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Coaches for Culreoch





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#26 Removed a/c_stuartp

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 20:40

Thanks for the prototype shot. I see enough from that to understand I need to do a lot more studying. These vehicles aren't covered by my sole coaching stock book: the relevant Historic Carriage Drawings volume.


Good fun isn't it ? :huh: Every time I think I've sussed it another quirk or variation drops out of the woodwork. Volume 2 of Essery & Jenkinson's "Illustrated History of LMS Standard Coaching Stock" covers general service gangwayed vehicles and can usually be found for less than the silly money that Volume 1 (NPCCS etc) seems to command. (still looking ! :angry: ).

Before I put an order in to Comet to take care of the Vic Berry pile of Airfix coaches in the loft I need to sit down with the picture books and identify some of the Port Road sets down to diagram numbers etc. The rule seems to have been 'no two vehicles of exactly the same style in the same rake' or so it seems at times ! I have a similar dillema with the Hornby coaches too, I'm undecided what to do with my three. (Troop train ? :P )



#27 Jamie

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Posted 13 November 2010 - 20:11

The CK. Whilst now in possession of more information, I'm opting to build this as it comes out the box and cast a blind eye to the peculiarities of the type. I know my limits as a newstart to this game of metalwork!
CK_1.jpg

The C-section brass will be trimmed to length in due course. I've neglected (in characteristic style) to solder the nuts into the ends prior to sticking the roof on. So I expect this one will have captive bolts instead, not a problem really - I'm just frustrated at my carelessness.

The BCK hasn't seen any progress, due to misplacing the instructions for roof and underframe bits - since both downloaded and found in hard-copy.

#28 Pugsley

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 11:26

I know my limits as a newstart to this game of metalwork!

Ah, just get stuck in and you'll be fine! I admit, it's a bit daunting to start with - it took ages to start my 4mm Tamper, but I've found that I prefer working with metal to plastic now.

To my untrained eye it's looking great so far.

#29 Jamie

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 19:46

I can understand that Pugsley, completely. A nice soldered joint is very satisfying to produce (boy, that sounds sad!), and I trust it as an end-product much more than a glued or solvent-welded plastic joint. But see cutting/fettling metal with no fixed workbench?

Anyway. It's all very experimental for now. The next few coaches to follow on from these won't use the Comet roof profile, and I'll see what implications that change has on these two early builds.

#30 Jamie

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Posted 20 November 2010 - 19:32

Back to the BCK this week for an hour or two. Most of the whitemetal bits in place:
BCK-20Nov.jpg

Might find time to get the duckets on tonight, then underframe next weekend perhaps. It's needing a good clean and coat of primer, by the look of it.

Given that I made a bit of a mess of drilling holes in the roof - aluminium is tougher than I thought - it's looking tidy enough. Corridor connectors may end up being replaced with Hornby plastic mouldings.

#31 Brian Kirby

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Posted 20 November 2010 - 21:52

Hi Jamie,
The BCK is looking good. I know the feeling, drilling through the aluminium roof, it's tough stuff. After marking out positions, i like to drill small pilot holes for accuracy and then come along with my big slow-speed DIY drill for the size of the vent shank. A pillar drill would be even better !
I notice you haven't fitted your doorsteps yet, although the buffers are already on. You'll have to protect the buffers with a heatsink, when you come to solder the steps to the solebars at the corners.
Have you thought of using the old-fashioned card gangways ? Keep up the good work.
Cheers, Brian.

#32 Jamie

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Posted 20 November 2010 - 22:31

Thanks Brian,

Yes - I'd forgotten about the footsteps in all honesty. Will be on the hunt for some suitable, unequal-leg L-angle brass, Eileens will have something no doubt. The paper/card gangways are an option I ought to try, really not enamoured by the whitemetal ones. Maybe nice, detailed plastic ones at end of the rake, and paper within.

I've been considering a pillar-drill mount for my minidrill - fed up with drill wander on various tasks.

#33 Removed a/c_Max Stafford

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Posted 21 November 2010 - 02:42

Looking very good so far Jamie!

Dave.

#34 the penguin of doom

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 10:31

Just picked up on this thread.

Some nice work there Jamie.

I always liked the porthole LMS stock although don't know much about them to be honest.

Regards.

Sean.

#35 Mallard60022

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 15:04

Back to the BCK this week for an hour or two. Most of the whitemetal bits in place:
BCK-20Nov.jpg

Might find time to get the duckets on tonight, then underframe next weekend perhaps. It's needing a good clean and coat of primer, by the look of it.

Given that I made a bit of a mess of drilling holes in the roof - aluminium is tougher than I thought - it's looking tidy enough. Corridor connectors may end up being replaced with Hornby plastic mouldings.


