Passenger name regulation could destroy cross-border rail

[APOLLO]

Just back from three weeks in Thailand. We Brits get 30 days stay there, (unless you apply for a longer stay visa). At immigration you hand an immigration card (given to you on the plane to fill in) - basic details of stay. Your passport is stamped, passport scanned and your photo taken, you are on their system, all within one or two minutes. When you leave the above details are checked, and you are fined if you overstay, small fine for a day or so but it then rises. 

 

Simple but effective system - everyone (Thai's included) are counted in and counted out. Why don't we do that (even on Eurostar).

 

IF the Scots ever got independence & joined the EU (which I doubt) then a procedure similar to above must be implemented in my view. Easy to do - we are an Island race.

 

Brit15

[DCB]

Does anyone really think making a note of a suicide bombers name is going to change anything?   The only people not inconvenienced will be the Jihadis.    Maybe Brussels should follow the UK lead and make rail travel too expensive for Terrorists.

[4630]

. 

[APOLLO]

Came back to Manchester (T1) via Copenhagen. Family & I all used the scanners, which took less than a minute each after around a 5 mins queue,  No problem, seems a good innovation.

 

Brit15

[The Stationmaster]

Just back from three weeks in Thailand. We Brits get 30 days stay there, (unless you apply for a longer stay visa). At immigration you hand an immigration card (given to you on the plane to fill in) - basic details of stay. Your passport is stamped, passport scanned and your photo taken, you are on their system, all within one or two minutes. When you leave the above details are checked, and you are fined if you overstay, small fine for a day or so but it then rises. 

 

Simple but effective system - everyone (Thai's included) are counted in and counted out. Why don't we do that (even on Eurostar).

 

IF the Scots ever got independence & joined the EU (which I doubt) then a procedure similar to above must be implemented in my view. Easy to do - we are an Island race.

 

Brit15

 

Actually you are counted in and out on Eurostar but it is literally a count (unless passports are scanned in) as a  headcount has to be provided to Eurotunnel for each E'star passing through the Tunnel.

[rockershovel]

I've been flying through LHR regularly the last four years or so, and I don't believe I've EVER been through the scanner gates, because they are almost never in use.

 

I've been told on a number of occasions, by Polish and East European colleagues, that smuggling undocumented workers into UK using passports retained by gangmasters is commonplace, and with a bit of care it is quite easy to fool the photo-match software; less so for face-to-face checking

[Grovenor]

I've been flying through LHR regularly the last four years or so, and I don't believe I've EVER been through the scanner gates, because they are almost never in use.

I think you maybe thinking of different gates, the e-gates at LHR T2 were newly installed and under test when I came back though in mid August.

Are you thinking of the retina scanners that seem to have been in departures for ages and not noticeably in use?

Regards

[Edwin_m]

St Pancras was installing e-gates last time I passed through (about 6 months ago). 

[Edwin_m]

Just back from three weeks in Thailand. We Brits get 30 days stay there, (unless you apply for a longer stay visa). At immigration you hand an immigration card (given to you on the plane to fill in) - basic details of stay. Your passport is stamped, passport scanned and your photo taken, you are on their system, all within one or two minutes. When you leave the above details are checked, and you are fined if you overstay, small fine for a day or so but it then rises. 

 

Simple but effective system - everyone (Thai's included) are counted in and counted out. Why don't we do that (even on Eurostar).

 

IF the Scots ever got independence & joined the EU (which I doubt) then a procedure similar to above must be implemented in my view. Easy to do - we are an Island race.

 

Brit15

Quite easy to do at an airport, much less so for a land border crossed by hundreds of minor roads, unless you wish to close them all and build a wall (have to get some Poles in to do it!).  And if it isn't done comprehensively then the potential terrorist is willing to take the trouble to find an unguarded crossing and the inconvenience falls on the legitimate traveller. 

