Do not. ... while the train is in the station - no more

[D854_Tiger]

Mostly the cost for full retention tanks and finding space to fit them on MK1/2 stock. Apparently there is work afoot to trialling "bio-reactor" systems for heritage stock, which still discharges "gray-water" waste which is acceptable to discharge which then only need smaller retention tanks for the solids. These should cost a lot less to fit, and wouldn't need expensive discharge equipment at depots.

 

Perhaps they could tie in GPS with the flush control then define safe ******** zones.

 

Excluding stations obviously but including say those areas where the locals use the railway as the local rubbish tip, a sort of just deserts really.

 

Then think of the wildlife, natural manure could be supporting an entire eco-structure.

[The Johnster]

Retention tanks solve one problem but potentially replace it with another, the need for a rigorous schedule of emptying and flushing through.  If this is missed for any reason, or if there is particularly heavy demand (say after a sporting event) and the enclosed system is unable to cope with the load, matters can become very unpleasant indeed in a way which affects the entire train and can become apparent very quickly, particularly in warm weather.

 

We used to use another little rhyme; 'would passengers please refrain/ from flushing toilets on the train/ cos workmen working underneath/ are apt to get it in the teeth'.

 

I wonder if Stationmaster remembers the original arrangement on HSTs which simply decanted directly on to the track but in which the outlet pipes were angled to avoid some brake pipery under the coach.  Flushing one which was facing forward in the Severn Tunnel (or the single track Patchway tunnel in some versions of the story) where the opposing pressure was sufficient to blast the contents back up the pipe at some velocity led to an elderly lady having a very unpleasant experience which was not at all in line with the modern image the railway was trying to project (perhaps 'project' is a poor choice of words here).

 

A modification in which the outlet pipes were turned sideways was rapidly deployed...

[D854_Tiger]

Retention tanks solve one problem but potentially replace it with another, the need for a rigorous schedule of emptying and flushing through.  If this is missed for any reason, or if there is particularly heavy demand (say after a sporting event) and the enclosed system is unable to cope with the load, matters can become very unpleasant indeed in a way which affects the entire train and can become apparent very quickly, particularly in warm weather.

 

We used to use another little rhyme; 'would passengers please refrain/ from flushing toilets on the train/ cos workmen working underneath/ are apt to get it in the teeth'.

 

I wonder if Stationmaster remembers the original arrangement on HSTs which simply decanted directly on to the track but in which the outlet pipes were angled to avoid some brake pipery under the coach.  Flushing one which was facing forward in the Severn Tunnel (or the single track Patchway tunnel in some versions of the story) where the opposing pressure was sufficient to blast the contents back up the pipe at some velocity led to an elderly lady having a very unpleasant experience which was not at all in line with the modern image the railway was trying to project (perhaps 'project' is a poor choice of words here).

 

A modification in which the outlet pipes were turned sideways was rapidly deployed...

 

 

[Christopher125]

I wasn't aware you could walk between adjoining carriages on the Ffestiniog, that's always been my assumption on my numerous visits there.

IIRC all the modern F&WHR carriages have corridor connections, it allows them to offer a buffet/trolley service.

Edited October 12, 2017 by Christopher125

[royaloak]

Network Rail should, some years ago, have advised Train Operators that the practice of dumping human waste from their trains onto the infrastructure would no longer be acceptable from a certain date, say 10 or perhaps 15 years ahead, to give the Operators plenty of time to replace or modify their fleets. This is an Operator's responsibility, not Network Rail's.

Why would an operator with a seven or ten year franchise care about spending money to comply with a rule which wont come into force until after the franchise has been re-let?

 

It isnt the TOCs problem anyway because they lease nearly all the stock which makes it the leasing companies problem.

Edited October 13, 2017 by royaloak

[david.hill64]

Why would an operator with a seven or ten year franchise care about spending money to comply with a rule which wont come into force until after the franchise has been re-let?

 

It isnt the TOCs problem anyway because they lease nearly all the stock which makes it the leasing companies problem.

When I worked in a ROSCO the issue of 'Mandatory Modifications' was a source of concern, because we would have to pick up the bill and the risks were unknown.

[black and decker boy]

Why would an operator with a seven or ten year franchise care about spending money to comply with a rule which wont come into force until after the franchise has been re-let?

 

It isnt the TOCs problem anyway because they lease nearly all the stock which makes it the leasing companies problem.

Well not quite. Any mods will increase the lease cost and so need TOC and DfT sign off.

 

The TOC also needs to have the infrastructure in place at drpots and stabling points to empty CET tanks and had to ensure diagrams take tank capacity into account.

[caradoc]

Count yourselves lucky that trains will actually have toilets - the junk TfL will drop on us in a few years time on GWML local trains east of Reading will wind the clock back 60 years to the era of stopping trains with bench seats and no toilets (but at least they had luggage racks).  Apparently TfL will require passengers to be fitted with their own retention tanks.

 

Perhaps, with an ageing but still mobile population, Crossrail will eventually include 'toilet stops' at suitable locations in their schedules ?

[caradoc]

Why would an operator with a seven or ten year franchise care about spending money to comply with a rule which wont come into force until after the franchise has been re-let?

