Port of London Authority

[sp762]

Hello.

 

My first post here, I think.

 

I was down at the local model railway show today, and foolishly signed up to produce a british N scale layout for next year.

 

Since my cunning plan is to model a slice of London's dockland in the 1950-60 period - I was thinking about dock shunters.

 

Can anyone enlighten me as to what happened to the PLA locomotive fleet after nationalisation? Did it become part of BR or remain separate?

 

Is there a handly internet list of the locos in use by the PLA in this period?

 

Thanks in advance

 

Mike in Oz

[James]

IIRC the PLA network and its locos would remain as part of the Docks, as it wasn't a public railway but classed as an industrial concern.

 

There's a bit about it in this book -

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lost-Lines-London-Railway/dp/0711026238

 

And I'm sure there have been articles at various time in Railway Bylines.

 

Hope that's of some use

 

Oh, and welcome to RMweb

[unravelled]

I don't know if this would be any use, but there is a model of the 1960s proposals in the science museum.

 

I guess it's rather inaccessible to you, but I found some photos of it on flickr.

 

 

Dave

[petethemole]

The PLA still exists and has a website including an archive section. It was never nationalised as it wasn't/isn't a private enterprise. The archive website appears to have a lot of material. Hope this helps.

Pete

[Adam]

The PLA still exists and has a website including an archive section. It was never nationalised as it wasn't/isn't a private enterprise. The archive website appears to have a lot of material. Hope this helps.

Pete

 

And here's the link: http://www.pla.co.uk/centenary

 

As James says, the PLA railways have appeared several times in Railway Bylines. You can search the archive and buy back issues here:

 

http://www.irwellpress.com/acatalog/RAILWAY_BYLINES.html

 

EDIT: I should add that the standard steam type in the post-war period was a rather chunky Hudswell Clarke 0-6-0T (Agenoria Models do a kit in 7mm: http://www.ukmodelshops.co.uk/agenoria/kit/198)

 

Adam

[Sir Hadyn]

There was also a book "PLA Railways" published in the 1950s by the Locomotive Publishing Company, it's quite rare now sadly, I saw a copy at Henry Wilson's in Sedbergh a year or so ago, but couldn't justify the £80 price. Might be worth keeping an eye on Abebooks.com from time to time.

[br2975]

Can anyone enlighten me as to what happened to the PLA locomotive fleet after nationalisation? Did it become part of BR or remain separate?

 

The P.L.A. dieselised its' loco fleet in the late 1950s early 1960s and standardised on Yorkshire Engine Co products.

.

With the decline of railway traffic they sold off the YE diesels.

.

The largest single puchaser of the former PLA Yorkshire diesels was Guest Keen & Nettlefold who used them at their Castle Works and Tremorfa Works in Cardiff.

.

In the mid to late 1970s GKN and British Steel co-operated to form Allied Steel & Wire (which later became an independent company) and the YE diesels became the property of ASW until they let out their railway business circa 1994, to Wilmott Bros. Ilkeston.

 

The YE locos were then either sold off, deployed elsehwre or scrapped and replaced by several bags of nuts on eccentric wheels . . . . . which caused ASW to enter a contract with Transrail instead, who supplied Cl.08 shunters.

.

At least one of the YE shunters is preserved, IIRC at Toddington.

.

Brian R

[sp762]

Thanks for the helpful answers.

 

Since I'm working in N scale, the locomotive choices mean I'll probably look at modelling a fictional BR owned wharf - which means I can see an O3 and 08 in my future - to go with my collection of BR Black steamers.

 

I've spent the morning most enjoyably looking at pictures of railway arches for the backdrop... I'm working on the idea of a third rail electric mainline, with the docks/industrial area in the foreground.

 

The thing that has spurred to to this foolishness was the exhibition I attended on the weekend. Apart from a superb and eyecatching Japanese Railways N scale layout, there was a lot of Australian modelling (as you would expect.) A couple of US layouts, then two british outline stands.

 

One was in EM - lots of very nice locos modelled but not a lot of movement. A couple of N scale tail chasers - one of which featured 'Thomas.' the other one had someof the superb new Dapol and GF locos, attached to the wrong stock (9F on a long train of PO wagons with an NE liveried brake van, for example.)

 

I'm certain it's possible to do better than that - I already have the stock to prove it. So I just need to build a layout to show it off, I guess. I have been planning this in my head for over a decade, so it's time to fish or cut bait.

 

I'll keep you posted!

[Paul372]

Just to add to the replies so far, yes one of the ex PLA locos is at Toddington on the GWSR. It is YE 2760 which I think was PLA number 235, it became 372 under GKN / ASW. Currently undergoing an engine change to replace the worn Rolls engine with a reconditioned supercharged unit, hopefully it will be back in action in the next few months. A photo is attached showing it in its current condition.

[Lisa]

Hi

Dock railway systems generally only became part of BR if the dock were owned pre 1948 by a big four railway company. Thus Southampton docks were owned by the Southern, and previously by the London and South Western Railway became part of BR, but the PLA was not part of a big four company and thus it retained independent control of it's railways after nationalisation of transport in 1948.

 

Lisa

 

 

[Pacific231G]

Hi

Dock railway systems generally only became part of BR if the dock were owned pre 1948 by a big four railway company. Thus Southampton docks were owned by the Southern, and previously by the London and South Western Railway became part of BR, but the PLA was not part of a big four company and thus it retained independent control of it's railways after nationalisation of transport in 1948.

