangeable due to the connections.

The wiring has arrived so I shall be busy!

I am currently in the process of building a very large layout in my loft which is running DC at the moment. However, I am now considering whether to 'bite the bullet' and, like yourself, go over to the 'dark side'. Having over 20 locos I'm not looking forward to installing decoders and programming them all one after another.

Elsewhere on RMWeb today I noticed a post about the Bachmann Dynamis Ultima being run via computer software which (it is claimed) eliminates the need to program each decoder, and that DCC fitted locos can simply be placed on the track and once assigned a number (address) from the software and (assuming the loco profile is already in the software) all the loco's DCC functions are ready to be controlled at the click of an icon on the screen. It would involve a major investment financially but I'm hoping could save an enormous amount of time assuming it all works as advertised.

I just wondered how happy you were with the Bachmann Dynamis controller and whether you feel the trip to the 'dark side' has been worth it???

[sonofjamie]

Would it?

• Raspberry Pi 3 w/ starter pack, incl. power brick & pre-installed 8GB SD card: 55
• decent LCD screen: 60-75
• decent keyboard & mouse combo: 15-20
• SPROG 3: 60-ish
• RocRail or JMRI: free from the web (Open Source projects)

You don't really need anything else, so for approx 180-200 quid your basic setup is done, including a dedicated PC-style computer. Which, btw, is made in Wales

 

Hi Dutch,

Thank you for your input. That looks like another possible setup to consider. Given that I already have an old spare laptop, would I be right in thinking that all I would need to buy then is the SPROG? RocRail looks very similar to the Bachmann software - and it's FREE !!

[sonofjamie]

Yes, if you already have the laptop, the only thing left to purchase is the SPROG 3 unit.

 

Do note, however, this also has some disadvantages: if the laptop goes kaputt, you can't drive trains anymore. Also, you cannot connect a handset for convenient operating of the layout, everything goes via the laptop. But if that's what you want, then go for it!

 

Oh, and I didn't include the cost for decoders, but I reckon you got that figured out already

 

Hi Dutch,

Thanks again.

Yes, it had crossed my mind about relying entirely on computer control, which is why I was looking at the Bachmann Dynamis Ultima to give me (what I hoped would be!) the best of both worlds, but your suggested setup is certainly a lot cheaper and it's definitely still on the options list.

Yes, no matter what route I eventually take, the decoders will be a necessary additional cost.

Mmm . . . lots to ponder.