GreenGiraffe22 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 Hello all, So, I'm thinking about creating some sort of Troop / Ambulance train combining the restaurant carriage and open third Hornby are releasing this year with the Return from Dunkirk carriage set, I'm not overly fussed about how prototypical the carriage formation would be, my question is livery. I've done some Googling, and most WW2 ambulance carriages I've found photos of seem to have a small red cross square in the middle of either side of the carriages between the windows, and one on the roof, although I could mostly only find GWR examples, was it the same in the South? And would they need the words "Ambulance Car" written on? Thanks in advance =] Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastglosmog Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 (edited) I have seen some video of the conversion of LMS carriages to an ambulance train by the Southern at Eastleigh in early 1940 (sorry, don't have the copyright, so can't post here). They have a large red cross on the roof (which was otherwise white), slightly off center, and one red cross of window height on each side. Position of the cross on the side seams to vary from coach to coach, some being in the center and others towards one end. No labeling that I could see other than the number on the sides and end. Sides were painted some dark colour - being black and white picture, not sure what though. I would imagine the paint scheme would be fairly standard whoever did the conversion. Edited January 19, 2018 by eastglosmog Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurenceb Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 As I understand it markings on ambulance trains were set by the Geneva conventions andthus would be pretty standard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted February 15, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 15, 2018 Is the ambulance coach in the NRM a Maunsell? Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted February 15, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 15, 2018 (edited) Is the ambulance coach in the NRM a Maunsell? Phil Hope not. AFAIK it's a WW1-style vehicle converted from a coach originally constructed in 1907. John Edited February 15, 2018 by Dunsignalling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 Hope not. AFAIK it's a WW1-style vehicle converted from a coach originally constructed in 1907. John Is the ambulance coach in the NRM a Maunsell? Phil It's a former L.S.W.R Restaurant Car - somewhat pre-Maunsell ! .............. the only Maunsell Ambulance Cars were four former 'Nondescript' ( i.e. Unclassed ) Brakes - though they were converted well after the war ( Two actually survived long enough to receive blue & grey livery ) and a number of Gangwayed Luggage Vans which WERE formed into wartime Ambulance Trains ( the Triang model is an approximation of one of these but should have droplights in the centre doors for the Ambulance Car versions ). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 (edited) Be careful with the word ‘Maunsell’ when describing coaches in this context: he was CME for the SECR from 1913, and oversaw the design and build of coaches for them, and I think he may have overseen ambulance train conversions during WW1 ........ so, a WW1 Maunsell ambulance train might be prototypical! “The SE&CR drew up plans for a proposed Ambulance train for the Admiralty. The train, of eleven vehicles, was designed to carry 102 cots using bogie brake coaches to provide space for lying cases in the luggage area and sitting cases in the seated compartments. It appears that this train was not built but in the early part of the war the railway did provide two trains of nine non-corridor brake thirds and two brake vans each. These were put together very quickly and were operational in August of 1914. In the absence of any photographs of the trains or evidence of medical treatment facilities these were probably used for casualty evacuation from port to hospital. The trains were withdrawn in September and December of 1914 when the purpose designed ambulance trains came into service.” Edited February 15, 2018 by Nearholmer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted February 15, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 15, 2018 (edited) Be careful with the word ‘Maunsell’ when describing coaches in this context: he was CME for the SECR from 1913, and oversaw the design and build of coaches for them, and I think he may have overseen ambulance train conversions during WW1 ........ so, a WW1 Maunsell ambulance train might be prototypical! “The SE&CR drew up plans for a proposed Ambulance train for the Admiralty. The train, of eleven vehicles, was designed to carry 102 cots using bogie brake coaches to provide space for lying cases in the luggage area and sitting cases in the seated compartments. It appears that this train was not built but in the early part of the war the railway did provide two trains of nine non-corridor brake thirds and two brake vans each. These were put together very quickly and were operational in August of 1914. In the absence of any photographs of the trains or evidence of medical treatment facilities these were probably used for casualty evacuation from port to hospital. The trains were withdrawn in September and December of 1914 when the purpose designed ambulance trains came into service.” But the OP specifically asks for information on WW2 ambulance trains. In that context, the term "Maunsell coaches" is (at least nowadays) generally taken to mean his SR designs that followed on from his own "Thanet" stock and the LSWR "Ironclads". Until the advent of the "Continental" stock in 1921, Maunsell doesn't seem to have been "credited" with much in the way of SECR carriage design, suggesting that it may have been primarily the remit of the company's Carriage & Wagon Superintendent, at least during his early years as CME. John Edited February 15, 2018 by Dunsignalling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 I know; I was tweaking your nose really. And, I was careful to choose the word ‘oversaw’, which is a fairly elastic term. Kevin 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted February 15, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 15, 2018 I know; I was tweaking your nose really. And, I was careful to choose the word ‘oversaw’, which is a fairly elastic term. Kevin And was equally applicable (and sometimes even more elastic) in regard to many other CMEs where rolling stock was concerned. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clearwater Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 Is the ambulance coach in the NRM a Maunsell? Phil An excellent display btw Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted February 15, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 15, 2018 An excellent display btw Oh yes, of course! Did 'the boy' enjoy the Glory Hole (place with all the collections and stuff not on display?) P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clearwater Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 Oh yes, of course! Did 'the boy' enjoy the Glory Hole (place with all the collections and stuff not on display?) P Not as much as I did! My favourite part of the Museum. He generally likes the more interactive stuff but is happy pottering around. He even sat in the library whilst I browsed their collection. His younger brother thought it was great with lots of pointing, running and shouting "choo choo". It was both somewhat crowded and somewhat cold. Particularly on the miniature railway. Not the best photo of the smaller chap but the lighting's terrible and he doesn't sit still. The older one says his favourite part is going on Mallard's footplate. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted February 15, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 15, 2018 Not as much as I did! My favourite part of the Museum. He generally likes the more interactive stuff but is happy pottering around. He even sat in the library whilst I browsed their collection. His younger brother thought it was great with lots of pointing, running and shouting "choo choo". It was both somewhat crowded and somewhat cold. Particularly on the miniature railway. Not the best photo of the smaller chap but the lighting's terrible and he doesn't sit still. The older one says his favourite part is going on Mallard's footplate. David IMG_1705.JPGIMG_1702.JPG Good in there isn't it. I like the red bits best. I find the Library and the posh cafe quite relaxing places (the latter not between 12 and 13.30 though). Take care, Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clearwater Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 Good in there isn't it. I like the red bits best. I find the Library and the posh cafe quite relaxing places (the latter not between 12 and 13.30 though). Take care, Phil Sadly the posh cafe is off limits to us at present... the smallest chap isn’t terribly good at sitting still and is very inquisitive when there’s nice looking cutlery and china plates to grab! Whilst he may enjoy it, we wouldn’t and I doubt the other patrons would either. Worst moment for me was the large, realistic looking Viking axe we had purchased falling out of my coat pocket with a solid thud onto the floor of the bullet train carriage. I shrugged my shoulders nonchalantly and tried to pass it off that most people carry such items. The young lady next to me merely said “I’m not judging.” Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenGiraffe22 Posted February 20, 2018 Author Share Posted February 20, 2018 So, if not Maunsells, for an ambulance train running along the South East coast mid WW2, what sort of carriages might they have used , borrowed carriages from the GWR and LMS? It would be super useful if the carriages from the Bachmann WW1 set were put back into service Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 So, if not Maunsells, for an ambulance train running along the South East coast mid WW2, what sort of carriages might they have used , borrowed carriages from the GWR and LMS? It would be super useful if the carriages from the Bachmann WW1 set were put back into service Wasn't familiar with that set until you mentioned it - but they look remarkably like ex-Mainline L.M.S. - so called - 'Period 1' coaches which WERE converted for ambulance train use in the Second War* .......... though I seem to recall they were intended for overseas use rather than on these shores. Anything that would turn a wheel was used for Operation Dynamo, of course - from whatever Company could spare it get it down to Kent sharpish ! * They became full brakes afterwards. