Jump to content


Google Ads are only seen by non-members of RMweb - Create an RMweb account and you'll only receive modelling ads.

Photo
- - - - -

Modern Signaling Help / Advice





  • Please log in to reply
18 replies to this topic

#1 mwrosebury2000

mwrosebury2000

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 150 posts

Posted 07 April 2012 - 11:29

Could all you signal experts advise me on where I have gone right / wrong with the signalling diagram and how I should amend it to make it more prototypical.
The main lines will be extended in the future & the fake lines are to make it look like it goes to more places & provide a better operational time table.
The layout is a modern layout based in North West England.
**Yes I’m aware that it goes in a big loop with lines crossing at 90 degrees, which isn’t prototypical**

Many thanks in advance Marktrain signal diag.png

Google Ads are only seen by non-members of RMweb - Create an RMweb account and you'll only receive modelling ads.

#2 Madcaravanner

Madcaravanner

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 261 posts

Posted 07 April 2012 - 13:30

Have you not been to Newark ?? there is a flat 90 degree crossing there so yes it is prototypical although I would make all lines cross each other there too not a 2 & 1

Modern signalling has a lot of LED two aspect lights which still give double amber and also they use a flashing amber to indicate a high speed point set for the line (not certain how you would wire that one) at least one and sometimes 2 sections before the crossing


Have you thought of maybe another single direction line making your main layout have an UP a DOWN (of which one could also be bi-directional) and a Bi-Directional line that would be quite interesting to operate as you could run local services (153/150-2/158/170/etc) as well as main line express services as well as through block freight/intermodals

#3 beast66606

beast66606

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 9,480 posts
  • LocationCrewe and North an South thereof and Anglian

Posted 07 April 2012 - 13:43

Modern signalling has a lot of LED two aspect lights which still give double amber and also they use a flashing amber to indicate a high speed point set for the line (not certain how you would wire that one) at least one and sometimes 2 sections before the crossing


[pedant / major annoyance mode]
Railway signals do not show AMBER they show yellow
[/pedant / major annoyance mode]

Flashing aspects are used to give a driver advanced warning that the route is set for a divergence and it is clear to at least the first signal beyond the divergence, they can be double yellow followed by single yellow (both flashing) if the signalling allows.
  • Like x 3

#4 Madcaravanner

Madcaravanner

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 261 posts

Posted 07 April 2012 - 13:48

[pedant / major annoyance mode]
Railway signals do not show AMBER they show yellow
[/pedant / major annoyance mode]

Flashing aspects are used to give a driver advanced warning that the route is set for a divergence and it is clear to at least the first signal beyond the divergence.


:D no need for Pedant mode - - - wrong light system but the meaning is understood - - do you know the maximum number of sections that can be set like this ?? I know of two sets of crossings at Chesterfield that show flashing aspects 2 sections prior and wondered if that was the maximum

#5 beast66606

beast66606

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 9,480 posts
  • LocationCrewe and North an South thereof and Anglian

Posted 07 April 2012 - 13:52

Could all you signal experts advise me on where I have gone right / wrong with the signalling diagram and how I should amend it to make it more prototypical.
The main lines will be extended in the future & the fake lines are to make it look like it goes to more places & provide a better operational time table.
The layout is a modern layout based in North West England.
**Yes I’m aware that it goes in a big loop with lines crossing at 90 degrees, which isn’t prototypical**

Many thanks in advance Mark


Mark,

What are you trying to portray at S17 and S19 ? (Presumably the shunt at S19?)

I would make all signals at least 3-aspect - removing some issues where you have possible green onto red aspects.

Loose S5 and add an extra feather to S4.
S16 needs a feather if you want the bi-di capability.

The TMD line and the "S20" line need trap points (although if the loop is goods only they could be omitted, the likelihood is they would be provided) as do the two sidings on the inside

S11 would have cats eyes (shunt) with a stencil for the sidings, not a feather.

Alter and repost the plan and I can further advise if any more changes are required.
  • Like x 1

#6 beast66606

beast66606

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 9,480 posts
  • LocationCrewe and North an South thereof and Anglian

Posted 07 April 2012 - 13:54

do you know the maximum number of sections that can be set like this ?? I know of two sets of crossings at Chesterfield that show flashing aspects 2 sections prior and wondered if that was the maximum


Only the double and/or the single yellows flash.
(Flashing greens on the ECML are nothing to do with junction signalling.)
  • Like x 1

#7 mwrosebury2000

mwrosebury2000

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 150 posts

Posted 07 April 2012 - 17:25

Thanks for the replies,

I will amend the drawing and post an update when I have more time…

If I drop the shunt signal at S17 - if the track was clear trains could be held at S19?
S19 wouldn’t need a shunt signal as trains going into the siding could pass on a caution if I made it 3 aspect? The siding will be an old line that once led into a tunnel (now bricked up).
Trains leaving S12 & 13 would be leaving a station platform so would this have an impact on the signal type for S11?
Indeed I intend putting trap points on the TMD line and S20 to protect the main lines.
The only reason the fake line has got any bi running is because it doesn’t go anywhere and will be difficult to reach, it will be hidden by a tunnel or similar and I’m going to use the rule of it isn’t seen so it doesn’t happen so I’m thinking of getting rid of S5, as S5 would hold a train over the main lines anyway.

