Dale Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 Hi Folks, I have just been scanning over eHattons for Bachmann suburban's and it seem's I have the choice of Maroon or Crimson livery's. Can any one explain where and when each one came about? BR Maroon followed on from Blood and Custard as a standard as far as i know but the crimson has thrown me a little... Sorry for a question which I am sure every man and his dog knows the answer but still relatively new to the world of railways. Cheers, Dale. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 Suburban stock as far as I know didn't carry Blood and Custard, the crimson livery is the one they carried at this time (the railways were nationalised in 1948 and this was the standard livery although it would take some time to be applied to all vehicles), and some were still carrying it well into the 1960s (photo ref: Class 40 at Pickering 1965 with Crimson Thompson CL - photographer Murrary Brown), although the Maroon came in iabout 1956 when a move was made back to regional liveries. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale Posted November 8, 2012 Author Share Posted November 8, 2012 Ahh, so crimson on suburban's was the standard when crimson and cream was about on Mk1's etc. So for a layout set in the late 50's I am sure both would have been seen running side by side, with crimson only being repainted when the carriages went into the shop...? I was under the false impression the crimson may have been a regional livery like the southern's green or GWR Chocolate and Cream of post nationalisation. Cheers Boris. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Taz Posted November 8, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 8, 2012 Ahh, so crimson on suburban's was the standard when crimson and cream was about on Mk1's etc. So for a layout set in the late 50's I am sure both would have been seen running side by side, with crimson only being repainted when the carriages went into the shop...? Got it in one Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 One supplementary point: when maroon was introduced in 1956 non-corridor coaches were not lined. They started to receive lining in 1959. I don't think Bachmann offer lined maroon at the moment but I seem to recall that it looked rather muddy when they did. There were still plenty of unlined maroon suburbans running around in 1962 and, as Boris states, crimson held on quite a while. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
6959 Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 Crimson and maroon colours cause confusion even for people with good colour vision. Generally, maroon is slightly darker brownish purple red when compared to crimson. Some definitions: crim·son (krmzn) n. A deep to vivid purplish red to vivid red. [Middle English cremesin, from Old Spanish cremesín, Old Italian cremesino or Medieval Latin cremesnus, all from Arabic qirmizy, from qirmiz, kermes insect; see kermes.] crimson adj. ma·roon 2 (m-rn) n. A dark reddish brown to dark purplish red. [French marron, chestnut, from Italian marrone.] The model railway manufacturers take some liberties due to the need to reduce production cost. For example, the Airfix B-set coaches are darker than the later Hornby versions. The Airfix crimson seems to be very similar to LMS crimson lake used on LMS coaches in the same year and may been the same paint specification. Crimson was the description used for BR suburban coaches from nationalisation until about 1956. Some early repaints were lined but most were plain red unlined. When maroon was adopted from circa 1956 the standard scheme was maroon with lining on all coaches except the regional SR and WR variations. Colour description is a science that keeps many people employed in the paint trade and printing inks but some info here: Munsell colour tree (not to be confused with Mansell {wooden railway wheels} or Maunsell {Southern Railway CME} Link http://en.wikipedia....ll_color_system Link http://www.jaimetrea...hart-system.htm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
clecklewyke Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 Were Gresley suburban coaches lined in BR days? It's difficult to tell from B&W photos. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrman Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 Officially the correct colour for all non-corridor and parcels stock from mid-1949 to 1956 was unlined Carmine .This is often (usually ?) incorrectly referred to as Crimson but in fact was a very different colour , being a much lighter , brighter red. The old Hornby Dublo BR Mk1s carried a very good rendition of this colour. Airfix, Mainline, Replica, Bachmann and Hornby have all got this colour wrong, using a near match to BR Maroon (all their versions of the Cream are also too dark and too "brownish"-again refer to HD ). Referral to some of the BR steam era colour albums by the likes of Atlantic Press et al will clearly show the difference between Carmine and Crimson. Hope this helps. regards Rod Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 I believe the use of the word "carmine" is down to J N Maskelyne, sometime editor or the Model Railway News. The official announcement of the new liveries reported in the Railway Observer of February 1949 used the expression "crimson lake" but the relevant British Standard desribed the shade of red used as "crimson", which is not the same! Chris. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 Were Gresley suburban coaches lined in BR days? It's difficult to tell from B&W photos. I'm not sure if any of them survived long enough to have lined Maroon applied. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
6959 Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 car·mine [kahr-min, -mahyn] noun 1. a crimson or purplish-red color. 2. a crimson pigment obtained from cochineal. extracted from dictionary.reference.com/browse/carmine Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
6959 Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 External link to page with various carmine colour samples. http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmine_%28color%29 What you actually see will depend on the colour calibration of your monitor but it shows a wide range of reds which will give an idea of the gradation from bright to dark. Some of the red and cream Hornby MK1 coaches in the later sets [since 1997] were more purplish than other Hornby BR coaches. Carmine is said to resemble dried blood but I am not suggesting anyone try this at home. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
6959 Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 Crimson version of post #12 http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
