Halwill Junction Track Plan (But as if it never closed!)

[Joseph_Pestell]

Quite interesting to think what a SW mainline DEMU would have looked like. Would it be like a Hastings unit but to full loading gauge? Or would it be more like a Class 309 (Clacton) unit more obviously based on Mk1 corridor stock? Or indeed more like a 4CEP/BEP?

 

It's even relevant to today's railway. With the right control gear, no reason why a DEMU could not be fitted up to run in multiple with an EMU to Basingstoke or Salisbury (if electrified) continuing on its own diesel power westwards. With Bombardier and Siemens using  the same bodyshells for both their EMU and DMU products, a hybrid/bi-mode should be quite easy.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Joseph_Pestell

[Zomboid]

Perhaps they would have been a bit like the NIR DEMUs, with a corridor connection at one end only, since above-solebar engines would probably prevent a corridor at that end. I'd like to think that the power car driving end would have a bit more style than the 80 class, though!

 

If Salisbury is electrified then it's highly likely that the Waterloo - Exeter trains would be dual voltage bi-modes. Whether they'd be compatible with 450s/ 444s would be questionable, since those are already 10 years old, so would be beyond 20 by the time any such scheme happens (and will 707s work with them?).

[Joseph_Pestell]

Perhaps they would have been a bit like the NIR DEMUs, with a corridor connection at one end only, since above-solebar engines would probably prevent a corridor at that end. I'd like to think that the power car driving end would have a bit more style than the 80 class, though!

 

If Salisbury is electrified then it's highly likely that the Waterloo - Exeter trains would be dual voltage bi-modes. Whether they'd be compatible with 450s/ 444s would be questionable, since those are already 10 years old, so would be beyond 20 by the time any such scheme happens (and will 707s work with them?).

 

You are right. A Southern DEMU of 50s/60s era would have an above-floor engine and so no corridor connection at that end. Not very practical on the real railway but makes for a more characterful model.

 

Also need to look at whether there were any engines with the right power/weight for a four-car unit or if it would have to be like a Hastings unit (6 car with two engines).

[Oldddudders]

ISTR the Hastings unit prime movers were suddenly available due to a cancelled order for Egypt, or something like that? Otherwise might Southern have had DMMUs like everyone else?

[Nearholmer]

What a truly, truly horrible thought.

 

The Southern Railway (not region) definitely had Diesel Electric MUs, not DMMUs, firmly in its plans. They regarded them, and diesel locos, as "electric motive power with on-board generator", which is how they were conceived-of in the first place.

 

My understanding is that, with a bit of ducking-and-diving to avoid influence from The Kremlin wherever possible, BR(S) tried to carry on as if nationalisation never happened, largely pursuing plans laid c1946, but much more slowly, because they could no longer raise capital on the open market, on the strength of savings and increased earnings, but had to fight the other regions for a slice of whatever capital-cake the government allocated to BR.

 

It makes for interesting speculation to think whether SR could have sustained without nationalisation. My gut feel is that it could have, conditional upon continuation of the "fit for purpose" management-style that it had in the 1930s, the absence of excessive regulation of fare-levels, and relief from "common carrier" obligations. It was a paying enterprise, with plenty of latent-demand to draw-upon in Kent, Sussex, Surrey, Hants and East-Dorset. Further west, one wonders whether it might have retrenched, especially once people started to go on holiday by plane, rather than train.

 

Kevin

[Rivercider]

I too have played the "let's imagine nationalisation never happened" game with the SR Western Division in mind.

 

A good start point is a paper by the then Chief Electrical Engineer, C M Cock, in 1947, where he says that approval in principle had already been given to complete elimination of steam east of the Portsmouth main line, then talks about DE traction for branches that don't justify electrification, and holds out high-hopes for the 1600hp main line DEs.

 

So, I postulate steam to diesel transition west of the Pompey line being largely complete by 1960, with perhaps the WC & BB hanging-on into the 1960s, concentrated on fewr and fewer depots. The branches would all be DEMUs, and the main lines would be 2000hp DE, like a Class 40, but with Southern-style cabs. Freight, except for coal, would be dealt with by depots every c20 miles, using road distribution, a plan which the SR started to introduce in the late 30s. Not sure what the freight locos would be: maybe Class 20'ish; maybe pre-33 Sulzers, like the Irish ones.

 

Has anyone ever followed this through and built a SR 1950s layout?

 

Kevin

 

(Too much train journey home on his hands)

Where did Bulleids diesel electrics 10201, 10202 and 10203 fit into this?

I see they each had different maximum hp output, were they all forerunners of the intended 2000hp loco?

 

To return to the OPs question what might we have seen at Halwill Junction, as I don't think those locos would have been intended for the far west, though perhaps eventually being cleared to run to Plymouth via Okehampton? 

Presumably for Padstow and Bude and elsewhere it would have been the proposed 1600hp locos to be used, what weight and wheel arrangement were they to be?

 

cheers

Edited April 13, 2016 by Rivercider

[Joseph_Pestell]

What a truly, truly horrible thought.

