RMweb Gold Happy Hippo Posted October 12, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 12, 2011 Having alluded to a 'quickie' OO layout in another thread, I'm in a typical situation regarding space, so the railway has to be portable. I'm interested in trying to operate the points and signals through a mechanical lever frame as opposed to servos solenoids or motors. My initial thought is to use wire in the tube, and use electrical chocolate box connectors to connect the wires together at the baseboard joints. I don't see this as being too onerous a task, as most of the points and signals are on one base board with the far end of the passing loop and it's associated signalling, on the next but one board, so I'd be 'through piping' the wire and tube, and only making a few connections every time the layout is made up or broken down for storage. Before I start, I'm curious as to whether other members of this forum have tried this method before, and whether it has been successful. Or do you have a simpler or better idea? Regards Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
br2975 Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Richard . I've been working on a means to activate the points on 'Coldblow Lane' and this is what I've come up with. . The main 'point rod' is 5/32" brass rod, easily available at Eileen's Emporium, Antics etc. . The rod runs beneath the board held in place by chocolate block connectors, which are tightened slightly, but allow the rod to move back and forth with ease. . The rod emerges through the front fascia and will be fitted with ahandle/knob of sorts. . Near the point, a brass connector from a chocolate block is screwed tightly or soldered to the rod, with a wire that passes through a Peco (SPDT) accessory slide witch, through the baseboard and through the tie bar. . If you are using handbuilt pointwork, or 'filleted' Peco points with the over-centre spring removed, then an 'omega loop' can be fitted to the rod and anchored somewhere near the point. . I'm using up an old stock of Peco points on the current opus, before moving on to handbuilt stuff on the next layout. . The photos (poor, Im sorry) are of an experimental lash-up just to give the basic idea. Brian R Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Happy Hippo Posted October 13, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 13, 2011 Thanks for the reply Brian, That is very similar to what I had thought about doing. Like you I will now jury rig a test section to see if it works. For some reason, I've never used omega loops. I've always used a 'Z' bent into the wire instead. We should be able to have a chat about this in more detail at the Cardiff show. Regards Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted October 13, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 13, 2011 For some reason, I've never used omega loops. I've always used a 'Z' bent into the wire instead. That's because you don't like the deflection that omega loops introduce, Z bends don't have that problem Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
graeme3300 Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 M.T.A.V. (Model Tramway Association of Victoria) has evolved a simple method of operating points mechanically from below the baseboard using a modified brass hinge and 1/32in. piano wire, incorporating a 'Z' bend,to the lever frame/operating knobs (still to be finally decided which). The hinges in the photos are solid-drawn, 38mm long and 3/32in bore, with a smooth sliding fit for the tube. The available travel of the operating wire is about 8mm - more than enough - even with a brass sleeve to stiffen the bottom of the 1/32in. vertical wire connecting to the points. The hinges come with a brass hinge-pin which is easily knocked out to give two identical pieces, for about $AUD 1 each, say about 65p. For extra stiffness, the vertical wire passes completely though the brass tube and is well-soldered on both sides for strength. Also. if required, the vertical wire can be arranged outside the confines of the hinge itself. Please note that the vertical wire will be placed 180 degrees from what's in the photo when in place under baseboards! Another unexpected bonus is that the hinge bore is offset from the flat section enough that the unit could actually be mounted on a vertical sub-baseboard cross-member if necessary and still allow the vertical wire to lie parallel with it. The wire would have to be made slightly longer as well as the strengthening sleeve, but it increases the flexibility of the mech. Hopefully the attached sketch will make this easier to follow. Graeme Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike morley Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 I love mechanical point and signal operation and try to use it every time. BUT . . . My usual problem is run lengths, which can frequently be beyond the 18 inches that appears to be the "industry standard" for wire-in-tube operation. Wound curtain wires with piano wire innards are often suggested as a means of attaining longer runs but I've met with very limited success using that method. The problem there is the usually considerable difference between the inside diameter of the curtain wire and the outside diameter of whatever piano wire you intend using - piano wire that is thin enough to be user friendly being so much less than the inside diameter of the curtain wire that when you throw your point lever all the movement is taken up by the piano wire flexing inside the tube, with nothing being translated to movement at the far end. Piano wire thick enough to overcome that problem tends to be so substantial it is very nearly rigid and thereby causes a whole new set of problems. For some time I've been toying with the idea of torsion-bar operation - which would also make crossing baseboard joints merely tricky, rather than the downright difficult that is the case with wire-in-tube. I havent yet tried it, but those who have speak very highly of the system. I agree entirely with the comments about Z bends being better than Omega loops. I also love Graeme3300's use of hinges and will quite definitely be using them in future. A brilliant idea! