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100 wagon challenge





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#1 locomad

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 15:06

While going though some old modeller magazine came across an article on locos pulling 100 wagons, I read this years ago and always wanted to try this, on re reading found they were pin point axles which I know that are about 1/3 of the resistance of normal Hornby Dublo  wagons. 

 

So trying a few locos out managed to get up to 40 HD wagons pulled by early 9F Triang Hornby, since each axle has a resistance of about a  gram, in theory that's 80 grams, in practice its more like 100 grams (found a spring balance to measure it)

 

I've not enough pin point axle stock to try for 100 but believe its quite possiblehttps://www.youtube....h?v=MXoCGeHjzEs

 

 

 

 

 

 



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#2 Killian keane

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 19:06

A bowman 234 with all six wicks blazing would certainly stand a sporting chance of achieving such a task, they're powerful locos
I beleive there was something in railway wonders of the world about either an 0 gauge Garrett that regularly pulled over 100 wagons on its home line, I wonder what happened to that model
Edit: here it is, it pulled 3 men, a weight of 39 stone, which is easily more than 100 wagons http://www.railwaywo...-railways2.html

Edited by Killian keane, 11 August 2017 - 19:16 .


#3 Kris

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 19:42

A bowman 234 with all six wicks blazing would certainly stand a sporting chance of achieving such a task, they're powerful locos

 

 

The one that I have will hardly pull the skin off a rice pudding, not that it has run in 20 or more years. 



#4 Killian keane

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 20:20

The one that I have will hardly pull the skin off a rice pudding, not that it has run in 20 or more years.

Thats odd, there could be any of a number of reasons for that, soot build up on the bottom of the boiler, needs new wicks, scored port faces, pistons need repacking etc, but in general they have given stirling service for over 90 years

#5 Kris

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 21:11

Could be any of those. Many years of little or no use won't have helped. 



#6 Il Grifone

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 22:29

There's this thread on haulage power. (5 modern pin-point bearing coaches is a pathetic load IMHO).

 

http://www.rmweb.co....ern-rtr-models/

 

Probably a Dublo Deltic or Co-Bo would have no problem with 100 pin-point wagons. A Dublo N2 or 2-6-4T can handle 20 Dublo wagons (≈ 60 pin point) with little trouble.

 

There was Dublo demonstration layout with a Deltic pulling a large quantity of wagons IIRC. I'll see what I can find.



#7 TheSignalEngineer

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 09:37

When I had a Dublo 3-rail layout my 2-6-4T would easily handle the 11 SD series and 5 Trix Mk1 coaches I had at the time. 



#8 Poor Old Bruce

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 09:48

My tender drive (i.e. traction tyred) Tri-ang Hornby 9F took 118 four-wheel wagons round Mickleover MRG's Duffield layout on a 'play' night. May have taken more if I had taken them with me. Bachmann 3Fs and 4Fs easily manage 40 wagons.



#9 locomad

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 12:10

My tender drive (i.e. traction tyred) Tri-ang Hornby 9F took 118 four-wheel wagons round Mickleover MRG's Duffield layout on a 'play' night. May have taken more if I had taken them with me. Bachmann 3Fs and 4Fs easily manage 40 wagons.



I can expect it could take more, unfortunately I've not got that number of the same type, the other factor is the type of wagon, pin point axle or the old type Hornby Dublo.

There's also a difference in the Triang Hornby tender drive locos, the earlier type had traction tyres on all driving wheels and was clear (neopine?) while later type just one side and rubber.

The Hornby double deltic has been meantioned as an excellent hauler, it is unfortunately mine has a habit of shedding tyres once a large load is applied, I've tried heat shrink tyres with mixed results, stays on but slips, now looking into the same type as the early Triang Hornby 9f.

I've also found a 70's copy of the Model Railway Constructor which I think was the only investigation done in the model press of the haulage capacity of them and past OO locos it used a gram pull method, I've noticed very similar results. Interesting it was noticed that with triang chassis once weight is added they almost match Hornby Dublo

#10 DavidCBroad

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 13:02

I find the early Triang Hornby 9F / Evening Star with permanently coupled 6 traction tyre tender is a very powerful beast, the later 2 traction tyre detachable tender type only about 60% as good and the current Railroad loco drive only about 30% as good.

I find loading the current RTR with strips of Lead Flashing and lots of running in improves the traction,  doubling it in the case of te 42XX, ROD etc, while Pacifics are more sure footed than 4-6-0s as the weight is more evenly distributed, some 4-6-0s actually pull less if you weight the smokebox without adding weight at the back as the weight is all on the leading drivers. Tender drawbars need to be arranged to be neutral or  lift the tender when pulling not lift the rear of the loco, the Hornby Dublo Duchess being a text book example of how not to do it.

We were playing the other evening and had a Wrenn 8F pulling 40 Hornby Dublo metal chassis open wagons which must be equal to 100 modern all plastic pin point wagons up 12 feet or so of 1 in 100 which was supposed to be level.    Didn't try the 9F, but both a Farish 81XX on Triang Chassis and a Wills 61XX beat the 8F with the Wills pulling 53 at one stage.

