Check rails on outdoor RTL track

[Mike Storey]

Greetings

 

I feel the need to add check rails to some parts of my garden railway track, which is mostly Peco and Tenmille plastic sleepered 32mm NG gauge track, some pre-formed, the rest from kits, before I weather it and add ballast.

 

I have found supplies of Code 200 rail chairs, some of which are sprued and some not. But all of which would cause a greater than scale gap from the running rail.

 

There is a double chair available for such circumstances, supplied primarily for point construction, but this is no use for pre-formed (in effect "set track") radii which I am using for the tightest curves. I have tried on previous layouts, bending rail to these radii (under 36") as part of kit based construction, but the results have not been great in terms of smoothness of running live steam, causing jerking where the bending has not been an entirely constant radius. So I am cheating this time.

 

My question is - how have any of you who have done this overcome the joint issues of:

 

a) finding the right bonding agent for plastic chairs to plastic sleepers (in 32mm, 45mm, 0 gauge or any other) in an outdoor environment?

 

b) ensuring a believable gap between running rail and check rail?

 

Many thanks for any help.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Mike Storey

[Gordon H]

Suggest you get in touch with Cliff Barker: http://www.cliffbarker.talktalk.net/Gauge1FineandStandardTrack.html

He has a range of chairs for Code 200 and (I believe) can supply a suitable solvent for fixing them in position.

[Nearholmer]

Or, buy or borrow a good-quality rail-bender.

 

They are not cheap, though. We are fortunate enough where I live to have one kind individual who has one, and is prepared to loan it to trusted persons.

[Mike Storey]

Suggest you get in touch with Cliff Barker: http://www.cliffbarker.talktalk.net/Gauge1FineandStandardTrack.html

He has a range of chairs for Code 200 and (I believe) can supply a suitable solvent for fixing them in position.

 

Many thanks Gordon - his range looks promising, given the narrow width of one of his chair products. Interesting that Code 200 is the primary design template for G1 BH (even though he is promoting Code 180 as fine scale). I will contact him for suggestions.

 

Thanks again.

[Mike Storey]

Or, buy or borrow a good-quality rail-bender.

 

They are not cheap, though. We are fortunate enough where I live to have one kind individual who has one, and is prepared to loan it to trusted persons.

 

Thanks Kevin, but I own and have used one of those for many, many years, (I think I bought it from Tenmille on an exhibition stand) as well as steel templates to check my work. What those templates keep telling me is that rail bending on Code 200 rail, below around 48" radius, is a black art, one that I have clearly not mastered, hence my resort to set track for the two (critical) curves which cannot achieve that minimum.

 

In 16mm/NG, the rustic look is favoured, including making your curves look like a collection of short straights. In reality, a live steamer in that scale, does not like that, does not like it at all.

 

If I were your friend, however much I liked you, I would never lend out my rail bender. I did this only once, and had to resort to some very unholy language to get it back again. I had found a most unlikely situation - someone who was even slower at track laying than I was.....

[Nearholmer]

That made me chuckle.

 

Try contacting Ron Fraser of Maldon Track. He makes the track that I use on my 0 gauge, which uses Peco Code 200 NS rail, and he bends it down to well below R48, very dependably. He makes and sells R27 three-rail 'set-track' with individual (not webbed) sleepers for instance, which is very demanding of accurate radii.

 

He is a very helpful chap, and he would probably be willing to pass on a few tips, given that you wouldn't be a competitor. I have been in his workshop, but I can't for the life of me recall what type of rail-bender he uses; he may well have made his own.

[Mike Storey]

That made me chuckle.

 

Try contacting Ron Fraser of Maldon Track. He makes the track that I use on my 0 gauge, which uses Peco Code 200 NS rail, and he bends it down to well below R48, very dependably. He makes and sells R27 three-rail 'set-track' with individual (not webbed) sleepers for instance, which is very demanding of accurate radii.

 

He is a very helpful chap, and he would probably be willing to pass on a few tips, given that you wouldn't be a competitor. I have been in his workshop, but I can't for the life of me recall what type of rail-bender he uses; he may well have made his own.

 

Many thanks Kevin, but I had a quick look at his website and this very ominous warning appears:

 

We do not supply kits to make curves because profile rail does not bend successfully as the tighter the curve the more the rail twists in a counter-wise direction. I would advise that most curves should be formed by the correct jig and fixtures as it is not worth trying to bend under 60” radius by yourself.

 

Now he tells me!!...............

[Nearholmer]

Interesting.

 

He must use magic pixie dust in his workshop then, because the curves he makes display no rail-twist.

