two tone green Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Sure is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
deltic17 Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 That is a lovely picture - they always look better in proper sunlight - one other slight modification which is needed is to do with the bodywork below the front connecting doors - it is currently too deep - it needs approx 1mm taking off - which should be easy - and will also help any potential bodywork rubbing/catching bogies problem on any uneven track/gradients. As discussed elsewhere - it's a shame the angle of the front cab windows isn't going to be changed by Heljan - I also think the shape of the front central window looks slightly wrong also - it looks a bit high to me which I think affects the cab roof shape as highlighted by others earlier in this thread. Hopefully the bit behind the disc headcodes can be corrected too (you need to look at Brian's earlier pictures to see this) to look like the ones which house the red tail lights. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomstaf Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Hi Brian, Sorry to rain on everyones parade but there are some fundamental errors on the 40. Very frustratingly this seems to be a recurrent topic on Heljan’s 7mm range, which is stacking up quite heavily now. I don’t know if the errors are due to lack of research, or something is going wrong in the design office, or untrained eyes are checking before cutting metal, but surely this can be addressed. Even more so when HJ are asking around £600 for the model and there is a wealth of information out there which they can draw from. Perhaps you’d be kind enough to pass on these errors so we don’t get yet another bodged model. The cab front: The nose should be a continuous curve unlike the 3 angles with rounded corners which they seem to have created.That’s why the lamps on the front should (which should be on the corner of the nose) look rather odd. The windscreens need more space between them and less height between their tops and the roof line. The tapering of the nose should start at the back of the cab door, not the front of it. The door looks too high, and so the cab step has been squashed and lost its correct rounded oblong shape. The sand box on the bogie seems to have been elongated making it the wrong shape. The box section is too deep and the filler cap is now oval as opposed to a perfect circle. See the pics to illustrate the deficiencies. The prototype photos come from: Cheers Tom Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
deltic17 Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 Further to my comment above about the front and the bodywork beneath the doors - looking at more and more pictures - the problem would actually be solved better (to correct my original idea) if the 2 connecting doors were extended down by a further 1mm or so (to reduce the gap at the bottom) and the bodywork extended downwards (probably by another 1mm?) all the way around on the section from the connecting doors round the front corner of the loco to the point where it approaches the cab steps. Hopefully such a modification wouldn't compromise the bodywork catching the bogies on the model during running. Good observations tomstaf - I still think the biggest problem that hits me with the model is connected to your no.2 - maybe if they could reduce the height of the central window (it's too high at present) and lower the driver and 2nd man's front window slightly at the same time that would allow for the extra bodywork above the windscreens as you suggest. That central window definitely looks too high to me at present and spoils the overall look big time. For me that is a CRITICAL change that needs to be made. Haven't they raised the headcode box in the Western so hopefully they can reduce the height of the windows here! I think it is not helped by the fact that when viewed side on the windows are too close to the vertical - their previous class 37 was perfect in that area! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverstreak Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 If none of the aforementioned errors are rectified before release in 2014 it gives plenty of time for Mr Harvey to design a new front window etch. I would have thought though that the side door depth could be easily rectified post purchase but I would have to live with the incorrect narrowing of sides to the nose issue plus the roof curvature error I've too many steam outline to build to want to do a kit Class 40 so the Heljan one will do for me Regards Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Why not Shawplan? At least you will know it's been measured up from a real loco rather than a vague guess. Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fay Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Pete has done some nice parts for the existing Heljan range so Im sure he will oblige. He has just done some superb plates for my turn table. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
deltic17 Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Pete has done some wonderful etches for various Heljan diesels - but correcting that front window profile is virtually impossible with the current design/mouldings as I see it. I can just about live with the other faults but that big centre window at the wrong angle to the vertical presently spoils it for me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverstreak Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 If the windows are too big surely a replacement etch with smaller more accurate size windows and a greater surround would fix that. If the current side profile /rake of the test models windscreen is too vertical it would be cause for concern. However if you can fix that on Bachmann Class 37 using a shawplan etch I would have thought it cant be anymore difficult with this Class 40. Anyway we have over a year and a half to prepare for its release Regards Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
deltic17 Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Silverstreak - the problem is the 2nd one unfortunately which causes concern - the side on view of the windscreen is too vertical and according to Brian, Heljan are not planning changing it - hopefully with Brian's help they will be able to lower the windows a little along the lines as suggested by tomstaf as that will help somewhat. As you say a replacement etch would be popular as a last resort but I really think Heljan need to get it corrected at their end in the 1st place. I understand they've raised the headcode box in the Western? so hopefully they can lower the windows a bit with the Whistler. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomstaf Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 I tend to think correction in this case is equivalent to serious rebuilding based on the model being paraded around. However, whilst there may be a number of avenues which no doubt will improve the deficiencies, the fact that non HJ remedies are on our minds already is worrying. The root cause needs addressing: Heljan really need to ensure their products are far closer to the prototypes they're trying to represent. It's not too hard these days given the amount of research material available, CAD to help make corrections more easily, tools to make things accurately, people with specialist knowledge (like Brian) smoothing the process. So is the advice they're being given being ignored or is it not being researched? Unless this gets sorted we're ending up with another £600 model tooled with fundamental errors. When HJ's models were cheaper they were competitive against the alternatives. Suddenly a JLTRT kit (which takes time to build, but not too much) becomes more cost effective and an all round better model compared to what HJ may offer! As things stand at the moment I know which avenue I'll be whistling up Cheers Tom Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
