Signalling questions

[Dagworth]

 

This is the track layout of Ravensclyffe south junction (see http://www.rmweb.co....8-ravensclyffe/) and I have a few odd questions about whether what I am planning would be correct.

The layout is set in the Stoke-On-Trent area about 1983.

The main aspect signals I'm happy with, their positions and what they are are as shown on the diagram.

My questions are as follows.

• Reception road signals (shown by "A" on the diagram). Should these be semaphore dummies or ground position lights? My preferance is for GPLs, can I get away with using GPLs here as the yard is supposed to have been modernised in the sixties with the introduction of MGR traffic to the mine.
• Yard signal "C". Can this be a single yellow faced dummy (semaphore) (my preference) or would it be two red faced dummies stacked? Or should it also be a GPL if GPLs are used for the reception roads? My thinking is that this part of the yard was untouched by the alterations in the 60s. The yard road splits to more than one siding further back but not signal controlled.
• Shunt neck signals "B". I'd like these to be the original semaphore dummies from before the reception roads were modernised (one is already installed...) but have a question about the one on the lower neck. If "C" is a yellow faced dod would this signal (in the neck) be off all the time while shunting took place and only replaced to on when the crossover needed to be reversed to let a train enter or leave the yard?
• Shunt signal by the Level Crossing "D". Which side of the crossing should it be? Just clear of the points it protects or clear of the crossing as well? I'm thinking of a GPL here with stencils to let the driver know where he is going.

Any advice from our resident signal experts would be much appreciated.

 

Andi

[TheSignalEngineer]

Assuming that it is loosely based on a place in the Etruria - Longport area, when the electrification was done in 1965/6, all shunt signals at mechanical boxes were either ground discs or in some cases tall, short arm semaphores.

 

Generally, Traffic and Loco inspectors liked to keep the same types of signals in the same vicinity, although I have done jobs where one end of the yard was discs and the other GPLs, or one direction discs and the other GPLs.

 

Specifically, referring to your questions and assuming a certain amount of remodelling for MGR working etc,

 

A - The type of signals would depend on the aspects displayed reading into the Receptions. I assume they would be non-track circuited lines so would have a shunt aspect from the colour light on the main line. At Grange Junction the Reception Line had a ground disc at the end.

Assuming later modifications took place at your location, these could have been changed to GPLS, or even Fixed Reds with cats eyes. It would depend largely on the types of moves and signal visibility.

 

B - The ground disc in the lower neck could actually stand "Off" with the lever normal in the frame. This was fairly common on the LMR where a lot of shunting took place, as it meant that the signalman didn't have to keep walking round the lever as he went up and down the frame. The lever would be pulled, replacing the signal to danger, when the crossover was required for use.

 

C - Could be a yellow disc, as with B standing off the shunter could play to his heart's content without waking the Signalman.

 

D - The position depends on whether it is desired to raise the barriers before the train returns to the sidings. Also, some HMRI Inspectors didn't like trains standing over crossings. If road traffic is such that the shunt standing on the crossing whilst the road is pulled up for the returning move won't upset too many motorists, then put it at the points. If you want to drop a train out to go across to the other side of the layout, it could be in a position to allow road traffic to pass whilst setting the points for the next move. This signal would have originally been a stacked disc or single disc with stencils

[beast66606]

As Eric says - I'd make C a double disc, then make B and top C normally off, levers pulled to replace them to danger for departures from the yard, using low C.

 

I'd also put D on the outside of the level crossing rather than at the points, it would look better on a model with compressed spacing.

[Dagworth]

Thanks for the replies so far chaps, very useful thoughts.

 

Next question, does anyone have a photo of the old design of GPL that looks like an overgrown tobacco tin with lens hoods?

 

Andi

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks for the replies so far chaps, very useful thoughts.

 

Next question, does anyone have a photo of the old design of GPL that looks like an overgrown tobacco tin with lens hoods?

 

Andi

 

Which manufacturer sir? Some of the Stoke area being done by a Swedish bunch (whose kit I don't think I have pics of but you description seems to match?) but I can do AEI-GRS who did some of the WCML electrification era signalling (e.g. Nuneaton) plus Westinghouse and SGE and appropriate style of numberplates etc for the LM.

[Dagworth]

Which manufacturer sir? Some of the Stoke area being done by a Swedish bunch (whose kit I don't think I have pics of but you description seems to match?) but I can do AEI-GRS who did some of the WCML electrification era signalling (e.g. Nuneaton) plus Westinghouse and SGE and appropriate style of numberplates etc for the LM.

 

Oh blimey, I've no idea...

 

Andi

[The Stationmaster]

Oh blimey, I've no idea...