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenGiraffe22 Posted February 21, 2018 Author Share Posted February 21, 2018 (edited) Wasn't familiar with that set until you mentioned it - but they look remarkably like ex-Mainline L.M.S. - so called - 'Period 1' coaches which WERE converted for ambulance train use in the Second War* .......... though I seem to recall they were intended for overseas use rather than on these shores. Anything that would turn a wheel was used for Operation Dynamo, of course - from whatever Company could spare it get it down to Kent sharpish ! * They became full brakes afterwards. Googling 'WW2 Ambulance Train' throws up several images of WWI ambulance trains, but these two are both labelled WW2, the latter being 1939 http://www.swindonviewpoint.com/sites/default/files/GWR%20S%2086b%20WWII%20Ambulance%20Home%20Train%20vehicle%20assembled%20in%20the%20Works%20during%20WWII%20Feb%201945.jpg https://i1.wp.com/www.world-at-war.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/19025091_1936750343237619_1738153446023459308_o.jpg?resize=640%2C420&ssl=1 edit: Here are two more http://www.qaranc.co.uk/photos/Ambulance-Train-6304-World-War-Two-RAMC-QAIMNS-Staff-photo.JPG http://www.qaranc.co.uk/photos/Red-Cross-Ambulance-Train.jpg Edited February 21, 2018 by GreenGiraffe22 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 Googling 'WW2 Ambulance Train' throws up several images of WWI ambulance trains, but these two are both labelled WW2, the latter being 1939 http://www.swindonviewpoint.com/sites/default/files/GWR%20S%2086b%20WWII%20Ambulance%20Home%20Train%20vehicle%20assembled%20in%20the%20Works%20during%20WWII%20Feb%201945.jpg https://i1.wp.com/www.world-at-war.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/19025091_1936750343237619_1738153446023459308_o.jpg?resize=640%2C420&ssl=1 edit: Here are two more http://www.qaranc.co.uk/photos/Ambulance-Train-6304-World-War-Two-RAMC-QAIMNS-Staff-photo.JPG http://www.qaranc.co.uk/photos/Red-Cross-Ambulance-Train.jpg Yes, they're all WWII .... the first obviously a new-ish Collett brake, the second Southern 'Maunsell' corridor vans between a pair of SECR Corridor Brake Composites ( fourth photo ) .... and the third looks to be the prototype of the Bachmann model. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 My understanding - from contemporary articles that I had access to in the Ian Allan library was that a lot of WW2 'ambulance' coaches were converted GWR Siphon vans. I don't think one should assume that Southern vehicles were used on the SR etc.Researching ambulance trains is not easy. I have tried to find details of those which came here, to Barnwell, bringing mainly American casualties to the US 303rd Field Hospital which was at Lilford Hall just across from where I live. Sadly, Barnwell's down platform, which was extended to accommodate these trains is now lost under the A605 road. Hospital trains which were to be staffed by US personnel were fitted out to the same standard plan as the domestic American trains, and apparently comprised 16 vehicles. Only the dimensions of berths etc were adapted to the smaller loading gauge as the Americans wanted everything positioned as it was on the trains which they used to train the staff. (CJL) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 My understanding - from contemporary articles that I had access to in the Ian Allan library was that a lot of WW2 'ambulance' coaches were converted GWR Siphon vans. I don't think one should assume that Southern vehicles were used on the SR etc.Researching ambulance trains is not easy. I have tried to find details of those which came here, to Barnwell, bringing mainly American casualties to the US 303rd Field Hospital which was at Lilford Hall just across from where I live. Sadly, Barnwell's down platform, which was extended to accommodate these trains is now lost under the A605 road. Hospital trains which were to be staffed by US personnel were fitted out to the same standard plan as the domestic American trains, and apparently comprised 16 vehicles. Only the dimensions of berths etc were adapted to the smaller loading gauge as the Americans wanted everything positioned as it was on the trains which they used to train the staff. (CJL) Yes about half the flush-boarded Siphon Gs were used in ambulance trains .... I believe all returned to parcels use after the war : many with sheeting over the louvres as newspaper vans but all recognisable by the plethora of torpedo vents which the original Siphons didn't need. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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