deltic17 Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 tomstaf - you are so right in what you say - I spoke to the Heljan guys at Warley last month during my first look at the class 40. They basically said have a look, give us your feedback (via Brian on here seems to be the main way) and we'll correct/adjust it. It all sounds so simple but the big problem is they make the basic mould to start with (which it seems can't be corrected) so if they make errors (as with the front windows in particular on the class 40) we are stuck with them. It's unlikely to appear before Spring 2014 assuming the usual delays I would predict so why can't they have another go at getting it correct in the 1st place?? I love my existing Heljan locos but these errors are becoming increasingly frustrating - we are about to get a class 31 which is somewhat too square at the front and now we have a class 40 with front windows at the wrong angle to the vertical heading our way which makes them look too big/high. Why can't it be corrected? £600 is a lot of money. I started in O guage to have superior models but it seems I'd have been better off on this occasion buying the Hornby Railroad version & saving £550 or so in the process. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Phil Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 That moulding of the class 40 looks pretty good to me. If I were modelling "O" i'd have no problem at all with a Heljan example of two. Granted they made a mess of the cab of the Brush 4, and I don't think the 31 is spectacular, but this 40 certainly looks the part to my critical eyes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomstaf Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 tomstaf - you are so right in what you say - I spoke to the Heljan guys at Warley last month during my first look at the class 40. They basically said have a look, give us your feedback (via Brian on here seems to be the main way) and we'll correct/adjust it. It all sounds so simple but the big problem is they make the basic mould to start with (which it seems can't be corrected) so if they make errors (as with the front windows in particular on the class 40) we are stuck with them. It's unlikely to appear before Spring 2014 assuming the usual delays I would predict so why can't they have another go at getting it correct in the 1st place?? I love my existing Heljan locos but these errors are becoming increasingly frustrating - we are about to get a class 31 which is somewhat too square at the front and now we have a class 40 with front windows at the wrong angle to the vertical heading our way which makes them look too big/high. Why can't it be corrected? £600 is a lot of money. I started in O guage to have superior models but it seems I'd have been better off on this occasion buying the Hornby Railroad version & saving £550 or so in the process. I agree entirely. I don't understand why they're so keen to show off a production model, which is complete bar a few detail alterations they might make, so far in advance of the actual release date. I send HJ a similar picto mail about the 31 and was told not to worry as it was only a pre production model. I tried having a chat at Warley but they weren't receptive. Seems odd as I thought the point of a trade stand is to engage with your customers. I can only hope that Brian has more success at getting them to listen. Releasing production models can only damage their prospective sales when people see the issues and discuss them. Cheers Tom Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomstaf Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 That moulding of the class 40 looks pretty good to me. If I were modelling "O" i'd have no problem at all with a Heljan example of two. Granted they made a mess of the cab of the Brush 4, and I don't think the 31 is spectacular, but this 40 certainly looks the part to my critical eyes. Hi Phil, Are you planning on buying 2 for display or just thinking that you would buy 2 if you did model O gauge? Cheers Tom Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian daniels Posted January 1, 2013 Author Share Posted January 1, 2013 Here you are, pick the bones out of it now I have painted in green with full yellow end. It will get weathered as it's a bit bright like this. In the last picture you can see that Heljan have done the pipework behind tjhe windows as a raised moulding. Unfortunatly the pipework is not raised very much and I struggled to paint it (and photograph it this morning!) The pipework on the cab bulkheads is raised nicely so you can paint that ok, I just forgot to take a picture to show it. I an guessing the Heljan will do the cab interior in grey for blue and cream for green and if you want it picked out then you will have to get your paintbrushes out! Well it will be at Bristol so you can have close look. I am now awaiting the second sample with a few mods so I can paint that a proper colour, BR Blue! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 Very nice, Hurry up Bristol. See you at the show Brian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 Hi Brian Have any of the errors Tom picked up on been fixed? It doesnt look like they have Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomstaf Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 You've done a nice job on the paintwork Brian Do you know if HJ will make any mods to the production ones? Cheers Tom Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian daniels Posted January 2, 2013 Author Share Posted January 2, 2013 This is still that first light green one that I put on here earlier so the discrepancy's are still here. The roof hatch on the nose needs raising and the lip under the nose door is due a re-shape. A couple of little details (rivets etc) need adding. Radiator side grill needs a bit of work on them. That's all I can remember of the top of my head, I am sure there was a bit more. We will get a second sample in due coarse but we are into Chinese New Year shutdowns aren't we? Mind you there's no rush, it's not due out until 2014! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 I am sure there was a bit more. Erm just a bit. If you read toms message its fair to say the cabs are almost completely wrong. Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian daniels Posted January 2, 2013 Author Share Posted January 2, 2013 As you probably have noticed I do not comment much on the pros and cons of these RTR models, or kits to be honest, if I don't like something I get on and modify it or live with it. There are more important things in my life to worry about. All model manufacturers do the very best they can, within a budget no doubt. I do not know what the limit is on what can be re-tooled on a large moulding but the larger manufacturers could probably re-do a complete body tooling but I doubt the smaller ones could. A couple of comments that Tom quotes are not quite true. Just looking at my "flat" pictures does not show every curve and angle to the best advantage. I will see you at Bristol Tom and have a chat. Back to modelling now, correcting and improving all these wrong models! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 Are you not 'advising' Heljan Brian? That's the impression I got Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian daniels Posted January 2, 2013 Author Share Posted January 2, 2013 And as the saying goes though "you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 It must be so frustrating for you Brian - they ask for your opinion but then go ahead and produce lemons. I suppose its no different to how people pointed out the numerous clangers on the 4mm scale 86 at cad stage only for them to ignore them all. Makes you wonder why they bother asking TBH. Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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