Double Minories

[Karhedron]

The first option that springs to mind is Marylebone as it has the 4-track approach. It only had 4 passenger platforms but it also the "milk dock" (which handled various perishables as well as milk tankers for the IMS bottling plant on Rossmore Road) which provided a couple of extra faces for NPCCS.

 

[Karhedron]

Another good prototype is Birkenhead Woodside. Although it only had a twin-track approach, it then split out into 5 platforms in a very compact, walled site. The station throat is also very Minories-ish. A track plan can be seen below (courtesy of beast66606).

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/17724-birkenhead-woodside/?p=173972

[luckymucklebackit]

One station that is very "Double Minories Like" is Liverpool Central, six platforms, small locomotive servicing depot, very compact station throat and the obligatory tunnel mouth.  Its similarity to the oft modelled Glasgow Queen Street is remarkable, with an almost identical roof.

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/l/liverpool_central_hl/

 

Jim

[L&Y]

Shed and railway at the bottom of the garden.  Great. You should move up north. You could have a 5 bed mansion with an acre of land for that up here in the third world. Build a proper garden railway in that. And have it all stolen. Lol

[Pacific231G]

On 22/07/2016 at 10:47, Karhedron said:

Another good prototype is Birkenhead Woodside. Although it only had a twin-track approach, it then split out into 5 platforms in a very compact, walled site. The station throat is also very Minories-ish. A track plan can be seen below (courtesy of beast66606).

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/17724-birkenhead-woodside/?p=173972

Though it wasn't British the best example of a very compact and very intensively worked city terrminus I've found was the Gare de la Bastille in Paris

 

 

This small station became incredibly busy with increased commuter traffic  during the 1920s but there was absolutely no room for expansion. The layout was therefore re-arranged to allow simultaneous arrival and departures from any two of the five platforms.

 

To cram the trackwork required into the very short space between the platform ends and the narrow two track viaduct, the designers used unusually sharp points  with a crossing angle of about 1:7.5 normally only used for sidings. By taking full advantage of the curve between the station itself and the viaduct they managed to arrange this so that no train ever met a reverse curve. Apart from a single slip entering the viaduct and a three way turnout into the loco shed, all the pointwork was made up of standard left or right hand turnouts. In the peak of the evening rush hour trains could be arrriving and leaving little more than a minute apart and, because there was no room for carriage sidings at the station and the first yard was over a mile away at the other end of the viaduct, every departure had to be balanced by the arrival of either a service train or an ECS move.

In it's final decade the terminus was operated with push-pull stock but, before that, arriving locos had to be released and moved to take out another train. So, the operation was, on a more intensive scale, rather similar to that enviseged by Cyril Freezer for Minories.

 

Until it closed the terminus remained entirely steam operated with purely mechanical signalling controlled by a smallish Saxby box. It closed at the end of 1969 when the line it served was incorporated into the first of the Paris RER lines.

Edited December 20, 2020 by Pacific231G
grammar

[Joseph_Pestell]

The first option that springs to mind is Marylebone as it has the 4-track approach. It only had 4 passenger platforms but it also the "milk dock" (which handled various perishables as well as milk tankers for the IMS bottling plant on Rossmore Road) which provided a couple of extra faces for NPCCS.

 

 

Nice, but rather long throat (in 4mm) for most of us.

[James Harrison]

But a rationalised version of it is perhaps more manageable?

 

http://www.freetrackplans.com/1001-Marylebone.php

[Chris116]

The problem with Marylebone is that the tunnel may have four or five tracks entering at the station end but shortly after entering the tunnel it becomes large enough for two tracks only and according to my research has never been a four track tunnel at any time since it was built although when built there may have been room to add two extra tracks but that ability was lost many years ago.

[L&Y]

 

Alarmingly. This would actually fit in my loft room in OO! 16 points and a slip. At least 6 tank engines. Not cheap but......... Would look good with some low relief house backs and a mill or two. Think I need to go and lie down in a darkened room. 

[Pacific231G]

Double minories loft.jpg

 

Alarmingly. This would actually fit in my loft room in OO! 16 points and a slip. At least 6 tank engines. Not cheap but......... Would look good with some low relief house backs and a mill or two. Think I need to go and lie down in a darkened room. 