 

When I was a trainee, one of the first workshop 'projects' I got given was to make a jig/bender for forming something (can't recall what) from steel strip about an inch by a quarter, requiring it to bend on the wide axis, ........ it looked simple, but it was quite a challenge for a newbie to design a 'bender' that didn't put a horrible twist into it!

[Happy Hippo]

If you want to stick plastic chairs to plastic sleepers, even in the garden, I have found that butanol works well.

 

If you really want to be safe then filing off the bolt head off the chair and then pinning through with a brass pin prevent's 'shear'.

 

Most of my check rails were silver soldered to brass plates, then clamped in place using the appropriate slip gauges and soft soldered to the running rails.

 

Alternatively you could do this, and with careful placement of the brass strip, use the slip gauges and then pin them to the sleepers.  cosmetic chairs could then be added as necessary. 

 

These days I use flat bottomed rail. wooden sleepers and ME 1/2" dog spikes (which are excellent).

 

As mentioned above, Cliff Barker products are excellent, I have about 5 yards of bullhead track,  laid with Cliff's stainless rail, resting in G3 Society white metal chairs. 

 

Remember that the narrow gauge fraternity tend to favour 'coarse scale' wheel standards and there is a slight difference between the flangeway clearances for G1 (45mm) and Gauge 0 (32mm) track.  I believe the Tenmille check rail chairs are for the wider parentage. 

 

I never had any problem bending Code 250 flat bottomed nickel silver rail by hand, but now I think about it, 4 foot radius was about the minimum.

Edited November 23, 2017 by Happy Hippo

[Mike Storey]

If you want to stick plastic chairs to plastic sleepers, even in the garden, I have found that butanol works well.

 

If you really want to be safe then filing off the bolt head off the chair and then pinning through with a brass pin prevent's 'shear'.

 

Most of my check rails were silver soldered to brass plates, then clamped in place using the appropriate slip gauges and soft soldered to the running rails.

 

Alternatively you could do this, and with careful placement of the brass strip, use the slip gauges and then pin them to the sleepers.  cosmetic chairs could then be added as necessary. 

 

These days I use flat bottomed rail. wooden sleepers and ME 1/2" dog spikes (which are excellent).

 

As mentioned above, Cliff Barker products are excellent, I have about 5 yards of bullhead track,  laid with Cliff's stainless rail, resting in G3 Society white metal chairs. 

 

Remember that the narrow gauge fraternity tend to favour 'coarse scale' wheel standards and there is a slight difference between the flangeway clearances for G1 (45mm) and Gauge 0 (32mm) track.  I believe the Tenmille check rail chairs are for the wider parentage. 

 

I never had any problem bending Code 250 flat bottomed nickel silver rail by hand, but now I think about it, 4 foot radius was about the minimum.

 

Many thanks. Cliff's chairs look narrow enough to do the job without lifting the existing rails.

 

I have looked up Butanol following your post, but cannot seem to find anyone who sells it in less than industrial quantities. How did you get yours? Would Acetone be a suitable alternative, do you think? That is widely available here, in supermarkets even, and has come up in my research as another type of solvent adhesive as one of its uses. 

[Gordon H]

Many thanks. Cliff's chairs look narrow enough to do the job without lifting the existing rails.

 

I have looked up Butanol following your post, but cannot seem to find anyone who sells it in less than industrial quantities. How did you get yours? Would Acetone be a suitable alternative, do you think? That is widely available here, in supermarkets even, and has come up in my research as another type of solvent adhesive as one of its uses. 

 

Suggest you as Cliff about the best solvent to use and whether he can supply any, as he uses it for his ready to run pointwork range.

[44690]

If I recall correctly Butanol is sold as Plastic Weld. However it is only available in the UK.

 

Regards,

 

Ian

[Flying Pig]

From w

If you want to stick plastic chairs to plastic sleepers, even in the garden, I have found that butanol works well.

 

Do you mean butanone, also known as methyl ethyl ketone or MEK? That's available quite widely in the UK at least.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...I feel the need to add check rails to some parts of my garden railway track...

 I would offer the observation that in my experience with OO (so much smaller scale/lighter vehicles it is true) it was the small check rails  and crossings of points that seemed unerringly to intercept bird droppings, and would trap small pieces of plant material very regularly; with derailments in consequence. No amount of pre-operation inspection reliably detected the fouling material. (End result, only had the bare minimum number of points on the outdoor run.)

 

Unless you definitely know this isn't a problem, I would suggest a test section, before embarking on the trouble of a large check rail installation.