6959 Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 Maroon version of posts 12 and 13: http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maroon_%28colour%29 If you study the pages you may come to the conclusion that a very similar red ocurs in all three colour charts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium BR60103 Posted November 9, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 9, 2012 I saw one article that suggested that some different shades of red stemmed from whether the undercoat was grey or brown. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrman Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 I guess we can argue ad infinitum about the terminology used to describe these colours , but the main point is that it doesn't matter whether you call them Carmine , Crimson or Maroon the fact is that while the latter two are redder or browner variants of each other the former is a very different shade of red . It is a lot lighter and "brighter" than the other two - a difference that is clearly visible in contemporary photos .Again take a look at Hornby Dublo coaches - they were produced while the prototype livery was still being applied - and they got it pretty right ! BR60103 Yes your point is correct - at least as far as "lake" colours are concerned .Lake ( from the French "Lac" - or lacquer ) was an oil-based translucent paint - almost a coloured varnish - that allowed the undercoat to show through. So "Crimson Lake" applied over a Crimson undercoat gave a very different effect to "Crimson Lake" applied over a Purple brown undercoat. Trouble is when you start allowing for the effects of "weathering" and "ageing" all bets are off when comparing Maroon and Crimson - they are so close to start with! regards Rod Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 And of course with any red/brown paint they fade like hell when the sun hits them! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrman Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 That's one of the give-aways-Crimson/Maroon has a brown component in either the undercoat or the topcoat layers which tend to become dominant when the red begins to fade- in other words they "fade" to brown. "Blood" ("Carmine") on the other hand has no brown component and therefore tends to fade to a lighter , pinkish shade - which then as the amber colour of the oil-base starts to show through tends to an orangy tinge..As non-corridor stock had a longer cycle between repaints this "pinky-orange" shade tended to become quite pronounced with time - so if your picture shows a light pinky colour it's probably unlined "Blood" , if it looks dark it's probably unlined Maroon (1956-'59). So , if you're modelling non-corridor or parcels stock from 1949 to 1956 (and beyond) you should be using this light red- fading -to -pink -fading -to orangy-pink colour. We can't source a lot of the UK paints here-except Humbrol-so I can't recommend a colour, but Precision Paints et al should have it in their range. Good luck ! Rod Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 We never did get to the bottom of whether Gresley non-corridors were painted in Maroon or not and whether it was lined/unlined. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 There is one [more!] complicating factor. When crimson was introduced in 1949 lining was applied at waist level. In 1952 it was decided to discontinue that lining but needless to say it did not disappear overnight. There are photos of non-corridor stock in lined crimson on the Western as late as 1956 and it may be that it was found on other regions too. Chris. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted November 10, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 10, 2012 There is one [more!] complicating factor. When crimson was introduced in 1949 lining was applied at waist level. In 1952 it was decided to discontinue that lining but needless to say it did not disappear overnight. There are photos of non-corridor stock in lined crimson on the Western as late as 1956 and it may be that it was found on other regions too. Chris. Hi Chris The Russell GWR coaches books are littered with non-corridor coaches in crimson with lining, all taken late 1940s early 1950s. It is difficult to say whether the ex LMS lines of the LMR and ScR had coaches in crimson with lining as there were many LMS liveried coaches with BR markings at the time. Black and white photos do not clearly show which "red" the coaches are in. Sometimes you can tell when a crimson coach is next to a maroon one as the crimson one looks a little lighter. When BR changed to maroon for its coaching stock (except the SR and WR named expresses) the non-corridor stock was not lined at first as you have stated. Most of it was busily being withdrawn and replaced by DMUs so how much pre-nationalisation stock was repainted maroon and what proportion was lined is limited. I have found photos of LMS, and some GWR in this livery (or are they lined crimson?). I think I have found in the Harris LNER coach book a lined Gresley non-corridor coach as there appears to be light lines on the edge of the waist height beading. The same book has a Thompson coach in lined maroon. Colour photos of quad-arts being hauled by diesels indicate they are a dark red (maroon?) but not lined. It must be remembered that ex LNER pre grouping coaches were still being painted "brown" by Stratford as late as 1950 and many ended their service in this livery at the end of the 50s. Not being an expert I hope what I have written agrees with your findings. Clive Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
6959 Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 There is one [more!] complicating factor. When crimson was introduced in 1949 lining was applied at waist level. In 1952 it was decided to discontinue that lining but needless to say it did not disappear overnight. There are photos of non-corridor stock in lined crimson on the Western as late as 1956 and it may be that it was found on other regions too. Chris. How did this with-lining/ unlined plain red painting change coincide with the running number on the left end and its move to the right end without a suffix? When did it change from number on right end without suffix to right with a suffix? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckjumper Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 It must be remembered that ex LNER pre grouping coaches were still being painted "brown" by Stratford as late as 1950 and many ended their service in this livery at the end of the 50s. Indeed Clive, in fact of all the ex-GER carriages that made it to the late 50s, only the restaurant cars ever received crimson & cream and a few of those even gained the later maroon. All the photos I've seen show them sans lining. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 How did this with-lining/ unlined plain red painting change coincide with the running number on the left end and its move to the right end without a suffix? When did it change from number on right end without suffix to right with a suffix? The decision to move numbers from left to right and add suffixes dates from about the same time as the decision to drop lining, ie circa 1952. The change was not always made rapidly! BR standard coaches were supposed not to have suffixes but inevitably there were mistakes. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
92000 Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 We never did get to the bottom of whether Gresley non-corridors were painted in Maroon or not and whether it was lined/unlined. At least one Brake second was. We never did get to the bottom of whether Gresley non-corridors were painted in Maroon or not and whether it was lined/unlined. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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