We filmed the Hattons 14XX on over 35 Hornby Dublo wagons, sort of cheated by using the 61XX as banker, must put it on YouTube!



#11 Dunsignalling

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 13:24

While going though some old modeller magazine came across an article on locos pulling 100 wagons, I read this years ago and always wanted to try this, on re reading found they were pin point axles which I know that are about 1/3 of the resistance of normal Hornby Dublo  wagons. 

 

So trying a few locos out managed to get up to 40 HD wagons pulled by early 9F Triang Hornby, since each axle has a resistance of about a  gram, in theory that's 80 grams, in practice its more like 100 grams (found a spring balance to measure it)

 

I've not enough pin point axle stock to try for 100 but believe its quite possiblehttps://www.youtube....h?v=MXoCGeHjzEs

Should be a piece of cake with pin-point stock. However, traction tyres are cheating IMHO.

 

My well-run-in Bachmann 9F has started 45 modern r-t-r wagons on a 1-in-50 gradient without slipping, but I didn't have enough wagons or enough flat track to go for any records. 

 

Diesel outline locos would walk it. I tried (on a bigger layout) a Heljan 47, adding more and more coaches - until it reached 30, when it pulled the coupling out of the NEM pocket! The biggest problem was coaches near the front of the train persistently derailing on curves because of the weight of those behind them. Bachmann Mk1s are getting on for 4 times the weight of most wagons.

 

In N gauge, one of the layouts at Pecorama used to regularly feature a 100 wagon train, hauled (I think) by one of the Jubilees they used to sell (made by Rivarossi IIRC) - see earlier comment about traction tyres. :triniti:

 

John


Edited by Dunsignalling, 12 August 2017 - 13:44 .


#12 asmay2002

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 13:36

Quote 'Guinness World Records 2005'

'The longest model train was 70.2m [230ft 3in] in length and consisted of 650 (bogie) wagons hauled by four locomotives.
It was run by the Arid Australia model railway group in Perth, Western Australia, on 3 June 1996.
The train was built in the HO scale, meaning it was the equivalent of a full-scale train measuring 6.11 km [3.8 miles]'



#13 Nearholmer

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 17:22

Didn't HD specialise in using their locos to pull embarrassed-looking female members of the office staff along, for the benefit of press-release photos?

K
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#14 Golden Fleece 30

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 18:34

While going though some old modeller magazine came across an article on locos pulling 100 wagons, I read this years ago and always wanted to try this, on re reading found they were pin point axles which I know that are about 1/3 of the resistance of normal Hornby Dublo  wagons. 

 

So trying a few locos out managed to get up to 40 HD wagons pulled by early 9F Triang Hornby, since each axle has a resistance of about a  gram, in theory that's 80 grams, in practice its more like 100 grams (found a spring balance to measure it)

 

I've not enough pin point axle stock to try for 100 but believe its quite possiblehttps://www.youtube....h?v=MXoCGeHjzEs

This is not a true reflection in my eyes as the 9F has rubber tyres which is cheating.

 

Here is a Dublo unmodified Dorchester with 18 coaches, most of which are heavy Exleys with real glass windows, then, a Dublo Garratt (twin 5-pole 1/2" motors) pulling 60 mainly Dublo wagons some of which are bogie and 6 wheel vans.

 

 

 

Garry



#15 Dagworth

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 19:27

Quote 'Guinness World Records 2005'

'The longest model train was 70.2m [230ft 3in] in length and consisted of 650 (bogie) wagons hauled by four locomotives.
It was run by the Arid Australia model railway group in Perth, Western Australia, on 3 June 1996.
The train was built in the HO scale, meaning it was the equivalent of a full-scale train measuring 6.11 km [3.8 miles]'


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#16 Il Grifone

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 20:04

Didn't HD specialise in using their locos to pull embarrassed-looking female members of the office staff along, for the benefit of press-release photos?

K

 

It required three of them IIRC

 

Tri-ang will pull less than Dublo though lack of weight. Weighted equally they are about similar. Traction tyres help considerably by reducing slipping, (no more cheating than the prototype using sand IMHO), which sets the limit for most Dublo and Tri-ang. Of course the locomotive should be able to slip rather than stall and possibly burn out the motor.

 

Somewhere on the 'net, there is a video of a Dublo Duchess wearing a lead coat and hauling 35 Dublo coaches, which would be roughly equivalent to 200 pin point wagons (or maybe more as Dublo coaches are heavy as well as not very free running).

No more cheating than using sand IMHO


Edited by Il Grifone, 12 August 2017 - 20:13 .


#17 detheridge

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 20:54


 

Somewhere on the 'net, there is a video of a Dublo Duchess wearing a lead coat and hauling 35 Dublo coaches, which would be roughly equivalent to 200 pin point wagons (or maybe more as Dublo coaches are heavy as well as not very free running).

No more cheating than using sand IMHO

 It's here:

 

 

Ronald Dodd (HD 3 rail guru) triumphs again!  :-)

 

As an aside, does this means that if you fill an HD boiler with lead or equivalent - there's loadsa space in front of the vertical motor - you could get similar performance without even changing the original stock wheels to pinpoints?