[Mike Storey]

If I recall correctly Butanol is sold as Plastic Weld. However it is only available in the UK.

 

Regards,

 

Ian

 

Thanks Ian - having looked up the technicals on that, it may well be the one that will work. I have found an e-bay site that will get it to France! (somehow....).

[Mike Storey]

 I would offer the observation that in my experience with OO (so much smaller scale/lighter vehicles it is true) it was the small check rails  and crossings of points that seemed unerringly to intercept bird droppings, and would trap small pieces of plant material very regularly; with derailments in consequence. No amount of pre-operation inspection reliably detected the fouling material. (End result, only had the bare minimum number of points on the outdoor run.)

 

Unless you definitely know this isn't a problem, I would suggest a test section, before embarking on the trouble of a large check rail installation.

 

A very good point - thank you - but the sheer weight and grunt of the average 16mmNG loco has never experienced this problem with plant or bird detritus, unless propelling. It is loose stones from ballast or neighbouring flower beds that can sometimes cause such a problem, and a first run with my heaviest diesel, on each running session, identifies those issues pretty quickly. I have the benefit that a quick bit of work with an old screwdriver gets rid of the problem, which in your finer scale is much more difficult.

[Nearholmer]

A further thought: how tight are the curves, and do you really need check rails?

 

My small outdoor line has LGB track, of R48, not a check rail in sight, and I don't experience the sort of problems that checkrails are used to prevent. My locos are Roundhouse, and an old Locobox machine, all of which have 'coarse-0' wheel standards, and the track is very poorly plonked down (to say it is 'laid' would be an exageration), with some terribly doglegged joints, nasty reverse curves etc.

 

On one previous line, I had unchecked R24, which slowed the steam locos down due to flange friction, but again, no derailments resulted.

 

If I have a derailment, it's usually with stones in pointwork, because of failure to trim-back the plants far enough, or because the children have deliberately put Playmobil people on the track to get run over.

Edited November 24, 2017 by Nearholmer

[Happy Hippo]

Many thanks. Cliff's chairs look narrow enough to do the job without lifting the existing rails.

 

I have looked up Butanol following your post, but cannot seem to find anyone who sells it in less than industrial quantities. How did you get yours? Would Acetone be a suitable alternative, do you think? That is widely available here, in supermarkets even, and has come up in my research as another type of solvent adhesive as one of its uses. 

I used to buy my Butanol from C&L, though the current adhesive I'm using is called Plastic Weld and came from Squires Models and Craft Tools.

[Mike Storey]

A further thought: how tight are the curves, and do you really need check rails?

 

My small outdoor line has LGB track, of R48, not a check rail in sight, and I don't experience the sort of problems that checkrails are used to prevent. My locos are Roundhouse, and an old Locobox machine, all of which have 'coarse-0' wheel standards, and the track is very poorly plonked down (to say it is 'laid' would be an exageration), with some terribly doglegged joints, nasty reverse curves etc.

 

On one previous line, I had unchecked R24, which slowed the steam locos down due to flange friction, but again, no derailments resulted.

 

If I have a derailment, it's usually with stones in pointwork, because of failure to trim-back the plants far enough, or because the children have deliberately put Playmobil people on the track to get run over.

 

Oh no, they are not needed for running, only for aesthetics! To be sure, on my previous 16mm/ft, 32mm gauge lines, some of my track laying was quite appalling, especially on tighter curves, which space necessitated, as I tried to do it all with flexi-track from Tenmille and Peco, and a few short lengths of handbuilt, using a rail bender, which I naively thought would give me perfection. But nothing ever derailed on them, as 16mm flanges are very forgiving. What happened instead was that manual steam locos would struggle around them, often stalling until pressure built up enough (or the great finger of the sky) to overcome resistance, and even radio controlled locos would need a less-than-realistic rev up. Which is why I am now cheating with set track, and initial trials (plus the advice of Cliff's website above) show that decision to be a good one.

 

But the check rails are purely cosmetic, where such curves would almost certainly have had them in reality. But my attempts with a test section to exterior superglue some cut down Peco chairs ended in failure at the first pass. Hence this thread, and the suggestion of Plastic Weld is very gratefully received.

 

With 00 and perhaps 0 and N gauge layouts, we would, if interpreting reality, have check rails on almost every curve, but we suspend disbelief for good reason. In a garden, where tight curves are much rarer, I am just trying to add a bit of verisimilitude (copyright T.Gorton)!

[Gordon H]

I spoke to Cliff yesterday and he does supply the solvents to go with his range of track parts.