 

Andi

 

How's about this sort of thing?

 

 

[beast66606]

I have some pics of signals around Macclesfield -> Stoke areas - but sadly they are 250 miles from my new home at the moment, won't be able to collect them for a few weeks, maybe longer.

 

Try googling Longport, Etruria, Stoke etc. - for pics of trains and see what you can find perhaps ?

[TheSignalEngineer]

Signals at Stoke PSB were from ML Engineering of Plymouth. It was the only box they were involved in on the WCML, and the contract area only ran from Stone to Etruria. I think i still have a file of stats on the WCML electrification in the garage, so I will look it out later, but I think from memory that when my patch included Grange to North Rode it was AEI-GRS equipment. It definitely had a lot of Trafford Park manufactured M series relays around.

 

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

Have checked the old notes, Grange Junction to Cheadle Hulme signalling was AEI-GRS. They also did Colwich to Atherstone and Nuneaton PSB, plus Kenton to Cheddington (Watford PSB)

[beast66606]

By a strange co-incidence the top document on my pile to be sorted is Special Notice 699G, Resignalling Grange Junction - to Meaford Crossing - i.e Stoke-on-Trent

 

16th July 1966

Stoke Yard North Shunting Frame "existing semaphore signals will be replaced by position light signals"

 

Pratts Sidings Shunt Frame lost it's running signals but retained semaphore shunts

 

hth

[Dagworth]

Sorry for not replying sooner, I've been too busy with trying to get Foxglove ready for STORMex. Now the show is out of the way I can come back to concentrating on Ravensclyffe.

Thanks for the replies so far, some really useful information so far. Are the pics from Stationmaster AEI-GRS signals?

 

This is the kind of GPLs that I would like to use, the rectangular case version. This is scratchbuilt this evening.

Can anyone confirm whether I can use this design of signal, and if so does anyone have a photo of a real one of this design?

 

Andi

[t-b-g]

I was at Truro station a short while ago and the arrangement of the signals at the level crossing (including the position of the signal box) is just as you have drawn. The odd thing is that Truro has both the signals you have marked as "D" but I couldn't tell why. I did ask a guard (or whatever they are called nowadays) on a train if they knew why the shunting dollies were arranged like that but the reply was "What's a dolly?" so perhaps it is not a term used down them there parts! There is so little length between the doll next to the points and the gates that you couldn't realistically get much over the cross over without opening the gates and the two dolls are only a few yards apart.

 

I couldn't think of any reason for having both but perhaps our tame signalling experts can suggest something!

[The Stationmaster]

Sorry for not replying sooner, I've been too busy with trying to get Foxglove ready for STORMex. Now the show is out of the way I can come back to concentrating on Ravensclyffe.

Thanks for the replies so far, some really useful information so far. Are the pics from Stationmaster AEI-GRS signals?

 

This is the kind of GPLs that I would like to use, the rectangular case version. This is scratchbuilt this evening.

 

Can anyone confirm whether I can use this design of signal, and if so does anyone have a photo of a real one of this design?

 

Andi

 

The pic I posted was indeed of AEI-GRS kit. The one you have made bears much more than a passing resemblance to the SGE design and here are several of them - regrettably (from your viewpoint) some of them are only subs and thus only have two lights, one has extended lens hoods and the bracket at Perth is at a bit of an angle as I was doing a quick pic from a coach window as we left. The back is a casting on these heads.

BTW ref the situation at Truro the arrangement of the dummies (they are not 'dollies' on the Western!!) is largely a consequence of past recoveries and minimising locking alterations when they took place.

 

 

 

 

 

[Keith Simons]

Signals at Stoke PSB were from ML Engineering of Plymouth. It was the only box they were involved in on the WCML, and the contract area only ran from Stone to Etruria. I think i still have a file of stats on the WCML electrification in the garage, so I will look it out later, but I think from memory that when my patch included Grange to North Rode it was AEI-GRS equipment. It definitely had a lot of Trafford Park manufactured M series relays around.

Dear Sir. I read with interest your comments about the Stoke to Etruria section, as I am modelling that area. I am wondering if you can help me. I visited Stoke box in the 90,s and took a photo of the panel. Unfortunately the flash from my camera washed out a lot of detail. I am trying to identify the switch (point) numbers as displayed on the diagram and on every point motor. Do you have any details of these. I am also thinking of approaching Bombardier (formerly ML engineering here in Plymouth to see if they have any archives of the 1960,s upgrade in that area.

Kind regards. Keith Simons.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Unfortunately I don't have a plan with the point numbers, only the signals. 

I think that the Signalling Record Society have a copy of the original numbering in their archive.