Hi Lisa . Thanks for reminding me just how fascinating railways and ports together can be. Do you happen to know when the PLA's independent railway system more or less stopped operating?

 

At the risk of being pedantic the Southampton docks were never actually part of BR though AFAIK it did provide all the motive power. After nationalisation the Railway Executive within the British Transport Commission retained control of the railway owned "packet" (i.e. ferry) ports but the railways' general and coal ports were transferred to the Docks and Inland Waterways Executive. I suppose the two executives were part of the same organisation but when the BTC was abolished in 1963 railways went to the British Railways Board while docks and waterways were split into the separate British Transport Docks Board and the British Waterways Board. Though some docks went to new port authorities, Southampton and Hull remained with the British Transport Docks Board until it was privatised as ABP in 1983.

 

I worked in South Western House in Southampton- the old SW Hotel- from 1979 and for a couple of years although most rail traffic was simply going in and out of the port as complete trains there were some wagon movements between the Eastern and Western docks along the tramway that still connected them via Town Quay. I've no idea what the contractual arrangements were between BR and the Docks board to operate the internal railways but BR maintained a sub shed to Eastleigh for the docks locomotives within the Eastern Docks. There is a very good Railway Roundabout film about railway workings in the Southampton Docks and it's on YouTube.

 

Apart from the PLA, the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board and the Manchester Ship Canal also had extensive railways with their own locomotives. I don't know how many other non railway owned ports ran to their own rail systems but there were certainly a few including small operations like Corrall's at Dibles Wharf in Southampton that bought the "Corrall Queen" (aka Normandy) from BR.

 

Unfortunately I was always just a few years too late to see much actual operation of port railways. Most of them still had plenty of trackwork but the trains had turned into lorries.

 

 

David

[L49]

Thanks for the helpful answers.

 

Since I'm working in N scale, the locomotive choices mean I'll probably look at modelling a fictional BR owned wharf - which means I can see an O3 and 08 in my future - to go with my collection of BR Black steamers.

 

I've spent the morning most enjoyably looking at pictures of railway arches for the backdrop... I'm working on the idea of a third rail electric mainline, with the docks/industrial area in the foreground.

 

 

 

You don't have to look too far for a very easy PLA conversion. They had some (not sure how many) austerity 060 saddle tanks working in the docks. You can simply respray a couple of farish J94s into dark blue with white PLA lettering. They weren't even lined out!

 

I think there is a huge amount of scope for modelling the London Docks, and I wouldn't worry too much about having an main line nearby at all. The internal system was so complex, including it's own independant signalling system (in the Royal docks at least) that you could build a really interesting and fun to operate layout without having to include anything BR at all.

 

All I will say is have a good look at the various options for locating the layout, particularly which bank of the Thames you want to model (I think all the PLA lines were on the north side, but I am not entirely sure) I know what you mean about having locos running with inappropriate stock but just as important is making sure that the neighbouring architecture and style of buildings will set the location of the layout even without any stock. I have seen too many nicely put together exhibition layouts really let down by the use of inappropriate buildings, I think the best one was a 'London' layout that featured a beautifully made low relief kit of a bavarian factory, set among various low relief houses that would have looked quite at home in Amsterdam! The tube stock was nice though!

[adanapress]

Ome PLA steam loco was at one time plinthed on a very small site, fenced off

from the smallest children, in a remote corner of an estate in Beckton, East London, not far from its original work area. Its gone from there now, I know

not where

[Pacific231G]

Port of Bristol mainly at Avonmouth and some Portishead as well also Preston.

Did what is the current Bristol Harbour Railway (part of the museum I think) become part of the Port of Bristol's system or did it remain with the GWR (who built it as a JV with the Bristol and Exeter?) and then BR. I've got a plan of the dockside railways in Bristol somewhere but it doesn't say who owned what.

[Fat Controller]

Did what is the current Bristol Harbour Railway (part of the museum I think) become part of the Port of Bristol's system or did it remain with the GWR (who built it as a JV with the Bristol and Exeter?) and then BR. I've got a plan of the dockside railways in Bristol somewhere but it doesn't say who owned what.

Looking at the relevant volume of Cooke's 'Track Layout of the GWR and BR(WR), it would appear that the running lines were railway-owned, but those actually on the quayside itself were covered by Private Siding Agreements.

Elsewhere in the country, the North-East had Seaham Harbour Trust, Port of Tees Authority, along with whoever operated Hartlepool and Sunderland. The North-West had Preston, Barrow, Workington and Whitehaven.

My home-town, Llanelli, boasted the 'Nevill's Dock and Railway Company', which served both the docks and various local industries, and somehow managed to avoid both Grouping and Nationalisation.

[EddieB]

A full listing of the PLA locomotive fleet appears in the recent "Industrial Railways & Locomotives of the County of London" (Wayell & Jux, pub. Industrial Railway Society). This gives basic information (builder, works number date, wheel arrangement), dates of arrival and departure, and there are nine b&w photos (steam and diesel) included. It also references "P.L.A. Railways" by Peacock (Loco. Pub Co, 1952) and "Railway Bylines" April-May 1997 (as already cited).