Looks good Jamie. Be they Comet connectors?
36E

#36 IC126

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Posted 09 December 2010 - 17:38

Probably a bit late for you on this build, Jamie, but the attached pic might be of interest for the next one.

I see you haven't yet marked out the roof ribs - I used to use a square piece of material cut from a large size yoghurt carton to to help scribe the weld lines on MTK DMUs and the like. I've made something similar for the Easybuild 7mm coaches I've been working on out of a "conveniently shaped piece of aluminium" - which I fortunately had to hand.

The plain square was so useful, I cut another similar piece to help mark out the vent / periscope / tank filler positions. I made small nicks at the correct position of the ventilators from the centreline with a triangular file. As long as the material is cut square and fits snugly to the roof it can be used to quickly mark out repetitive roof detail with very good reproducibility. The pin hole is half a roof panel width from the end, so can be used to find the positions of the vents from the panel joins. Simples.

Roof marking tool.jpg
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#37 Jamie

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Posted 09 December 2010 - 19:14

Thanks Dave, Sean.

M.60022 - yes, Comet castings.

Andrew - that's a very neat idea, I like that. I've another 3-4 here awaiting the ever-rarer round tuit (nothing doing on the WB just now), so I'll try it out on the next build. :good_mini:

#38 Jamie

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Posted 09 February 2011 - 23:16

Afraid I lost all interest in this back at the end of November, and haven't done much productive since then. However, with a view to getting my backside in gear and doing some modelling, I went through the stock boxes thinking on what was needing done. When I got round to the coaches last weekend there was one indisputable fact - the wall to wall Mk1 stock was (a) unprototypical and hence (b) really annoying me.

So it was out with the brass and out with the soldering iron.


The BCK has been sidelined for the moment, I don't need a BCK, and the thing is riddled with newbie build errors which will take time to fix. :blush:

I've brought the porthole composite almost up to where I was with the brake, still short of some of the detailing.
IMAGE_045.jpg

Two things still concern me, that's door hinges and foot step boards. The former I know how to do from Mallard60022 and Coachmann's threads... just a bit wary about opening up slots in the brass sides. I've a load of 0.5mm drills in stock - I expect to break a few.

I took an unsuccessful stab at the step boards tonight, tip on my iron is too big and I think I need to get hold of a trained octopus with asbestos mitts to hold everything steady and in alignment. I can always opt for plastic steps if it comes to it.
^_^
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#39 coachmann

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Posted 09 February 2011 - 23:31

Tip : Burn your fingers a few times until nature grows a thick protective skin on them! I hold things in place while they are soldered, but I remember last years when, after some weeks in hospital, l had to start over and grow new skin on my dainty mits...B) :D

When slotting the door groove to take hinges, the drill wants to move to the right during slotting . So unless you counter for this you' ll end up with a diagonal slot.
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#40 Mallard60022

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 09:52

Afraid I lost all interest in this back at the end of November, and haven't done much productive since
Know the feeling!

I've brought the porthole composite almost up to where I was with the brake, still short of some of the detailing.
Looking VG. (Forgive the question - are you running these in later life e.g 60's? If so you need to check the end steps. It would appear they were removed, bar the bottom one, on most coaches around this time. However I am happy to be corrected on this).

Two things still concern me, that's door hinges and foot step boards. The former I know how to do from Mallard60022 and Coachmann's threads... just a bit wary about opening up slots in the brass sides. I've a load of 0.5mm drills in stock - I expect to break a few.
Try both methods and see what works for you.

I took an unsuccessful stab at the step boards tonight, tip on my iron is too big and I think I need to get hold of a trained octopus with asbestos mitts to hold everything steady and in alignment.
Coach is much braver than me :lol:. I use the Comet method of drilling sole-bar holes (having checked the position of the steps several times :)AND measured/marked the position of the holes on the solebar then made a 'pilot mark' with a scriber) for 4.5 wire and then soldering wire bits through the sole-bars. I use nickel silver wire if possible as it's more springy. Using a long length with a little 90* twist at what will be the end on the 'rear' of the sole-bar, l solder these whilst holding the work in an angled vice. The wire is then trimmed. I cut and shape the step boards using the doors as a guide to size as well as any prototype pics & the instructions (however the latter are often generic). Then the frame with little wire supports all ready, is repositioned in the angled vice so that I can hold each step-board in place from the top side with a cocktail stick, whilst applying a little cream flux and then solder (tiny bit) from the underside. I know some folk hate cream flux but I use it as it stays in place and also helps hold the work still and it's very easy to clean thoroughly from these joints.
Seems a bit of a faff (it is) but you end up with quite a good job and hardly any burns!


I can always opt for plastic steps if it comes to it.
For the bogie steps maybe?
^_^


Hope this helps?
36E
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#41 Jamie

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 10:15

Thanks guys. My delicate fingers are the problem then!