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted October 13, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 13, 2011 I also love Graeme3300's use of hinges and will quite definitely be using them in future. A brilliant idea! If Michael D reads this thread he should be able to testify that some of Chris Hewitts layouts had points operated the exact same way, many years ago (devised by Mike T of our club - and we probably weren't the first - funny how you take things for granted and assume others know) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Happy Hippo Posted October 14, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 14, 2011 Again, thanks for all the information. Beast: Thanks for the reminder of why I prefer Z bends rather than omega loops.............They tend to push in a straight line! Lovely to find another use for hinges other than to join baseboards together. However, I think Mike is right when he states that crossing the baseboard joint(s) is the most difficult part of mechanical point and signal control. at present i am minded towards a separate bridging piece, The rods stopping short of the baseboard end and a fixed connector being fitted to the rod. A short length of rod is then passed through a hole in the baseboard end and is fastened to the fixed connectors. Obviously there is going to be quite a bit of play in the system if I'm not careful, but I'm hoping that any overthrow can be absorbed by a Z bend in the wire close to the point. I'm minded to have the signals weighed so the are held at stop (just like the real thing) and the rod merely pushes an angle plate that lifts the weight and 'pulls' the signal off. I saw a design like this for UQ signals some time back in an edition of RM, so I'm not inventing anything new or exciting. At present my estimate is that I'll need a run of about 8-10 feet max from the lever frame to the stop signal just before the point for the loop at the down end. Personally I think I'll have more problems with the three signals and very little problem with the single point. Once my son has got his car out of my garage (it's up on blocks having a gearbox change) I'll set up a test rig and see how it performs. Regards Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted October 14, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 14, 2011 I'm minded to have the signals weighed so the are held at stop (just like the real thing) and the rod merely pushes an angle plate that lifts the weight and 'pulls' the signal off. I saw a design like this for UQ signals some time back in an edition of RM, so I'm not inventing anything new or exciting. Many, many years ago I made a working model (4mm) of a home + distant signal with working mechanical slotting by attaching plasticine to the return end of the balance weight (ie the weighted end), using an invisible line, which returned the signal to danger under gravity, I then used a line from a lever to pull the balance weight off, all working prototypically. (The slotting just required getting the right amount of plasticine on each of the weights!) My version was not the most elegant but it worked and looked good, the lever even felt "real" as the slack in the line had to be taken up before the arm(s) moved. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Happy Hippo Posted October 14, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 14, 2011 Many, many years ago I made a working model (4mm) of a home + distant signal with working mechanical slotting by attaching plasticine to the return end of the balance weight (ie the weighted end), using an invisible line, which returned the signal to danger under gravity, I then used a line from a lever to pull the balance weight off, all working prototypically. (The slotting just required getting the right amount of plasticine on each of the weights!) My version was not the most elegant but it worked and looked good, the lever even felt "real" as the slack in the line had to be taken up before the arm(s) moved. I'm pretty sure the article in RM had a small brass weight in a tube attached to the base of the signal that returned the signal to danger in much the same way as you describe. What did you use for invisible line? My initial thought was to use some fine wire attached to the counterweight arm between the fulcrum point and the counterweight. Since the signal in question are all singletons, I doubt whether at normal viewing distances that the operating wire would be easily seen. I might have a bit more problems with the two brackets each with two signals on them. Regards Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted October 14, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 14, 2011 What did you use for invisible line? Fishing line iirc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
beeman Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 The wire I used is MIG welding wire, think about .65 mm, but very strong. Attached are 3 photos of the operating panel and u/s.. The levers are a simple latching design, the slot in the wooden panel determining the throw of each. It is necessary when operating to press down on the lever and move sideways slightly to clear its latch then release upwards. The mechanism to each turnout is based on a spring return at the turnout end. Some of these operate at around 2.5 meters from the lever. I discarded the wire in tube years back as too much friction on bends. On long runs I use small quadrants, Initially I tried one to see if they would work pulling over the piece of chromed tube to overcome the problem from the lever to horizontal u/s of the baseboard, it seemed ok so I carried on and developed the' maze' you see. Various designs are used for the turnout end dependent on which way I wanted it to be in the return position, ie spring pulling back. Quadrants and levers can be drilled with numerous wire holes so tension/radii can be altered as required.My baseboards are particle flooring and 22mm, this can be advantageous as the piano wire that goes to the turnout bar can flex so the u/s bit can move greater than the bar needs to move. Some of them needed to be adjusted after initial fitting but seemed to 'settle' and are generally work fine. Some of have the electrical connectors fitted so as to used for adjustment/setting up. My initial reason was cost of fitting all with point motors. I have also around a dozen wire operated using Ford door lock actuators, these needed to be electrical due to their locations. Along with quite a few peco units. Think around 65 all in all. Hope this helps along with the pics. Beeman Would add the 'bollards' the wire passes around are penny/mudguard washers with a piece of barrier 15mm water pipe smaller diameter of course screwed to the u/s of the baseboard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brightspark Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 What about using linkages as used by Aircraft Radio modellers? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chubber Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I love mechanical point and signal operation and try to use it every time. BUT . . . My usual problem is run lengths, which can frequently be beyond the 18 inches that appears to be the "industry standard" for wire-in-tube operation. Wound curtain wires with piano wire innards are often suggested as a means of attaining longer runs but I've met with very limited success using that method. The problem there is the usually considerable difference between the inside diameter of the curtain wire and the outside diameter of whatever piano wire you intend using - piano wire that is thin enough to be user friendly being so much less than the inside diameter of the curtain wire that when you throw your point lever all the movement is taken up by the piano wire flexing inside the tube, with nothing being translated to movement at the far end. Piano wire thick enough to overcome that problem tends to be so substantial it is very nearly rigid and thereby causes a