Bachmann WD 2-8-0 in Desert Sand

[GreenGiraffe22]

Hello all, I keep seeing these pop up on ebay, I kinda want one, but I'm curious about how accurate they are... Were the real things really painted all desert sand underneath and everything like on the model? Because Bachmann's Desert Sand one kind of looks like a plastic kids toy compared to the other ones they've released... I did try googling a review and used the search option on this site but I couldn't really find anything.

[adb968008]

One here,

Looks to be having an identity crisis with a certain castle..

 

http://s374444733.websitehome.co.uk/wd2-8-0-1944/index.htm

[GreenGiraffe22]

One here,

Looks to be having an identity crisis with a certain castle..

 

http://s374444733.websitehome.co.uk/wd2-8-0-1944/index.htm

Cheers for the link, that guy's version looks much more convincing!

[bike2steam]

All the WD locos built up to March 1944 were painted a 'light khaki-brown' according to Tourret's 'Allied Military Locomotives' page 82, afterwards they were painted 'Army Green', confirming the above.

Edited February 11, 2018 by bike2steam

[Cor-onGRT4]

This is Longmoor in the Dutch railway museum here in my town .

It is the 1000th build WD loco and got this nameplate Longmoor when shiped to europe,

 it became dutch railway number 5085 after the war, the dutch railway hired 103 of these loco's to replace the war losses 

and to get the railways back on track after the war, they became series 5000-5103

It has brought back to here original livery when it become in the museum.

It is also the only steam loco in the museum you may enter the cab.

Edited February 11, 2018 by Cor-onGRT4

[Cor-onGRT4]

Here some more of longmoor and others in dutch working order, look at the one with extended chimny, an alteration done by the dutch railways.

Also some pictures of early life in the museum 

[adb968008]

Nice to see those pictures.

I’ve wondered is that WD one of the last British locos left to have never had a boiler lift ?

I say that, as it was built for the war, but I understand spent 2 years unused, before the Dutch railways took it on, and by the early 50’s it was withdrawn, with its entire service life being around 6-8 years service.

 

Bachmann have done the WD in NS service livery, I think 3 times, including fluted chimney, I’ve got two of them 4310 and 4479.

Edited February 11, 2018 by adb968008

[Cor-onGRT4]

Nice to see those pictures.

I’ve wondered is that WD one of the last British locos left to have never had a boiler lift ?

I say that, as it was built for the war, but I understand spent 2 years unused, before the Dutch railways took it on, and by the early 50’s it was withdrawn, with its entire service life being around 6-8 years service.

 

Bachmann have done the WD in NS service livery, I think 3 times, including fluted chimney, I’ve got two of them 4310 and 4479.

Longmoor WD 73755 [NS 5085] were shipped to France in 1945 , and after working for the WD it arrived in the Netherlands in 1946, the dutch railways hired 103 of these together with another smaller 2-8-0, as seen in post 6 with the extended chimney, those became dutch series 4301-4537.

On the picture in post 6 you see 2-8-0  NS 4464, it is now preseved at the KWVR 

All these WD loco's were first hired from the WD and after 1947 they became property of the dutch railways, all were scrapped after 1952, some were sold to the Swedies railways.

Longmoor got rebuild to the original form in 1952, because the dutch railways altered it a bit in the years before, afterwards it went to the railway museum.

If you ment this loco [Longmoor] , I don't think it got a boiler lift, because it never returned to the UK after the war.

And the alterations were only small because the railways here need all the rolling stock after the war, because of the great losses in the war and rolling stock that went over the German border to be used there and never returned or lost.

 

Here are some more pictures of the WD loco's, and one special one the first electric loco in the Netherlands LNER 6000, loned by the LNER to help the dutch railways.

It had the nickname Tommy, given by the dutch railway workers    

[adb968008]

Longmoor WD 73755 [NS 5085] were shipped to France in 1945 , and after working for the WD it arrived in the Netherlands in 1946, the dutch railways hired 103 of these together with another smaller 2-8-0, as seen in post 6 with the extended chimney, those became dutch series 4301-4537.

On the picture in post 6 you see 2-8-0  NS 4464, it is now preseved at the KWVR 

All these WD loco's were first hired from the WD and after 1947 they became property of the dutch railways, all were scrapped after 1952, some were sold to the Swedies railways.

Longmoor got rebuild to the original form in 1952, because the dutch railways altered it a bit in the years before, afterwards it went to the railway museum.

If you ment this loco [Longmoor] , I don't think it got a boiler lift, because it never returned to the UK after the war.

And the alterations were only small because the railways here need all the rolling stock after the war, because of the great losses in the war and rolling stock that went over the German border to be used there and never returned or lost.

 

Here are some more pictures of the WD loco's, and one special one the first electric loco in the Netherlands LNER 6000, loned by the LNER to help the dutch railways.

It had the nickname Tommy, given by the dutch railway workers

 

Very nice.

I saw the name plate from Tommy, resides in the museum at Utrecht too.

Fantastic museum there.

[Cor-onGRT4]

Here's a picture of plate from Tommy, and some other WD  loco's, you can see the alterations 

NS 4300 winter.html

Edited February 12, 2018 by Cor-onGRT4

[Wickham Green]

One here,

Looks to be having an identity crisis with a certain castle..

 

http://s374444733.websitehome.co.uk/wd2-8-0-1944/index.htm

I think that photo of 'a certain Castle' is misleading - yes the distribution of the lighter colour is definitely different to that in the lower photo ..... but is it actually khaki ? ...... the matt-finished smokebox would suggest good ol' photographic grey so it's probably not a reliable record of livery details at all ! 