 

That is the case for Belgium today if it imposes ID checks, for the UK in future if the Brexit arrangement removes free movement across the Irish land border (we aren't actually an island race!), and potentially also for Scotland if Brexit prompts them to go independent.  How would East Coast survive if Eurostar-type checks were required for cross-border trains, so that even passengers wholly within England on these trains had to show passports? 

[pete_mcfarlane]

That is the case for Belgium today if it imposes ID checks, for the UK in future if the Brexit arrangement removes free movement across the Irish land border (we aren't actually an island race!), and potentially also for Scotland if Brexit prompts them to go independent.  How would East Coast survive if Eurostar-type checks were required for cross-border trains, so that even passengers wholly within England on these trains had to show passports? 

Free movement to and from the Irish Republic is entirely independent of the EU, and is through something called the Common Travel Area.

 

I'd imagine East Coast would be OK, as most of their traffic is over shorter distances. They could probably survive on the Grantham/Peterborough commuter services alone. 

[EddieB]

Just back from three weeks in Thailand. We Brits get 30 days stay there, (unless you apply for a longer stay visa). At immigration you hand an immigration card (given to you on the plane to fill in) - basic details of stay. Your passport is stamped, passport scanned and your photo taken, you are on their system, all within one or two minutes. When you leave the above details are checked, and you are fined if you overstay, small fine for a day or so but it then rises. 

 

Simple but effective system - everyone (Thai's included) are counted in and counted out. Why don't we do that (even on Eurostar).

 

All very efficient when dealing with a major international airport and everyone playing by the rules.  But when it comes to Thailand, don't forget the "golden triangle" which is home to many ethnic non-Thais (and quite a few drug dealers) who don't recognise international borders, immigration controls and visas...

 

Singapore might be a better example, with limited points of ingress, efficient border controls and severe penalties for any kind of rule-breaking within the country.  Even then, the possibility exists to jump ship and swim ashore hoping to avoid the coastguards.  Which I guess proves there are nearly always going to be weak points in any system (but then, I can't imagine any attempts to immigrate illegally into North Korea).

 

But, more to the point, did you escape Thailand with any pictures of Shovel-noses?

[adb968008]

Actually you are counted in and out on Eurostar but it is literally a count (unless passports are scanned in) as a  headcount has to be provided to Eurotunnel for each E'star passing through the Tunnel.

Wouldn't they just count the number of tickets scanned at the machine ?

[adb968008]

It's only a matter of time before GPS is mandatory in cars, and if all train tickets are by credit card, bus services by rfid (like oyster) and GPS is followed by phones the populace at large are lit up can be tracked and traced on demand.

 

Turn out the lights and the only ones still moving must be upto no good.

At this stage your average back pack bomber will need to be without phone, credit card and car or public transport to move abouts internationally.... kind of like WW2 commandos..

 

Does it solve it ?

 

It's not always the end guy you want, if there's a cash trail you can follow, you ultimately move up the food chain, get those at the top and then cut off those other branches below that you don't know.

[rockershovel]

Re #65, #66 I'd regard hypothetical problems with hypothetical border checks by a hypothetical future independent Scotland as very much a case for Occam's Razor, for the time being

[Coryton]

That is the case for Belgium today if it imposes ID checks, for the UK in future if the Brexit arrangement removes free movement across the Irish land border (we aren't actually an island race!), and potentially also for Scotland if Brexit prompts them to go independent.  How would East Coast survive if Eurostar-type checks were required for cross-border trains, so that even passengers wholly within England on these trains had to show passports? 

 

The Czech and Slovak republics coped when they split up from Czechoslovakia and introduced passport checks between the two countries. There must have been many land crossings. I don't know how they handled things but trains didn't seem to be a problem because the passports were checked on the trains so nobody had to show anything unless travelling cross-border.

 

Of course now they are both in Schengen and things are back as before.

[APOLLO]

All very efficient when dealing with a major international airport and everyone playing by the rules.  But when it comes to Thailand, don't forget the "golden triangle" which is home to many ethnic non-Thais (and quite a few drug dealers) who don't recognise international borders, immigration controls and visas...

