W&T Palethorpes' 6-wheeler

[Prometheus]

The chassis is now complete and awaits weathering in due course [and some white paint on the brake handles]. Having attached the ends however, I found that the whole unit was 1mm over-length. That would have left a difficult-to-disguise gap between the body shell and a cast end piece and so snapping one end off was the only option. That done, and a sliver cut away from the floor with a fine fret saw, the end was reattached and all was as fine as it ever was going to be.

 

I've still not worked out how I am going to fit couplings yet.

 

 

 

 

All things considered, I think that the chassis now looks acceptable from the side. The brake pull has been rerouted and the replacement end Vee-hangers are an improvement too.The brakes and their hangers were cut away from their original one-piece mouldings and fitted, packed-out, so that the blocks were more in line with the wheel treads.

 

The chassis runs quite nicely and coped with a Peco double slip without mis-behaving. I think that its weight probably has a lot to do with that: the end pieces and the centre support have added some considerable heft.

 

Tony

[Il Grifone]

That is really excellent, but, before it's too late, the van should have right hand brake levers.

 

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8350/8270864840_1695533be7_b.jpg

 

It inspires me to do something about my Hornby van! (Pity it's the inferior LMS vehicle! - I think they are sufficiently different to rule out a conversion.)

[cctransuk]

That is really excellent, but, before it's too late, the van should have right hand brake levers.

 

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8350/8270864840_1695533be7_b.jpg

 

It inspires me to do something about my Hornby van! (Pity it's the inferior LMS vehicle! - I think they are sufficiently different to rule out a conversion.)

 

Not really - see http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/104787-breakfast-special-sausage-milk-cream-van-cut-shuts/ .

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Prometheus]

Thank you for posting that John, it's an interesting thread.

 

If I have understood you correctly David there is certainly some conflict here between the photos. I've seen the one that you posted but see also this, from the box lid of the kit:

 

 

The instruction for the kit [which I have largely ignored] show the same. At some stage the prototype changed?

 

Anyway, it's all too well attached to risk moving now!

 

Thanks for the comments.

 

Tony

Edited July 25, 2017 by Prometheus

[Joseph_Pestell]

I have e-mailed Bob Wyatt (the W of W&T) with a link to this thread. He can no doubt provide some of the answers.

 

W&T did a lot of their own casting but perhaps not all. I don't recall ever seeing the moulds for any of these components so they may indeed have been done elsewhere.

[Prometheus]

Then I very much hope that he is not offended by my comments about the instructions!!

 

Tony

[Scalelinkbob]

Hello, here's an update from the "Horse's Mouth"..

 

The W&T Palethorpes & Milk Van kits I produced in the 1970's used body shells and floors from Mopok for whom we were casting road vehicles & coach parts at the time. The Axleboxes were from Kenline whose products we stocked in our shop (Originally Wyatt & Tizard Ltd, then Wyatt's Model Railways Ltd). until 1987.

The sides and ends were silk-screen printed with relief detail by a local printer.

Some printed sheets are still available if anyone needs them.. The other whitemetal castings:- ends, steps, roof filler box, centre axle housing and brake gear were our own castings and I still have the moulds if anyone needs parts to complete old kits.  W&T is still operating after 45 years and I will retire (or slow down) in 2018 when I reach 80!!

 

W&T kits are now sold through Scale Link Ltd. which I bought in 1991..  Vists the website for more information 

www.scalelink.co.uk or call me on 01747-811817, Mon-Fri, 9am-5pm Closed Thursday 1pm to 3pm. Bob Wyatt

[Prometheus]

Thank you Bob for filling in the gaps. I'll certainly visit the Scalelink website sometime soon.

 

Best wishes

 

Tony

[Il Grifone]

Not really - see http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/104787-breakfast-special-sausage-milk-cream-van-cut-shuts/ .

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

Help another project! I was just going to do something about the underframe....

 

As I understand it, vehicles had to have right hand brakes by 1939.  I assumed (always dangerous) that, this being the case, they would have been built to conform for a considerable period beforehand. Some special cases seem to have missed the deadline in any case and perhaps it didn't apply to NPCS.

It would appear that I've got it wrong  (it wouldn't be the first time and undoubtedly won't be the last!).

Edited July 26, 2017 by Il Grifone

[Prometheus]

With the chassis now complete it was time to assemble and attach the body. Up and until this point I felt that I always knew what I had to do and what would come next: however, with the body, I had no such certainty. The sides were cut from their sheet with a sharp scalpel and a steel rule. It was apparent that they were not wholly square and so had to be cut slightly smaller than required. They were then attached to the acetate shell with contact adhesive. Great care was required for this as only one chance per side was possible: a mistake and the grip of this adhesive is so fierce that adjustment is impossible. So far, so good.

 

The roof was then cut from plastic card and shaped in the usual way using boiling water. A dry run followed, fitting the body and roof to the chassis and ends, but this immediately showed a significant mis-match: the roof dimensions were too small and the printed sides aligned differently on each side. This was a significant problem and something that I had feared. The only solution was drastic surgery. The body shell was cut into three pieces lengthways and the middle cut section cut again to make it narrower. The photographs explain this. The sides were then attached to the body individually, initially tacked with superglue and the joints then reinforced from inside with epoxy resin. Assembling the body in this way allowed for further adjustment and, importantly, invisibly securing the bottom of the sides from the inside. Held fast by epoxy glue, no further reinforcement was required. The thin centre section was then attached to support the top of the top when later fitted.