[adb968008]

I think that photo of 'a certain Castle' is misleading - yes the distribution of the lighter colour is definitely different to that in the lower photo ..... but is it actually khaki ? ...... the matt-finished smokebox would suggest good ol' photographic grey so it's probably not a reliable record of livery details at all !

 

Possibly, but the wheel rims are white. Not saying it’s not possible, but when I shop around most works grey photographs the wheel rims are grey (or black from the edges). Most works photos tend to only pick out protrusions in white (hand rails, guard irons connecting rods etc) from the main assembly of the loco, or use white in complimenting the grey shades of a fully lined livery representation to make it stand out in a black and white photograph...

 

why would the wheels need highlighting in this instance ?

 

And more significantly why wouldn’t the protrusions be picked out in white (they are the std colour), whilst an official photograph, it’s not a catalog photograph.. otherwise people wouldn’t be in it..

 

That’s why I think this is a standard livery on a stock locomotive, not an official works grey catalog livery pose for a photograph.

On the second one.. everything’s black below the frame, which rather negates the camouflage purpose of the top of the locomotive... maybe that one is in standard WD livery, much like Longmoor, which is probably the most accurate resource give the time/age its been in preserved condition being so close to the war.

 

Either way, as black and white it’s hard to decipher the shade of khaki.

 

I wouldn’t know why these were lined white, (which is usually reserved for significant occasions for specific locos) I could speculate if the loco was partially covered in sand on rails it would help in determining the railhead depth, indeed making sand livery against a desert background stand out when working in close up is a safety factor, at least in theory.

Edited February 14, 2018 by adb968008

[GreenGiraffe22]

To revert back to my original question, I'm starting to suspect Bachmann's livery application is a bit basic in their desert sand version...?

[adb968008]

Just to follow a bit further..

 

This article is quite good,

https://www.lner.info/locos/O/WD_Austerity.php

 

it shows a very pale WD 2-10-0... whilst not a 2-8-0 it goes on to state

 

“

The first batch of LNER engines were painted khaki-brown, whilst the second batch was khaki-green.

“

 

Quite clearly that is not the same as Desert Sand...

 

Perhaps the answer lies here, digging round the internet there is a photograph of the loco (but I do not have access to the source which is apparently:

 

The Locomotive Magazine and Railway Carriage and Wagon Review

Volume 50 (1944) : Number 617 (15 January 1944)

Ministry of Supply 2-8-0 tender locomotive. 9. illustration

No. 7199 supplied by North British Locomotive Co.

 

Does Anyone have access to this ?, as presumably it would be a 1943 image, and therefore an as built.

 

Historically.. the Africa campaign ended in Axis surrender on 13th May 1943, so presumably need for desert liveries declined from this date. Certainly the pictures I’ve seen of the 2-10-0 and LMS 8fs in the Middle East appears to be black in 1943.

Of course there’s always a risk, if that image does show a desert sand WD..it could always be a folly, after all a wartime publication of a locomotive destined for a theatre of war that’s been already won months earlier, wearing a livery it didn’t carry for a place it didn’t go to.. isn’t beyond realm of possibility too in war time...after all its new technology and what you want the enemy to know needs to be controlled in all media, including industry and enthusiasts publications.

 

 

By comparison 7029 in that image was built April 1943, so at that point, and the months preceding, the outcome of the Africa campaign was unknown, and therefore not unreasonable to assume WD 2-8-0’s might be required to go to North Africa.

Edited February 15, 2018 by adb968008

[JSpencer]

FWIW - Desert Sand was still in use in Italy.

[jcredfer]

Just to follow a bit further..

 

This article is quite good,

https://www.lner.info/locos/O/WD_Austerity.php

 

it shows a very pale WD 2-10-0... whilst not a 2-8-0 it goes on to state

 

“

The first batch of LNER engines were painted khaki-brown, whilst the second batch was khaki-green.

“

 

Quite clearly that is not the same as Desert Sand...

 

Perhaps the answer lies here, digging round the internet there is a photograph of the loco (but I do not have access to the source which is apparently:

 

The Locomotive Magazine and Railway Carriage and Wagon Review

Volume 50 (1944) : Number 617 (15 January 1944)

Ministry of Supply 2-8-0 tender locomotive. 9. illustration

No. 7199 supplied by North British Locomotive Co.

 

Does Anyone have access to this ?, as presumably it would be a 1943 image, and therefore an as built.

 

Historically.. the Africa campaign ended in Axis surrender on 13th May 1943, so presumably need for desert liveries declined from this date. Certainly the pictures I’ve seen of the 2-10-0 and LMS 8fs in the Middle East appears to be black in 1943.

Of course there’s always a risk, if that image does show a desert sand WD. it could always be a folly, after all a wartime publication of a locomotive destined for a theatre of war that’s been already won months earlier, wearing a livery it didn’t carry for a place it didn’t go to.. isn’t beyond realm of possibility too in war time...after all its new technology and what you want the enemy to know needs to be controlled in all media, including industry and enthusiasts publications.

 

 

By comparison 7029 in that image was built April 1943, so at that point, and the months preceding, the outcome of the Africa campaign was unknown, and therefore not unreasonable to assume WD 2-8-0’s might be required to go to North Africa.

 

Quite right about the deception.  Father got sent to Egypt at the beginning of the war, for the N Africa campains.  As they were loaded onto ships at Liverpool, they were accompanied by tanks, field guns and other transport.  The vehicles were all painted in Arctic white camouflage, as a deception, lest german paid informants were observing the loading.  The troops weren't told where they were headed and assumed that it wasn't likely to be hot.  It was only later when taking on ship's supplies in Durban [!!] that they realised they were headed to N Africa.  The desert paint jobs were done aboard ship on the last leg - so good of the army to have an activity to keep the troops entertained en-route.

 

Kind regards

 

Julian