 

Singapore might be a better example, with limited points of ingress, efficient border controls and severe penalties for any kind of rule-breaking within the country.  Even then, the possibility exists to jump ship and swim ashore hoping to avoid the coastguards.  Which I guess proves there are nearly always going to be weak points in any system (but then, I can't imagine any attempts to immigrate illegally into North Korea).

 

But, more to the point, did you escape Thailand with any pictures of Shovel-noses?

 

Yes Thailand does have immigration problems mainly with Burmese, Laos & Cambodians - but these people are mainly of the same ethnic / religious groups, as Thais and tend to do menial work for cash in hand, so just the tax dept that suffers !!. Doesn't seem to be a big problem. The ongoing & recent trouble in the south is basically with Thai muslims, who want independence, Malaysians (who are mostly Muslims) do not seem to be a problem at all. 

 

We went to the "Golden Triangle" a couple of years ago - a quite beautiful area on the Mekong river where Thailand joins Burma and Laos., No problems for tourists there these days (well, we had no problems !!).

 

Sorry, no train pix, family live miles from the nearest railway, though we did see significant earthworks on the line up to Saraburi from Laem Chabang port, Double tracking / standard gauging a route through to China that by-passes Bangkok. I was told many immigrant Burmese are working on this line. For info lots of new railway work going on around Bangkok, new elevated metro lines and a huge multi level interchange station is currently being built at Chatuchack (North Bangkok) which will link new metro lines, existing metre gauge main lines and the proposed new high speed line to the north - now in the planning stage.

 

Brit15

[Edwin_m]

Free movement to and from the Irish Republic is entirely independent of the EU, and is through something called the Common Travel Area.

 

I'd imagine East Coast would be OK, as most of their traffic is over shorter distances. They could probably survive on the Grantham/Peterborough commuter services alone. 

My point is that if we are to "take control of our borders" and deny entry to terrorist/criminals/migrants/whoever, there is an obvious loophole in Ireland. 

[jjb1970]

They were in a position to drop aid by air, which had been requested (and was possible), but which didn't happen until late on and then either what was dropped was of little value or indeed was dropped in German held areas. Then there was the whole farce of dropping equipment cannisters without parachutes.

Of course none of them wanted to upset Stalin at the upcoming Yalta conference.

I found it interesting that there's an entire segment at the Warsaw Uprising museum about reaction/assistance from the allies.

Even if the Soviet's had allowed the RAF to land and refuel in Soviet held areas to increase the payload of each aircraft the RAF would not have been able to supply a city the size of Warsaw. RAF aircraft had to fly from bases in the UK and Italy and make a round trip which severely limited payload, to make a flight of that distance at night using the navigation techniques available it is not really surprising a lot of the supplies failed to find the Pole's. The Soviet air force was an awful lot nearer but lacked airlift capacity, what it did have in huge numbers which could have made a big difference was close air support aircraft yet they made virtually no effort to provide such support. The Western Allies had massive logistical problems of their own in August and September 1944. All told whilst the RAF might have been able to do more, I'm not sure it could have done that much more even if the Soviets had made airstrips available and it certainly wouldn't have been able to stave off Polish defeat under any circumstances. Ultimately the Pole's made a monumental miscalculation in thinking the German army was about to collapse as well as under estimating Stalin's ruthlessness. The people who are to blame for the savagery with which the uprising was suppressed were the SS, the blame for standing by and watching the uprising fail without rendering assistance is with the USSR and the responsibility for launching an ill adventure lies with the Pole's. The role of the Western allies was peripheral at best and it is disingenuous of the Pole's to claim that the Western Allies were in a position to save Warsaw.

[jjb1970]

On the subject of passport controls on trains, I don't think that is the real problem. Countries all over the world maintain border controls and despite a few slips checks are reasonably speedy and efficient. The real issue is that the EU is now so interwoven and the infrastructure for such checks within the Schengen area has gone so that trying to re-introduce checks would be a major headache.