 

 

 

The original plastic roof set aside, a dummy roof was next cut from paper, increasing by several mm. the measurement of the original and it was offered up to the body. The sides were cut back in stages until a satisfactory fit was obtained and it was then used as a template for the final heavy card roof. I tried using plastic card but, because of the profile, could not achieve the necessary fit. 

 

 

 

You’ll notice that the roof sides have to continue down the sides of the wagon for 1.5mm. This was cosmetically necessary to cover the tops of the printed overlays which, for reasons described above, had to be cut down very slightly. Once weathered, this will not detract from the model visually.

 

A number of further small tasks will lead to completion: steps will be added to the solebars under the doors, buffers will be fitted, rain strips fabricated, a ladder and an ice box fitted and couplings devised. Some areas of black paintwork will then be tidied up and the roof and underframe weathered.

 

Tony

[Il Grifone]

Thank you for posting that John, it's an interesting thread.

 

If I have understood you correctly David there is certainly some conflict here between the photos. I've seen the one that you posted but see also this, from the box lid of the kit:

 

 

The instruction for the kit [which I have largely ignored] show the same. At some stage the prototype changed?

 

Anyway, it's all too well attached to risk moving now!

 

Thanks for the comments.

 

Tony

 

I have found a photo of 3801 (marked, "condemned") with right hand brakes. It looks like they might have been converted after building.

 

http://littlewestern.com/1/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Palethorpes_Van_3.jpg

[Prometheus]

With steps, couplings, buffers, ladder, ice-box and rain strips now added, the model is more or less complete. Once the various washes have dried, I'll weather finally with some powders [the roof, particularly]. I must source some appropriate GWR roundels also.

 

I had forgotten how fiddley card roofs and rain strips were, particularly the rain strips [i decided that one each side was quite enough!]. This was a hugely enjoyable build however, a real return to three or four decades ago and the end result, all things considered, is not too bad. Very little touching-up of the sides was necessary, for those few small scuff and mistings caused by super-glue, acrylic Burnt Sienna and Black mixed up to almost the same shade: it's not noticeable unless you know where to look.

 

 

 

 

I do need something rather less taxing now however! A K's Southern Brake Van [the 25 tonner] has been sitting around for a while. That should be pretty straightforward....

 

Tony

[cctransuk]

 A K's Southern Brake Van [the 25 tonner] has been sitting around for a while. That should be pretty straightforward....

 

Tony

 

Have you built one before?

 

Trust nothing !!

 

A drawing of the prototype is essential, otherwise you may wonder why it towers above other stock !

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Il Grifone]

HMRS do nice transfers for the GWR emblem (others are available). 

 

The K's brake van is fairly straightforward. Mine is still in bits.    It arrived thrown together and came apart again easily except for one of the ends which broke before it would detach from the sandbox. Needless to say, the broken off piece is 'in a safe place'. K's are no longer around to provide their replacement service for broken parts, so I either have to find it or make a replacement - difficult as it is covered with rivets. Not doing it properly will show, as I want to finish it in BR livery, which I understand means no sandboxes.

Edited August 1, 2017 by Il Grifone

[Prometheus]

Have you built one before?

 

Trust nothing !!

 

A drawing of the prototype is essential, otherwise you may wonder why it towers above other stock !

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

Not the Brake Van John. Other 'straightforward' K's van and wagon builds have been fun but trying, so I'm sure this'll follow the traditional path.

 

I have no drawings though: does it tower because it should [i didn't think so] or because, for example, the axle holes have been placed too low?

 

HMRS do nice transfers for the GWR emblem (others are available). 

 

The K's brake van is fairly straightforward. Mine is still in bits.    It arrived thrown together and came apart again easily except for one of the ends which broke before it would detach from the sandbox. Needless to say, the broken off piece is 'in a safe place'. K's are no longer around to provide their replacement service for broken parts, so I either have to find it or make a replacement - difficult as it is covered with rivets. Not doing it properly will show, as I want to finish it in BR livery, which I understand means no sandboxes.

 

I ordered a sheet of Pressfix earlier today David, having exhausted my supply of roundels.

 

My Brake arrived unmade, happily, and the castings are in extremely good condition with little to no flash - possibly an early production, before the moulds started to wear ?  I'd noticed too the fragility of the one piece sand-box/ends - the upright framing is quite thin and needs handling carefully.

 

Tony

[cctransuk]

 

Not the Brake Van John. Other 'straightforward' K's van and wagon builds have been fun but trying, so I'm sure this'll follow the traditional path.

 

I have no drawings though: does it tower because it should [i didn't think so] or because, for example, the axle holes have been placed too low?

 

 

I ordered a sheet of Pressfix earlier today David, having exhausted my supply of roundels.