 

David.


Edited by detheridge, 12 August 2017 - 21:01 .


#18 Porcy Mane

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 21:42

Wanna count em.

 

 

P


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#19 37114

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 21:49

Should be a piece of cake with pin-point stock. However, traction tyres are cheating IMHO.

My well-run-in Bachmann 9F has started 45 modern r-t-r wagons on a 1-in-50 gradient without slipping, but I didn't have enough wagons or enough flat track to go for any records.

Diesel outline locos would walk it. I tried (on a bigger layout) a Heljan 47, adding more and more coaches - until it reached 30, when it pulled the coupling out of the NEM pocket! The biggest problem was coaches near the front of the train persistently derailing on curves because of the weight of those behind them. Bachmann Mk1s are getting on for 4 times the weight of most wagons.

In N gauge, one of the layouts at Pecorama used to regularly feature a 100 wagon train, hauled (I think) by one of the Jubilees they used to sell (made by Rivarossi IIRC) - see earlier comment about traction tyres. :triniti:

John


We managed to get 85 Bachmann Mk1s behind a Bachmann 47 some years ago on Highbridge Road at a show. We then added another class 47 and got up to 123 before we ran out of space on the layout and we started to get derailments on the curves....

#20 Dunsignalling

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 22:37

It required three of them IIRC

 

Tri-ang will pull less than Dublo though lack of weight. Weighted equally they are about similar. Traction tyres help considerably by reducing slipping, (no more cheating than the prototype using sand IMHO), which sets the limit for most Dublo and Tri-ang. Of course the locomotive should be able to slip rather than stall and possibly burn out the motor.

 

Somewhere on the 'net, there is a video of a Dublo Duchess wearing a lead coat and hauling 35 Dublo coaches, which would be roughly equivalent to 200 pin point wagons (or maybe more as Dublo coaches are heavy as well as not very free running).

No more cheating than using sand IMHO

I'd think being about 250% out of gauge ought to be enough to disqualify it................

 

John



#21 Andy Hayter

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 22:56

I am sure that Marklin have coupled a hundred or so of their H0 model locos to haul an example of the real thing but I cannot find  link just now.  Now that is real haulage power.


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#22 Golden Fleece 30

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 22:59

I am sure that Marklin have coupled a hundred or so of their H0 model locos to haul an example of the real thing but I cannot find link just now. Now that is real haulage power.


But don't Marklin cheat on their steam locos by putting tyres on the driving wheels, as did Trix lol?

Garry

#23 locomad

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 23:36

The biggest problem was coaches near the front of the train persistently derailing on curves because of the weight of those behind them. Bachmann Mk1s are getting on for 4 times the weight of most wagons.
 

 
John


This is biggest problem I face, previous layout had 24" radius curves and I was lucky to get about 30 Hornby-dublo wagons round until they caved in on themselves, clearly there is some mathematical formula which takes into account factors like weight, resistance, of wagons plus camber, radius of curve etc. Some reason bogie stock such as coaches are more prone to derail.

Clearly pin point axles would help here is the dilemma, most of my pin point axle stock tend to also be very light, hence more likely to cave in on the curves, fact is Hornby Dublo stock stays on the track. What's more you can reverse such stock, try that with tension lock coupling light weight stock.

Still very interesting thread, about time that Australian record was broken, I think it's cheating a bit using 4 locos, I want to see what an off the shelf proprietary single locomotive in either HO or OO can do

As for rubber tyres, that was what was fitted by the manufacturer Triang Hornby some 47 years ago, the 9f evening star was I consider one of the best ever made in terms of pulling power and smooth running. It still has the original tyres on

#24 Killian keane

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 00:11

This is biggest problem I face, previous layout had 24" radius curves and I was lucky to get about 30 Hornby-dublo wagons round until they caved in on themselves, clearly there is some mathematical formula which takes into account factors like weight, resistance, of wagons plus camber, radius of curve etc. Some reason bogie stock such as coaches are more prone to derail.

Clearly pin point axles would help here is the dilemma, most of my pin point axle stock tend to also be very light, hence more likely to cave in on the curves, fact is Hornby Dublo stock stays on the track. What's more you can reverse such stock, try that with tension lock coupling light weight stock.

Still very interesting thread, about time that Australian record was broken, I think it's cheating a bit using 4 locos, I want to see what an off the shelf proprietary single locomotive in either HO or OO can do

As for rubber tyres, that was what was fitted by the manufacturer Triang Hornby some 47 years ago, the 9f evening star was I consider one of the best ever made in terms of pulling power and smooth running. It still has the original tyres on

I think youre bang on the money there, it must be to do with angle of the net vector of the resistance of the train behind any given vehicle in the train in relation to the vector of the power of the locomotive pulling the train, if my reasoning is correct, you should be able to halve this effect by putting the loco in the middle of the train, of course that may introduce new problems, I'll get back to this with a diagram in due course

Edited by Killian keane, 13 August 2017 - 00:16 .

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#25 Dagworth

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 02:10

 

this was an out-of-the-box Roco loco :)

 

Andi









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