Farish announce C Class, all new 8F, refurb Class 31, Thompson coaches and TEA

[grahame]

Hi Tom

 

I agree with all you say above.

 

The only point I would make is that we can only support the growth of the market if there are new products from them to buy.

Not quite. I suggest you are supporting the market (and helping it grow) by simply buying product. It can be secondhand, or existing stock. It can be what was released last year but it doesn't have to be what was newly released yesterday.

 

G

[Roy L S]

Not quite. I suggest you are supporting the market (and helping it grow) by simply buying product. It can be secondhand, or existing stock. It can be what was released last year but it doesn't have to be what was newly released yesterday.

 

G

 

A fair argument Grahame, but the way I see it is that growth will only come from the manufacture and sale of new models, either re-treads from existing tooling or brand new, i.e. adding to the volume of models in the market and here, as far as BachFarish are concerned the is nothing I am interested in, and I am sure I am not alone, I am simply waiting. if I have satisfied my requirements from their existing range of products then there is little I can do to support growth in their market share.

 

Secondhand, unless people cascade down some of their older stock because it has been replaced by new will be just a "churn" of what is already out there, arguably the less new people buy the less they pass on which is why the price of secondhand N is on the rise.  

 

It's not that I don't have money to spend, just that until we see the next round of their promised products there is nothing more I would like even under "Rule 1". So if they get a shift on I'm in for a lot of new Farish models as soon as they arrive!

 

To be clear though I am referring specifically to Farish's market share of N, I have other products closer on the horizon like NGS Carflats (imminent - just paid), RevolutioN Class Bs hopefully within a couple of months and those NGS Hunslets upon which tooling is underway and which promise to be awesome little models. 

 

Regards

 

Roy

[bingley hall]

I had a long chat with the Bachmann guys at Alexandra Palace, and I sensed some frustration that despite the significant improvements they have introduced to N Gauge in terms of detail, features like DCC & Sound & lighting and significantly improved running qualities, their N Gauge market remains steadfastly between 20-30% of the OO range. Looking at the range and quality of the latest Farish models, I feel their frustration is justified. 

 

Tom. 

 

They may be frustrated, but there are things that are working against them that may be frustrating their potential customers. The huge increase in prices would be paramount. They are what they are, but there is only so much money to go around and regardless of the huge advances in detail and performance if people don't have the money then market share ain't going to increase. I only buy bargains and pre-owned these days.

 

Variety and new models as already mentioned would also be a factor - on the odd occasion I do have some spare cash I'm biting the bullet and 'donating' it to Revolution and DJM.

[DCB]

Its not exactly rocket science that the N gauge market is much smaller than 00 as much of the improvements in N gauge are literally invisible.  N gauge is too small for many of us, 00 is good, so by extension so should H0 be as it shares the same gauge but what is the use of detail you need a magnifying glass to see?.   Somehow Dapol seem to make a better fist of N gauge locos than Farish but the price is now prohibitive to anyone starting out. The price vis a vis other similar semi electronic products which continue to fall steadily or rapidly in real terms.  Plenty of modellers are retirement age and while they will collect the new releases without new blood the market will contract not least because retirement pensions are declining rapidly in real terms.    Long term moving to small batch production  in the UK on a to order basis with mail order/ web sales only instead of model shops stocking product is the only sustainable business model.

[grahame]

the way I see it is that growth will only come from the manufacture and sale of new models, either re-treads from existing tooling or brand new, i.e. adding to the volume of models in the market and here, as far as BachFarish are concerned the is nothing I am interested in, and I am sure I am not alone, I am simply waiting.if I have satisfied my requirements from their existing range of products then there is little I can do to support growth in their market share.

 

Maybe you are not aware of the circulation of money and multiplier effect within a market of increasing spend or are mistaking your personal spend preferences with that of the market as a whole. Even if you are satisfied and choose not to purchase any more it doesn't mean that others cannot be tempted in to the market to buy existing product to help grow the market.

 

However, I note you are now recognising that batches of re-runs (rather than only all newly developed models) would suffice if that is what people are happy with - I was under the impression from your earlier posts that you were intimating that only the provision of all newly developed product would grow the market. But it does require stock to be available on retailers shelves. Fortunately manufacturers do seem to be knocking out re-run batches of models from their existing ranges, although once the supply dries up (as it did in the early years of the 21st century when Bachmann bought out Farish) and supply fails to meet demand then the market will contract. 