 

My Brake arrived unmade, happily, and the castings are in extremely good condition with little to no flash - possibly an early production, before the moulds started to wear ?  I'd noticed too the fragility of the one piece sand-box/ends - the upright framing is quite thin and needs handling carefully.

 

Tony

 

Tony,

 

My recollection is that the body is too tall.

 

You have a PM.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Prometheus]

Tony,

 

My recollection is that the body is too tall.

 

You have a PM.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

Spot-on John - and thank you so much again for the information.

 

I've just measured the K's brake van and without wheels it scales out at the height it should have with wheels: a sliver over 11ft. 5ins!

 

It's K's after all, so I could perhaps lose 1mm in body height before fitting the roof and fit slightly smaller wheels, but it's still going to tower a little. Alternatively, I could drill out new axle holes and cover the inner face of the W-irons with thin brass sheet. We'll see...

 

Straightforward?  Hah!

 

Tony 

[Il Grifone]

I've found that with K's kits it's often advisable to fit them with internal wheel bearings due to problems with the castings. The axleguards being  integral with the solebars and sides often results in the axles being out of square when assembled.

 

I'll have to investigate the SR brake van further. I have a feeling that that the height isn't the only error.

[5050]

Given that so many of these older kits were so awkward to build and apparently dimensionally challenged as well, it is a bit of a miracle that so many people continued with the hobby.  I reckon that I would have been so frustrated that I would have started stamp collecting instead!

[Il Grifone]

Given that so many of these older kits were so awkward to build and apparently dimensionally challenged as well, it is a bit of a miracle that so many people continued with the hobby.  I reckon that I would have been so frustrated that I would have started stamp collecting instead!

 

It was all part of the fun!   

 

I tried stamp collecting - too expensive....

[cctransuk]

Given that so many of these older kits were so awkward to build and apparently dimensionally challenged as well, it is a bit of a miracle that so many people continued with the hobby.  I reckon that I would have been so frustrated that I would have started stamp collecting instead!

 

You have to remember what the modelling environment was like in the 1950s and 60s.

 

The only drawings easily available were those published in the model press - and they were mostly of locomotives. We were far less aware of dimensional errors then - nor did we worry too much about them when we were. The expectation was that kits would require fettling and fitting - Airfix, Kitmaster and Peco kits were the exceptions.

 

It is only in recent years, when accurate RTR has become widely available, that an expectation has arisen that EVERYTHING should be spot on accurate, and be capable of being built as easily as an Airfix kit.

 

Many kits that are still currently available have their roots in the 1950s & 60s; K's kits were reckoned to be capable of being built into good models. They still are, if you are prepared to make a modelling contribution to their construction rather than just blindly sticking Part 1 to Part 2 ...........

 

Railway modelling was a lot more challenging - and thereby interesting  - in those days !!!!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[hayfield]

I've found that with K's kits it's often advisable to fit them with internal wheel bearings due to problems with the castings. The axleguards being  integral with the solebars and sides often results in the axles being out of square when assembled.

 

I'll have to investigate the SR brake van further. I have a feeling that that the height isn't the only error.

 

 

You have to remember what the modelling environment was like in the 1950s and 60s.

 

The only drawings easily available were those published in the model press - and they were mostly of locomotives. We were far less aware of dimensional errors then - nor did we worry too much about them when we were. The expectation was that kits would require fettling and fitting - Airfix, Kitmaster and Peco kits were the exceptions.

 

It is only in recent years, when accurate RTR has become widely available, that an expectation has arisen that EVERYTHING should be spot on accurate, and be capable of being built as easily as an Airfix kit.

 

Many kits that are still currently available have their roots in the 1950s & 60s; K's kits were reckoned to be capable of being built into good models. They still are, if you are prepared to make a modelling contribution to their construction rather than just blindly sticking Part 1 to Part 2 ...........

 

Railway modelling was a lot more challenging - and thereby interesting  - in those days !!!!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

Keyser kits do come in for a lot of flack, some deserved others not. To start with they are of 60's/70's design so need bringing up to date, much the same as Southeastern Finecast have done with the Wills range.

 

As for the wagons and coaches these benefit with pin point bearings and modern wheels as a minimum, some are easy to do others like the lowmac and coral A need a different approach.  Quite often the easy solution is to fit brass W Irons and either save the springs and axle boxes from the old castings or buy replacements

[Il Grifone]

Keyser kits do come in for a lot of flack, some deserved others not. To start with they are of 60's/70's design so need bringing up to date, much the same as Southeastern Finecast have done with the Wills range.

 

As for the wagons and coaches these benefit with pin point bearings and modern wheels as a minimum, some are easy to do others like the lowmac and coral A need a different approach.  Quite often the easy solution is to fit brass W Irons and either save the springs and axle boxes from the old castings or buy replacements

 

In most cases it is probably better to replace the spring/axlebox castings. They are often crude and/or the wrong type. (K's were very fond of GWR oil boxes for example - Correct for some GWR wagons, but not for anything else. They could have been fitted as replacements, but probably only one at a time.)

 

The CORAL A has been compromised in its floor to suit 00 gauge (it should be wider between the wheels). The brake levers could do with some attention too.