Interesting. I'm pretty sure that Cyril Freezer originally intended Minories to be fed by a return loop rather than a fiddle yard so the train of suburban coaches you'd just sent out would return a couple of trains later with the loco at the other end.  It was the operation of the intensive service with arriving locos having to be worked onto subsequent departures that would make it more interesting than a GWR BLT rather than the variety of trains . It was designed - as a very portable folding five foot long layout in 3mm/ft scale to coincide with the introduction of TT-3 by Tri-Ang. Their initial stock available included a Jinty 0-6-0T and some Midland suburban coaches- mainline locos and stock came later.

[L&Y]

Interesting. I'm pretty sure that Cyril Freezer originally intended Minories to be fed by a return loop rather than a fiddle yard so the train of suburban coaches you'd just sent out would return a couple of trains later with the loco at the other end.  It was the operation of the intensive service with arriving locos having to be worked onto subsequent departures that would make it more interesting than a GWR BLT rather than the variety of trains . It was designed - as a very portable folding five foot long layout in 3mm/ft scale to coincide with the introduction of TT-3 by Tri-Ang. Their initial stock available included a Jinty 0-6-0T and some Midland suburban coaches- mainline locos and stock came later.

Have to agree. I've actually added 15" to the original plan as I have a recess next to a chimney breast that is useful space. I could have fitted a turntable in but since the train length is already down to 4 coaches. A tender loco would knock it down to 3.(Assuming shorter suburban coaches.)  And it adds some balance to the model. I like a lot of Mr Freezers plans but they are often a bit too much in the space. Using large & medium radius points and taking a bit out seems to make them more realistic. Added a carriage siding for parcels traffic. A favourite of Mr Freezer..

 A simple traverser would save space in place of loops but since one surburban train looks very much like another. Loops would enhance the operating experience. And all the stock is then stored on show. Cromptonnut has got me thinking. So many great tank engines available at the moment.  Scale scenes buildings and retaining walls. You could axe the sidings and use dmu's or sprinters. But if modern image It would work pretty well in N. Perhaps a little longer. With a few inches behind for a street scene. Though steam is my thing..... 

Inspiration from L2 City specials from Plans for larger layouts. CJ Freezer. 2nd edition.

Edit to show it all works with code75. One point next to the single slip would need trimming. And to add carriage siding between platforms 1 & 2. 

Edited July 27, 2016 by L&Y

[cromptonnut]

I'd definitely do it with modern units - all those tasty SR EMU's... and of course a parcels dock at the back as that would be the perfect place for my MLV, or 45 plus rake of parcels coaches.

 

But I'd need at least 8 carriage length in the platform and subsequent storage facilities so that would start to get space-hungry.

 

Following on of course from your "units on display" idea then you could have carriage sidings in the middle of the two pairs of main lines as they diverge, then a hidden couple of loops - perhaps two sidings per pair - enabling you to run out and back round.

 

Only downside is needing a reverse loop unit or two but DCC fits the concept perfectly.

Edited July 26, 2016 by cromptonnut

[Zomboid]

The problem with Marylebone is that the tunnel may have four or five tracks entering at the station end but shortly after entering the tunnel it becomes large enough for two tracks only and according to my research has never been a four track tunnel at any time since it was built although when built there may have been room to add two extra tracks but that ability was lost many years ago.

Only the real thing. In our make believe world of trainsets the 4 tracks could continue for 45 miles if you so wished with none of the civil engineering costs of digging a tunnel through St Johns Wood.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Only the real thing. In our make believe world of trainsets the 4 tracks could continue for 45 miles if you so wished with none of the civil engineering costs of digging a tunnel through St Johns Wood.

The way that Chiltern keeps expanding, they may yet need to have those four tracks.

[PatB]

At least one of CJF's suggestions for Minories' fiddle yard was simply a length of track with a loco spur so that the same train could be worked repeatedly into and out of the station by (presumably) the same two locos..

 

Edit: Actually, I think you might need three. One to work the train into the station, one in the station loco spur to work it back to the fiddle yard and one waiting in the fiddle yard spur to work it into the station again, where the first engine, having moved to the station loco spur, would work it back out.

Edited July 27, 2016 by PatB

[L&Y]

Yes Cromptonnut. 