 

Hopefully spend in the market will allow manufacturers (and give them confidence) to re-invest and develop new product to grow the N gauge market even more. But there are also many other factors for them to also consider.

 

G.

[grahame]

. . . .  the improvements in N gauge are literally invisible.

No, they're not invisible. I can see them and most people recognise the improvements in N gauge products over the years.

 

N gauge is too small for many of us, 00 is good, so by extension so should H0 be as it shares the same gauge but what is the use of detail you need a magnifying glass to see?.

Sounds like the dangerous and ironic mantra 'four feet good, two feet bad'.

 

G.

[whart57]

Nah, N is too small, OO is too big, 3mm Scale is perfect.    

 

However I am thinking ahead to when scratch and kit building might become too difficult and OO not fit in the down-sized housing, so when an N gauge model of something I am interested in comes up then I'll lay it in. I wonder if Farish will do an H in the next ten years, it would be a better match for those birdcages

[TomE]

Its not exactly rocket science that the N gauge market is much smaller than 00 as much of the improvements in N gauge are literally invisible.  N gauge is too small for many of us, 00 is good, so by extension so should H0 be as it shares the same gauge but what is the use of detail you need a magnifying glass to see?.   Somehow Dapol seem to make a better fist of N gauge locos than Farish but the price is now prohibitive to anyone starting out. The price vis a vis other similar semi electronic products which continue to fall steadily or rapidly in real terms.  Plenty of modellers are retirement age and while they will collect the new releases without new blood the market will contract not least because retirement pensions are declining rapidly in real terms.    Long term moving to small batch production  in the UK on a to order basis with mail order/ web sales only instead of model shops stocking product is the only sustainable business model.

 

I don't think anyone was suggesting it's rocket science, but for a long time N Gauge modellers were crying out for better and more finessed detail. Now Bachmann have delivered that it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect some growth in the scale as people who previously looked on N gauge as 'crude' re-evaluate that opinion. Equally other factors such as shrinking house sizes (The UK has the smallest new homes by area in Western Europe) would point to the market being ripe for N Gauge to start moving beyond the fabled 20-30% level of OO sales. 

 

In terms of price, we all know the reasons why prices have increased as they have over the past 10 years but irrespective of the economic factors, the prices probably now reflect the true value of the product. Recent releases like Classes 40 & 68 put British N Gauge more or less on par with the European models that were so often regarded as the holy grail. You can't expect to have that and pay Poole era prices, but to get to your point about prices falling, that won't happen if the market isn't growing, and that's probably the biggest challenge N Gauge now faces. 

 

Tom. 

[justin1985]

what is the use of detail you need a magnifying glass to see?.   Somehow Dapol seem to make a better fist of N gauge locos than Farish but the price is now prohibitive to anyone starting out.

 

Hilarious!

 

Just take a look at the Dapol LNER B1 compared to the Farish one. Only one of them looks like a B1, and it comes in a black and yellow box. The Class 68 might be a bit of a new dawn for Dapol, but the consensus on pretty much all recent N gauge models has tended to be that there is little room for improvement on most Farish models, whereas many Dapol models are flawed in one way or another - often mechanically, sometimes visually. 

 

Discounts might not be as generous on N gauge as OO gauge because of the smaller market, but once again we need to remember that the costs of making a model don't have much relationship to their physical size. It costs just as much, if not more, to design, tool, and assemble a smaller model than a larger one. The plastic and metal are insignificant aspects of the costs. 

 

And the old chestnut about detail being too small to see is such nonsense. The smallest detail on a modern O or OO model is exactly the same physical size as on an N one. The bigger the model, the more of the finest detail has to be made as separate parts or included in the printing. On a smaller model, more of that very fine detail is better reduced to representations on the main moulding or left off the printing.

 

Ergo, if you model in O "because I couldn't see anything in N", you're going to be making a hash of that O scale model, and missing the detail that that scale demands!