 

It isnt the TOCs problem anyway because they lease nearly all the stock which makes it the leasing companies problem.

 

In which case the deadline would still be known and any bidder for the next franchise would have to include this in their plans; If (as in many cases) they were already an existing franchise holder, they would have been able to demonstrate their willingness and ability to comply. And, it certainly is the operator's problem if the stock they use ends up banned from the infrastructure ! The South West Trains/Railway change of franchise has shown that large scale fleet replacement is possible.

[Merfyn Jones]

IIRC all the modern F&WHR carriages have corridor connections, it allows them to offer a buffet/trolley service.

 

Yes, introduced from 1964 with the first toilet shortly after .

[whart57]

Of course the burning question now is whether Bachmann and Hornby will be ensuring these crap tanks are fitted to their non-historical coach offerings ...................

[HillsideDepot]

Retention tanks solve one problem but potentially replace it with another, the need for a rigorous schedule of emptying and flushing through.  If this is missed for any reason,

 

Indeed. When that Turbo had an excursion off the tracks at Paddington and into a OHLE mast the damaged end went off to works for repair while the other car(s?) was simply parked up. When the cars were reunited and put back into service they discovered that the contents of the retention tank had set solid!

[Boris]

Actually for mk1 operators this isn't compulsory, not going into too many details but they've been asked to sign up to a charter rather than a ban.  Some mk1 operators lock toilets at stations with extended dwell times, and this may likely say but I believe at least 1 operator of heritage stock has refused to sign up.

[D854_Tiger]

Actually for mk1 operators this isn't compulsory, not going into too many details but they've been asked to sign up to a charter rather than a ban.  Some mk1 operators lock toilets at stations with extended dwell times, and this may likely say but I believe at least 1 operator of heritage stock has refused to sign up.

 

I guess the upmarket charters (Northern Belle, Orient Express) also dump their upmarket proverbial on the tracks, though perhaps it smells nicer.

 

Bit tricky explaining to your upmarket clients who have probably parted with a small fortune that no you can't use the toilet.

[The Johnster]

Those sort of people have servants to do it for them, don't they?

[Ronnie MB]

Someone earlier in the thread mentioned a little ditty on this subject and here is a version of it:

[Ian Smeeton]

Nice to hear, but I am sure that there was a Flanders & Swann version which was even less clean.

 

Definitely worried about Sherman's horse, too (last verse)

 

Regards

 

Ian

[colin penfold]

Retention toilets have to be drained. Certainly on road coaches drain cocks can be left open by unscrupulous operators thereby saving on draining costs and creating a similar effect to direct discharge. Don't ask me how I know as I will have to shoot one of us, and I'm nearer.

[jonny777]

Those sort of people have servants to do it for them, don't they?

 

 

 

Those who used the royal train during overnight stops certainly Had folk to take it away for them. 

 

Large 'trays' were positioned precisely under each end of the various carriages, and removed the next morning I gather. Not the most glamorous of occupations. 

[Ronnie MB]

Ian Smeeton: In other versions, Washington was very firm and Lincoln didn’t even squirm! Meanwhile, I don’t think you are recalling Flanders and Swann themselves but Armstrong and Miller parodying them thus:

[The Stationmaster]

Perhaps they could reinstall track water troughs and discharge toilet tanks directly into the troughs, at speeds below 75 mph anyway.  Then divert sludge into trackside septic systems before recycling into clear water for steam locomotives?  The new circle of life....

 

Such things were known as 'track pans' - and were a  feature of various vehicles in the 'Royal train' fleet.  But they had to be hosed out and reloaded beneath the vehicles before the train left a stabling point.

[Rivercider]

In Weston-super-Mare where the 2017 tomato crop is coming along nicely some recent fertilization is apparent

Weston-super-Mare 14/10/2017

[jonny777]

In Weston-super-Mare where the 2017 tomato crop is coming along nicely some recent fertilization is apparent

IMG_8361 a.jpg

Weston-super-Mare 14/10/2017

 

 

If the tomatoes ripen, I wonder if anyone would eat them?

 

I remember shocking my children by telling them I used the waste water from the fish tank (on partial water changes) to feed the tomato plants; and so the home grown tomatoes they had just eaten were grown on fish poo. 

[Squirrel]

 

Presumably heritage lines will continue to be allowed to **** on the tracks in the name of authenticity, though four or five trains each way, on a forty minute journey every weekend, can't generate too much of a problem surely.

Yes it can. You need only one carefully placed deposit. We had exactly that. A dump just where the train had stopped, and where a loco had to be coupled up, and I had to do it. This was about 50 yards from the station toilet too. What an inconsiderate a**e.

[royaloak]

Retention toilets have to be drained. Certainly on road coaches drain cocks can be left open by unscrupulous operators thereby saving on draining costs and creating a similar effect to direct discharge. Don't ask me how I know as I will have to shoot one of us, and I'm nearer.

Our retention tanks are emptied by suction, not a valve on the bottom of the tank.

 

Mark 4s tend to overflow when full so if you are on a platform and see one approaching with a mist emanating from the underside of the carriages its best to turn your back.

 

Another thing to remember is at speed the waste will hit the track and atomise, it will then head off in all directions coating everything it contacts including the door handles, handrails etc.