I like the proposed step method with wire brackets, I can see me managing that. Will have a go tonight.
(though you're worrying me about end steps... 1963-64... will have a check through the photographs and see if anything's visible in the shadows)
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#42 Removed a/c_stuartp

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 10:21

I'm pretty sure I just butt-jointed mine (it was a while ago though !) - you need a big iron and either a screwdriver/chisel shaped bit, or tin both parts and apply heat from the rear of the solebar. Mallard's method will provide a stronger joint though.

#43 Mallard60022

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 13:47

I'm pretty sure I just butt-jointed mine (it was a while ago though !) - you need a big iron and either a screwdriver/chisel shaped bit, or tin both parts and apply heat from the rear of the solebar. Mallard's method will provide a stronger joint though.


Thanks Stuart, however the steps 'method' is very much that from Comet Model's 'Building Coaches the Comet Way' (available as a download on their site).

Sorry about end steps (did I say end steps before?) hint Jamie. You can check with Coachman as he will know, however I am pretty sure all but the bottom one were removed due to overhead power line dangers. This was across the regions too; I first saw this when studying Bulleid stock.
36E.

#44 coachmann

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 16:03

I'd only be hazarding a guess that steps started to be removed in 1961, but many had gone a couple of years later. This is a Stanier coach minus its steps. Note the long curved handrail has also gone and has been replaced by a short handgrab. Therefore if you see the long handrail is missing in photos of trains, assume the steps have been removed.
WEB Stanier no end steps.jpg
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#45 Jamie

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 20:36

Thanks all.

I've had a look through my 'best' books but it's remarkably hard to see anything! I can generally spot the long handrail in the gloom but never the steps. I have only spotted one cut down handrail as above so far.

So I can maybe get away with leaving this one as-is.


Edit: back next time with something to show ... soon-ish. ;)

#46 Removed a/c_stuartp

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 22:13

Yes, the normally helpful Robotham doesn't really show much, except that photographers seem to prefer the other corner to the one we want ! There's a porthole CK on page 68 with the handrail visible in 1965, which offers some hope. However, there's another Michael Mensing colour pic published elsewhere which shows one of the 'no window vent' CKs on the Kirkcudbright branch with the long handrail but no steps in 1963.

It never occurred to me to look for the damn steps before !

#47 Bob Reid

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 22:31

Rather than repeat the whole thread here's an extract of the answer I gave a couple of years back on the question of end steps;

.........as far as the removal of the end steps. they were (bar the bottom step) not fitted to new build stock from mid to late 1959. From the same period they began removal of the top three steps from all existing stock as they passed thro' main works. Prior to removal and again from late 1959 all vehicles were scheduled for immediate fitment of the OHL warning signs (even if the steps had not been removed). Those vehicle not fitted from new were recognisable by having short handrails fitted on the left- hand side of the end (at the non-toilet ends). There were a couple of different approaches to making good the step positions once removed - fitting the 16g plates over the bolt holes as on your model was one, but also many vehicles had the steps unbolted and the fixing bolts put back into the old holes (less the step of course), others purely had just the steps cut off, leaving the two mounting strips still bolted in place. Note also the stepboard above the gangway should have been removed at the same time.


Although the modification was started in 1959, it's clear they were still modifying vehicles in 1965 so apart from modelling a specific vehicle from a photo on a given date, it would be acceptable to model them either with or without!
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#48 Jamie

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 10:55

A week passes, door handrails go on, and yesterday saw the roof marked out, drilled and fitted out. Very short of torpedo vents, so I had to steal them back off the BCK until I can get my mitts on some more.

I'd like to get the primer coat on today, but have much else to be doing... need to get the buffers on and give it a final clean first as well.

I've given up on stepboards, they were starting to take the p*ss ( :angry: ) and I'm needing to get this off the workbench, time is getting short. As was my patience!
P1010438w.jpg

These composites don't seem to have had the prominent strips on the roof that the RtR manufacturers depict on their earlier diagram Stanier coaches. More like a Mk1 roof, by the looks of it.
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#49 Removed a/c_Max Stafford

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 12:53

Looking great Jamie. You're nearly there so keep it going!

Dave.

#50 coachmann

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 13:06

I'm not suprised you gave up on the footboards Jamie. The idea of soldering bits of wire into holes and soldering footboards to the wire clearly hasnt been thought through by those who proposed it. Brass coach manufacturers could so easily produce footboards to make life easier for kit builders. In fact there is a way out. 247 Developments produces full-length etched solebars and footboards for 57ft coaches. They come in two types suitable for later LNWR and LMS Period I coaches. The footboards could be cut to length to suit Stanier coaches and only need a small slot or slots drilling in the coach solebars.