whole new set of problems. For some time I've been toying with the idea of torsion-bar operation - which would also make crossing baseboard joints merely tricky, rather than the downright difficult that is the case with wire-in-tube. I havent yet tried it, but those who have speak very highly of the system. I agree entirely with the comments about Z bends being better than Omega loops. I also love Graeme3300's use of hinges and will quite definitely be using them in future. A brilliant idea! 2.4 mm strimmer line* fills up the 'hole' perfickly, and the screws in chocolate block locate very positively in it. £5 for metres and metres......it is also an insulator and with a zero coefficient of expansion. * This is the 'big-boys stuff for petrol strimmers and goes up to 3.4 locally... Hope this helps someone... Doug Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhall Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 What about using linkages as used by Aircraft Radio modellers? I've been having a trying time using this with bluepoint mechamisms and a Scalefour Soc. lever frame - I'm not quite decided if its's the combination of all 3 that is causing the problems, or that its fundementally flawed... see http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/11520-hamworthy-dorset-coast-c1988/page__view__findpost__p__204559 Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
beeman Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 What about using linkages as used by Aircraft Radio modellers? Seems to me that unless most can purchase EVERYTHING RTR and off the shelf the 'art' of making it yourself is almost dead. Beeman. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dukedog Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 I can't make any further suggestions other than the ones already contributed but I would like to pose a question to those in the know if I may. Are the Bluepoint actuators any good? Do they have any way of locking the point blades in position once set? The reason I ask is that my new project only uses one turnout and that is a copper clad built job with no over centre springing or position locking. would this unit then be suitable? Thanks in advance for any help and sorry to HH for barging in on your thread, I thought it better than starting a new topic for a simple question. Cheers! Frank Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Frank, the BluePoint manual point motors are very similar to Tortoise in operation. They're designed to work without over centre springing and with the fulcrum adjusted correctly, should hold the switch rails firmly against the stock rails. Here's a link to the manufacturers website.... New Rail Models. There are a few pages on there describing how to install them. This is a plug and play solution to manually operated points, if you don't like the idea of faffing around with a DIY method. The BullFrog is a similar type of manual motor, but made from wood and comes as a kit (ready made was previously available too). That might be better for those who like to feel they've (sort of) made something themselves, but unfortunately it's not on sale on this side of the pond. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhall Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Are the Bluepoint actuators any good? Do they have any way of locking the point blades in position once set? The reason I ask is that my new project only uses one turnout and that is a copper clad built job with no over centre springing or position locking. would this unit then be suitable? Frank, The blue points are intended to be used as you suggest, they are built around a switch that does the electrical switching, and which also provides the mechanical springing to hold the points across - there is a watch out (that I haven't hit yet, but I am worried about) once they pass center they actually crash across quite hard, I'm a bit worried that they might reduce the life of a hand-built point quite a lot? J Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Happy Hippo Posted October 18, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 18, 2011 Frank, If you only have the one point, then a gem type point lever and either an omega loop or a Z bend in the wire will do all you want at a fraction of the cost of a tortoise type motor, and it is as gentle as you want it to be. (Don't forget the microswitch for the crossing nose polarity change) Regards Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhall Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Seems to me that unless most can purchase EVERYTHING RTR and off the shelf the 'art' of making it yourself is almost dead. Beeman. So buying MIG welding wire is real modelling but buying polyethyene wire in tube isn't? Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Happy Hippo Posted October 18, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 18, 2011 Frank, Re my suggestion about gem point levers. I was talking about the lever frame rather than the individual point levers which are not self locking. I can send you a picture or a drawing of the self locking levers I use outdoors. They are easily scaled down. The individual point levers you could use, if the still make them, are the old Wrenn style of lever. (Showing my age there) Regards Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Hi Frank, have used Blue Point switch machines on my last three layouts all with copper clad constructed point work with absolutely no problems. Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dukedog Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Thanks all for help with my question, much appreciated and sorry again HH for hijacking your thread. Looks like the Bluepoint will be the answer. I need 2, I forgot I will have a working catch point as well. Richard, I do know the Gem lever frame, TBH I had forgot about those. Cheers Frank. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike knowles Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 , I'm a bit worried that they might reduce the life of a hand-built point quite a lot? J We have used Blue Point Actuators for a number of years now on our club layout Battersby North End which was built using C&L rail and chairs on ply sleepers. The actuators are linked to home made point levers by 3mm dia steel rod (approx - needs to be thick enough not to flex under compression). The rods are connected to the point actuators and levers using the innards from 5 amp chocolate block type electrical connectors. To make installation easier and allow subsequent adjustment the rods were installed as two separate lengths joined together by two sections of the afore mentioned electrical connectors. This has provided a very reliable system with a nice positive feel as you operate the levers. No attempt has been made to group the point levers together, the layout is only 12 feet long and operation provides a bit of exercise for the operators! The attached diagram hopefully describes the installation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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