 

I'd definitely do it with modern units - all those tasty SR EMU's... and of course a parcels dock at the back as that would be the perfect place for my MLV, or 45 plus rake of parcels coaches.

 

But I'd need at least 8 carriage length in the platform and subsequent storage facilities so that would start to get space-hungry.

 

Following on of course from your "units on display" idea then you could have carriage sidings in the middle of the two pairs of main lines as they diverge, then a hidden couple of loops - perhaps two sidings per pair - enabling you to run out and back round.

 

Only downside is needing a reverse loop unit or two but DCC fits the concept perfectly.

Yes. If you want a four track approach something has to give. Theres so much point work in the approach that the platforms get squeezed. I would run 4 coach trains. But with modern image it's less convincing. Also modern coaches are longer than the old 57'. It would certainly be improved with some extra storage sidings in the loops. At least for a parcels train. I would want somewhere for the loco coal train. You wouldn't need the shed. Extra carriage sidings would be more use. I just really like the station approach. And with loops the thing runs itself. Just whatever you send out will be back in a couple of minutes. I slotted a carriage siding in to see what it looked like. The board is down to 22" at the moment but would need to be back to 2 foot for a better island platform. Costed the point work out at £350 in Peco. In steam guise it would be a great exhibition layout. Not too big to cart about. But interesting. Though not sure I'd want to run it for a weekend. Not without DCC & a computer to do the hard work. Good fun messing with plans though.... You could always add an other 3' of platform just for exhibitions! And store them underneath when not needed...... 

[Chris116]

If the layout was going to use a straight fiddle yard then extra sidings for whatever use the owner wants could be laid in front of the fiddle yard extending the viewing area to the full length of the layout.

[Ian_H]

If the layout was going to use a straight fiddle yard then extra sidings for whatever use the owner wants could be laid in front of the fiddle yard extending the viewing area to the full length of the layout.

A bit like The Laird's "Bradfield Gloucester Square", always worth a look http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/28198-bradfield-gloucester-square-br-1962-ish/

 

There are a number of nice very good videos "The Bradfield Chronicles" from say page 21 on wards.

Edited July 27, 2016 by Ian_H

[dana]

Re Kings cross in  model railroad  form  as a plan  

http://www.freetrackplans.com/1011-Kings-Cross.php

[Titan]

Re Kings cross in  model railroad  form  as a plan  

http://www.freetrackplans.com/1011-Kings-Cross.php

 

It looks like the track plan is a much earlier track layout than the one shown in google maps. There should be several three way points in the track plan on the tunnel exits which would knock another foot or two off the length of the plan.

[DCB]

Have to agree. I've actually added 15" to the original plan as I have a recess next to a chimney breast that is useful space. I could have fitted a turntable in but since the train length is already down to 4 coaches. A tender loco would knock it down to 3.(Assuming shorter suburban coaches.)  And it adds some balance to the model. I like a lot of Mr Freezers plans but they are often a bit too much in the space. Using large & medium radius points and taking a bit out seems to make them more realistic. Added a carriage siding for parcels traffic. A favourite of Mr Freezer..

 A simple traverser would save space in place of loops but since one surburban train looks very much like another. Loops would enhance the operating experience. And all the stock is then stored on show. Cromptonnut has got me thinking. So many great tank engines available at the moment.  Scale scenes buildings and retaining walls. You could axe the sidings and use dmu's or sprinters. But if modern image It would work pretty well in N. Perhaps a little longer. With a few inches behind for a street scene. Though steam is my thing..... 

Inspiration from L2 City specials from Plans for larger layouts. CJ Freezer. 2nd edition.

Edit to show it all works with code75. One point next to the single slip would need trimming. And to add carriage siding between platforms 1 & 2. 

Double minories code75-2.jpg

I only just noticed this thread. I'm just wondering whether the two short platforms should be lengthened at the expense of the station building equal length platforms are good or longer arrivals than departures.  I feel 5 MK1s is about the minimum for a semifast or 5 suburbans for an outer suburban .  The arrangements for getting released engines to shed, if that is what that is in the right hand top corner look a bit tortuous.   Are the lines paired Up slow Up Fast or Up.