 

Justin

[Portpatrick]

I think I see the point Justin has just made about detail.  (I went for the Farish B! by the way).  Though one attraction of N to me is that you can leave off some of the detail which would be more obvious in a larger scale.   I would muck up in O gauge, in part because suffering from Essential Tremor, I do not have the dexterity of many of you.  On other issues I am sure we need to see a mix of reruns (newer modellers or those expanding will want to double up on locos and have more rafts of wagons and rakes of coaches).  But We also want to see new items whether from  crowd funded or regular sources.  I am participating in a few of those.  And I wish our 2 main manufacturers would concentrate on bringing long promised models to market, such as Dapol and the Pacer (not that I want one of those) and the Farish Thompsons which personally I do want.  I also admit I had hoped they had abandoned their practice of announcing models before they were well enough advanced that they would appear in the shops in shorter timescales than 2 years or more (think of the Farish Ivatt a beautiful model which was announced some 6 years before it appeared, I now have 2).

 

The level of accuracy and detail today is indeed vastly superior than when I started in N in 1976, though they demand very careful handling when moving to and from exhibitions.  I still have and regularly run a Minitrix Brit  alongside the Dapol version.  The earlier point about older locos being either full speed or stop is only partly true.  I have in the past had Minitrix 9F, 27s and the 2 Ivatts.  The only running issue was the lack of pulling power of the Ivatt Moguls.  My Brit , now running as a Clan, is still a sweet runner as were the others when I replaced them.  Indeed the experience of some I know who had Dapol's first release M7s, Ivatt tank, GWR Praries was that they did tend to be full speed or stop.  And their earlier 9Fs had issues with leading bogies.  Some of these matters do seem to have been sorted.  My own 2nd release Ivatt tank is fine.  My own experience is that newer Farish releases have mostly run well after running in - the fairburn tanks being the most touchy.  But I still have a few old 3 pole Poole locos, notably the Compounds, which are sweet and controllable runners even though over 30 years old.  The issue I and others I know have had with A1, A2 and B1 valve gear lies in a flimsy plastic bracket with a metal moving joint.  My late father as an engineer would have seen that mix of metal and plastic  as a potential engineering disaster!  For those which have not come apart, with the bracket getting lost, I have carefully superglued the plastic bracket in place.  So far so good.

 

To get back on topic it is the Thompsons I have on pre order but I hope that those waiting for the other goodies do not have to wait as long as we did for the Ivatts.  I have seen in the past comments about not biting the (manufacturer's) hand which feeds us.  That cuts both ways.  No business will survive without customers.  No customers means no sales means no profit.  Manufacturers must also avoid biting the hand which feeds them, namely their ultimate customers - us.  Otherwise we may change to American or Continental, change scale or even find another hobby.  WE need each other.

[Davexoc]

Plenty of modellers are retirement age and while they will collect the new releases without new blood the market will contract not least because retirement pensions are declining rapidly in real terms.    Long term moving to small batch production  in the UK on a to order basis with mail order/ web sales only instead of model shops stocking product is the only sustainable business model.

If you think that small batch production is the way forward and sustainable, look at the CJM website where each loco will set you back over £500.

How do you consider that affordable on so called declining pensions?

The state pension was triple-locked anyway, whereas some of us haven't seen a pay increase in the last three years......

[Roy L S]

 

Maybe you are not aware of the circulation of money and multiplier effect within a market of increasing spend or are mistaking your personal spend preferences with that of the market as a whole. Even if you are satisfied and choose not to purchase any more it doesn't mean that others cannot be tempted in to the market to buy existing product to help grow the market.

 

However, I note you are now recognising that batches of re-runs (rather than only all newly developed models) would suffice if that is what people are happy with - I was under the impression from your earlier posts that you were intimating that only the provision of all newly developed product would grow the market. But it does require stock to be available on retailers shelves. Fortunately manufacturers do seem to be knocking out re-run batches of models from their existing ranges, although once the supply dries up (as it did in the early years of the 21st century when Bachmann bought out Farish) and supply fails to meet demand then the market will contract. 

 

Hopefully spend in the market will allow manufacturers (and give them confidence) to re-invest and develop new product to grow the N gauge market even more. But there are also many other factors for them to also consider.

 

G.

 

Hi Grahame

 

I wasn't intending to suggest that ​only brand newly tooled products would grow the Market, clearly that would be nonsense. No business would survive unless they "sweat the assets" and produce more models with different running numbers etc from established (and very likely paid for) tooling. Demand for these may well be quite strong, especially if a given model has been unavailable for some time and different running numbers an attraction to modellers who wish to add a further loco wagon or coach of the same type to their fleet without renumbering.