Thanks Madcaravanner, I was in two minds if I should make all lines cross and now I shall.

Hope this helps, Mark

#8 beast66606

beast66606

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 9,480 posts
  • LocationCrewe and North an South thereof and Anglian

Posted 07 April 2012 - 17:56

Thanks for the replies,

I will amend the drawing and post an update when I have more time…

If I drop the shunt signal at S17 - if the track was clear trains could be held at S19?
S19 wouldn’t need a shunt signal as trains going into the siding could pass on a caution if I made it 3 aspect? The siding will be an old line that once led into a tunnel (now bricked up).
Trains leaving S12 & 13 would be leaving a station platform so would this have an impact on the signal type for S11?
Indeed I intend putting trap points on the TMD line and S20 to protect the main lines.
The only reason the fake line has got any bi running is because it doesn’t go anywhere and will be difficult to reach, it will be hidden by a tunnel or similar and I’m going to use the rule of it isn’t seen so it doesn’t happen so I’m thinking of getting rid of S5, as S5 would hold a train over the main lines anyway.


S11 would more than likely be a 4-aspect with a theatre rather than feathers.

S17 shows a shunt and a 2-aspect signal ... that's the clarification required.

#9 mwrosebury2000

mwrosebury2000

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 150 posts

Posted 08 April 2012 - 09:30

I’ve been thinking about your comments and have amended the drawing like so S11 has a theater, S17 is just a cation / danger 2 aspect (no shunt)
I'm not the best with computers and don't know how to upload the new drawing.

Mark


#10 Grovenor

Grovenor

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,222 posts

Posted 08 April 2012 - 12:12

I'm not the best with computers and don't know how to upload the new drawing.

Maybe the same way you uploaded the first one??
Regards
Keith

#11 kevinlms

kevinlms

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,138 posts
  • LocationLaunching Place, Australia

Posted 08 April 2012 - 12:44

Not sure I understand the track plan.

If a train is running anti-clockwise around the loop - S9, S8, S7 etc. It would seem that the only place it can go is to S14.

The only way to continue onto the 'Main Lines', is to shunt over the crossover & reverse at S3, then the train can go via S4 or S18. However since there is no run round facility, only MU's can do this.

Perhaps another (trailing) crossover is missing at the LH end of the station?


Kevin Martin

#12 mwrosebury2000

mwrosebury2000

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 150 posts

Posted 08 April 2012 - 15:42

Good point Kevin, I have amended the drawing to show this
however I’m not sure how trains will cope with this… I’ve heard of people
having problems when trains run from one set of double points into another set
of points.


train signal diag 1.2.png

Also I have figured out how to put drawings into a reply.
Mark

#13 The Stationmaster

The Stationmaster

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 29,319 posts

Posted 08 April 2012 - 16:00

Looking much better - just a couple of comments -
S19 should be 3 aspect or at least capable of showing a yellow proceed aspect as it reads to a signal capable of showing red, plus a sub to read to the siding. S14 and 215 should also be capable of showing yellow for the same reason.

S18 should really, I think, have a sub aspect to read towards the shed and very definitely not a full green.

#14 mwrosebury2000

mwrosebury2000

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 150 posts

Posted 09 April 2012 - 06:11

Daft question, whats a sub aspect?

#15 The Stationmaster

The Stationmaster

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 29,319 posts

Posted 09 April 2012 - 11:31

Daft question, whats a sub aspect?


One of those things that shows two white lights when 'off' and it's mounted below the main aspect so it is subsidiaery to it and called a subsidiary or 'sub' aspect' (i'.e. it's basically a ground position light signal but mounted on the main signal post and it doesn't show red as the main signal does that). Here are a couple of pics -

NN35 & 51  route& stencil indicators.jpg

Edited by The Stationmaster, 09 April 2012 - 11:33 .


#16 mwrosebury2000

mwrosebury2000

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 150 posts

Posted 11 April 2012 - 19:40

Ah I understand now, just wasn't sure of the terminology thats all.

Mark

#17 beast66606

beast66606

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 9,480 posts
  • LocationCrewe and North an South thereof and Anglian

Posted 11 April 2012 - 19:56

As Mike says S24 / S25 need to be 3-aspect as does the one on the platform, S19 and S20

#18 Grovenor

Grovenor

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,222 posts

Posted 11 April 2012 - 20:12

As Mike says S24 / S25 need to be 3-aspect as does the one on the platform, S19 and S20

Have I missed something or are you looking at a different plan to the rest of us?
I can't see any S24 or S25, and S20 is a shunt out of the siding.
Don't seem to be mentioned in Mike's post either.
Puzzled
Keith

#19 beast66606

beast66606

    Member


  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 9,480 posts
  • LocationCrewe and North an South thereof and Anglian

Posted 11 April 2012 - 20:21

Typo - not exactly hard to work out which signals I was referring to of course, there aren't many signals which aren't 3-aspect.
  • Like x 1







Google Ads are only seen by non-members of RMweb - Create an RMweb account and you'll only receive modelling ads.