 

The Southern Railway (not region) definitely had Diesel Electric MUs, not DMMUs, firmly in its plans. They regarded them, and diesel locos, as "electric motive power with on-board generator", which is how they were conceived-of in the first place.

 

My understanding is that, with a bit of ducking-and-diving to avoid influence from The Kremlin wherever possible, BR(S) tried to carry on as if nationalisation never happened, largely pursuing plans laid c1946, but much more slowly, because they could no longer raise capital on the open market, on the strength of savings and increased earnings, but had to fight the other regions for a slice of whatever capital-cake the government allocated to BR.

 

It makes for interesting speculation to think whether SR could have sustained without nationalisation. My gut feel is that it could have, conditional upon continuation of the "fit for purpose" management-style that it had in the 1930s, the absence of excessive regulation of fare-levels, and relief from "common carrier" obligations. It was a paying enterprise, with plenty of latent-demand to draw-upon in Kent, Sussex, Surrey, Hants and East-Dorset. Further west, one wonders whether it might have retrenched, especially once people started to go on holiday by plane, rather than train.

 

Kevin

 

Given the potential for coupling up a DEMU to an EMU, DEMU was clearly a better option for BR(S) to pursue. Not that they ever followed that through by putting shoegear on any of the DEMUs.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Where did Bulleids diesel electrics 10201, 10202 and 10203 fit into this?

I see they each had different maximum hp output, were they all forerunners of the intended 2000hp loco?

 

To return to the OPs question what might we have seen at Halwill Junction, as I don't think those locos would have been intended for the far west, though perhaps eventually being cleared to run to Plymouth via Okehampton? 

Presumably for Padstow and Bude and elsewhere it would have been the proposed 1600hp locos to be used, what weight and wheel arrangement were they to be?

 

cheers

 

A shorter BB version of 10201 could probably manage a 1600hp engine. Quite an attractive loco which would resemble those little Italian BBs.

 

Or if weight was a problem, an A1A-A1A.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Joseph_Pestell

[JohnR]

The Bulleid diesels had different power arrangements as EE managed to increase output as they were developed. The eventual Class 40 took elements of both the SR and LMS prototypes. Whether any production diesels would have used the EE nose, or retained the flat front is debateable.

 

I would imagine a lower power diesel, say Bo-Bo 1200hp would have been used - perhaps in multiple from Waterloo, with each then taking a portion to North Devon/North Cornwall?

[Joseph_Pestell]

We have gone rather OT. Perhaps we should start a new thread for 1950s Southern Railway?

[Nearholmer]

Done it .... Kevin

[TomJ]

Not quite Hawill but here's an idea I had for a South Western SR junction. Barnstaple junction retained freight and loco hauled right until the late 80s. Just suppose the line to Torrington stayed open for clay past 1982 and even a DMU service to Bideford - both v plausible what ifs. The other change is that the line to Illfracombe stayed open with summer services through to London. Could easily be modelled with blue diesels or adapted for more modern times with pacers, sprinters, voyagers and HST for passenger and 66s for the remaining clay???

[sammyboy]

Good idea Tom J, now go ahead and build it!

[Glorious NSE]

Not quite Hawill but here's an idea I had for a South Western SR junction. Barnstaple junction retained freight and loco hauled right until the late 80s. Just suppose the line to Torrington stayed open for clay past 1982 and even a DMU service to Bideford - both v plausible what ifs. The other change is that the line to Illfracombe stayed open with summer services through to London. Could easily be modelled with blue diesels or adapted for more modern times with pacers, sprinters, voyagers and HST for passenger and 66s for the remaining clay???

I played around with a alt-Barnstaple idea for a while, would have been based on the 70s layout with an assumed modernisation in the same kind of fashion, and depicted in the Wessex Trains period, with the assumption that Ilfracombe and Bideford still had passenger service with trains either splitting/joining or connecting (depending on time of day) - It would also have seen a few SWT Waterloo trains per day...plus a small amount of EWS "Enterprise" freight, timber, clay, steel for Appledore...

[TomJ]

One day I'd love to build it - but don't have the space to do it justice. So have settled on Crediton-ish with passenger services remaining to Okehampton.

[thejamesfamily]

Hello Sammyboy ...

 

I have only just joined RMWeb and saw your 2016 request for information about Halwill Junction.

 

Over the past 30-years, I have collected everything I could find on Halwill Junction and since retiring I have started an OO layout in my loft.

 

If there is anything I can help with, please let me know.

 

Martin James

 

ps.

[sammyboy]

Hi Martin (thejamesfamily),

 

Yes I got your private message earlier in the week - now I know what your enquiring about!

 

The Halwill Junction topic was just an idea I had once for a future layout - and I was just interested to wonder just what the station and train services would be like if the line did ever survive into the present day?

 

But I don't think I'll be wanting to build this layout anytime soon, as my current layout (which was started before I had the idea for this one) is taking up my spare time and I don't have any room for another layout!

 

Sam