Slow Down Slow.  Paralell moves on adjacent tracks look good but need careful setting up to get best visuals. A departure, simultaneous arrival and a parallel shunt move alongside the arrival look good but you do end up with a big workload (And sometimes turn the wrong knob and hit the buffers at high speed)  I do wonder whether in practice you would actually be able to run more than one train at a time on the Double Minories.

 

The Marylebone plans show the tracks paired Up Slow Down Slow etc so did the slow lines just end at a brick wall in the tunnel?  They could not have combined in the tunnel.  Incidentally after being designed for 6 platform faces back in 1890 something it took from 1899 to 2006 to actually get the extra platforms added.    The LNER liked simultaneous departures from Waverley and even the Cross, and sometimes started two trains together knowing one had to follow the other north of Welwyn as it was down to double track.  I guess Grandstanding is prototypical

[L&Y]

David, In plan L2 (9'6X5'6) Mr Freezer has another station that feeds this one before the reversing loop. The 4 tracks go down to 2 before the simple single track loop. The carriage sidings and goods facilities are at this station. So the intention must have been for the lines paired as up slow up fast/down fast down slow.  Mr Freezer usually put deliberate snarling up operations into his plans to make the operation more interesting. So a deal of shunting is built in. So there should always be something going on between arrivals and departures. The plan is basically his except I have replace two points with the single slip & used large curved radius points instead of the plain as I think they look more prototypical. The top loco spur has lengthened into a short parcels bay to add operational interest. And the central carriage siding also. The platforms would be better a bit longer but then they wouldn't fit into my loft room!  The station building is where it is for visual balance but it could be scaled down a bit & the departure platforms lengthened somewhat. The plan was meant to be for an  intensive suburban service exclusively for tank engines. But a small tender engine could easily be run light around the loop if you wanted the variety.  Mostly I think that there could only be one departure or arrival at a  time or the single handed operator would be overwhelmed. It's just a bit of fun really while recovering from a chest infection. But the plan came out better than I expected & I wouldn't mind giving it a go. Just for the look of trains running through the junction. It has an appeal of it's own. There are some fine tank engines available at the moment so with the whole thing could be built up in a reasonable time scale. Although Mr Freezers plan was originally meant for the steam age. It would convert fairly easily for modern image. 

[Joseph_Pestell]

David, In plan L2 (9'6X5'6) Mr Freezer has another station that feeds this one before the reversing loop. The 4 tracks go down to 2 before the simple single track loop. The carriage sidings and goods facilities are at this station. So the intention must have been for the lines paired as up slow up fast/down fast down slow.  Mr Freezer usually put deliberate snarling up operations into his plans to make the operation more interesting. So a deal of shunting is built in. So there should always be something going on between arrivals and departures. The plan is basically his except I have replace two points with the single slip & used large curved radius points instead of the plain as I think they look more prototypical. The top loco spur has lengthened into a short parcels bay to add operational interest. And the central carriage siding also. The platforms would be better a bit longer but then they wouldn't fit into my loft room!  The station building is where it is for visual balance but it could be scaled down a bit & the departure platforms lengthened somewhat. The plan was meant to be for an  intensive suburban service exclusively for tank engines. But a small tender engine could easily be run light around the loop if you wanted the variety.  Mostly I think that there could only be one departure or arrival at a  time or the single handed operator would be overwhelmed. It's just a bit of fun really while recovering from a chest infection. But the plan came out better than I expected & I wouldn't mind giving it a go. Just for the look of trains running through the junction. It has an appeal of it's own. There are some fine tank engines available at the moment so with the whole thing could be built up in a reasonable time scale. Although Mr Freezers plan was originally meant for the steam age. It would convert fairly easily for modern image. 

 

I remember that as one of his best plans. It's all a bit tight in that space but as a basic design it is difficult to better for operation and would make a really good layout in say 12' x 8'.

[The Stationmaster]

Nice, but rather long throat (in 4mm) for most of us.

 

Simples - just take out the two double running junctions and you have two station sections side by side (which could be further shortened). 

[Foulounoux]

Re Kings cross in  model railroad  form  as a plan  

http://www.freetrackplans.com/1011-Kings-Cross.php

 

That was my contribution to the site a couple of years ago

Trouble is I prefer dmu,deltics and 31s in early 70's but the post "clearing the throat " layout is much simpler

 

Colin