 

To an large extent though the "frothing" tends to ensue upon announcement of brand new models, it is these that typically get more space in the modelling press hence publicity for the scale. The Class 40 is a case in point, Bachmann shifted their entire first run to dealers in no time, and I would suggest the quality and features in that model (Next 18 interface, plug and play sound cab lights etc) were a positive step up for N and not only do they represent developments that keep longstanding modellers like me engaged, the also attract people who would not necessarily have considered British N before. It is here that new models do something that re-treads do not, and therein lies their significance,

 

Regards

 

Roy

[TomE]

There is a CAD image for the 8F in the latest Bachmann Collectors Club magazine. Difficult to pass any judgement on it from one image, but it looks very much like an 8F! 

 

Also shown are CADs for the Mk.2 F DBSO and Thompson CK. 

 

The 8F and Mk.2s are listed as in the Tool Room, whilst the Thompsons are listed as EP samples received. 

 

Tom.  

Edited June 4, 2018 by TomE

[grahame]

. . . whilst the Thompsons are listed as EP samples received. 

 

 

It actually says "EP samples have been received or are awaited for" so they might not have them yet. Although with only the Thompson coaches listed in that category I'm surprised they don't know which it is for them.

;-)

 

G

[TomE]

Since its now in the public domain courtesy of Hattons:

 

 

Tom.

[TomE]

And the Thompsons:

 

 

Tom

[Roy L S]

Since its now in the public domain courtesy of Hattons:

 

FF0D2F4F-BCA7-4523-86A9-B5DB8254E015.jpeg

 

Tom.

 

I just hope it has traction tyres, the gent I spoke to on the Bachmann stand at Quorn couldn't confirm it would. A heavy freight loco that can't pull a realistic length train would be an epic fail no matter how pretty it is, so Bachmann, if you are reading this please don't spoil the ship for a "hapenneth of tar". Certainly the WDs with incorrectly recessed tyres (effectively no tyres) from all accounts couldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding and both of mine with correctly fitted tyres are happy with 35 wagons at least!

 

Roy

[TomE]

Personally I’d much prefer if it didn’t have traction tyres! Heinous things!

 

Tom.

[queensquare]

Personally I’d much prefer if it didn’t have traction tyres! Heinous things!

 

Tom.

 

I'd agree with Tom, horrible things and very good at spreading dirt.

 

Jerry

[Roy L S]

Personally I’d much prefer if it didn’t have traction tyres! Heinous things!

 

Tom.

 

Fine if you only want it to pull about 15 wagons.

[Zunnan]

The 8F looks promising, I hope they produce a good slogger here with plenty of weight packed in, and preferably without traction tyres! The ex-Poole 8F is capable of 50+ without traction tyres and mine have been doing that at exhibitions for years, so a target of 40+ for the new tool would be nice. I get a feeling I'll be scavenging Stanier tender drives to give mine a bit more oomph for what I require of them though...

Edited June 21, 2018 by Zunnan

[Chris Higgs]

The 8F looks promising, I hope they produce a good slogger here with plenty of weight packed in, and preferably without traction tyres! The ex-Poole 8F is capable of 50+ without traction tyres and mine have been doing that at exhibitions for years, so a target of 40+ for the new tool would be nice. I get a feeling I'll be scavenging Stanier tender drives to give mine a bit more oomph for what I require of them though...

 

This always the quandry. The Poole 8F has a metal body which gives a boost to haulage capacity but a zero for detail. The Dapol method of motor in tender drive in loco gives much more room for heavy ballast metal in the loco body, than the new Farish motor in loco idea. You cannot pack weight in if there is no space to do it.

 

Drive in loco and tender is indeed a novel thought. You'll have to sacrifice the DCC sound though and I suspect you'll struggle to get the two power units to run at the same speed.

 

Chris

[justin1985]

It's a classic quandary isn't it. At least we can be sure that SOMEONE will moan and say it isn't worth the money, whichever option they take!

[queensquare]

It's a classic quandary isn't it. At least we can be sure that SOMEONE will moan and say it isn't worth the money, whichever option they take!

 

Very true, and to be honest I don't mind either way as I will be changing the wheels anyway!

 

Jerry

[5944]

 

 

Drive in loco and tender is indeed a novel thought. You'll have to sacrifice the DCC sound though and I suspect you'll struggle to get the two power units to run at the same speed.

 

Chris

I've got a Roco Swiss 2-10-0 in HO. The motor is in the tender, and not only powers the tender wheels, but also the driving wheels via a cardan shaft. It also has traction tyres, so can pull pretty much anything!