Crimson or maroon

[wrman]

That's one of the give-aways-Crimson/Maroon has a brown component in either the undercoat or the topcoat layers which tend to become dominant when the red begins to fade- in other words they "fade" to brown. "Blood" ("Carmine") on the other hand has no brown component and therefore tends to fade to a lighter , pinkish shade - which then as the amber colour of the oil-base starts to show through tends to an orangy tinge..As non-corridor stock had a longer cycle between repaints this "pinky-orange" shade tended to become quite pronounced with time - so if your picture shows a light pinky colour it's probably unlined "Blood" , if it looks dark it's probably unlined Maroon (1956-'59).

So , if you're modelling non-corridor or parcels stock from 1949 to 1956 (and beyond) you should be using this light red- fading -to -pink -fading -to orangy-pink colour. We can't source a lot of the UK paints here-except Humbrol-so I can't recommend a colour, but Precision Paints et al should have it in their range. Good luck !

 

Rod

I've just had time to look on the net for the correct colours .Phoenix Precision Paints...P116 Crimson 1949-1955 , P303 Faded Cimson (P117 Cream ) . Humbrol acrylic Rail Paints RC423 Carmine ,( RC424 Cream).

Seems even the manufacturers can't decide what to call it!

 

Rod

[Il Grifone]

Oh no! we've resurrected this one!

 

AFAIK LMS crimson became maroon after WW II, though the actual shade is supposed not to have changed. The aforementioned Dublo coaches can be found in at least two shades of Maroon however (I've no idea whether this reflects actual LMS colours or just post war supply problems). After nationalisation BR, following much discussion, chose Crimson* as the coach colour - plain on non gangwayed stock and with cream upper panels on gangwayed stock. Hornby Dublo coaches are a very good match to the prototypes I remember. (Trix and Tri-ang coaches generally match, although the matt finish of the former appears to be slightly different.) Incidently the Dublo (introduced 1953, but certainly prepared previously) Dublo BR(M) coaches have LH numbers without and the BR(E) have RH with suffices. These were introduced to show responsibility for maintenance following the introduction of the MK I coaches. The all-over crimson applied to non-gangwayed stock (also NPCC) always appeared differently (to me at least - probably due to the large slap of solid colour). The Dublo non-gangwayed stock of 1954 appeared in a darker colour similar to the later maroon, which to my eyes at the time seemed to accord with the real coaches at the bottom of the garden, though there appears to be no record of a darker colour (photos do show some variation - possibly different undercoats or weathering?)

 

*The actual colour was a rather garish red colour.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hornby-Dublo-tin-plate-Maroon-Cream-Corridor-Brake-Coach-RN-M26133-not-boxed-/181024099285?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item2a25e08bd5

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-X-Hornby-DUBLO-3-RAIL-D13-BR-SUBURBAN-COACHES-EXCELLENT-/251183553128?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item3a7bb4da68

[cctransuk]

An old thread, I know, but for anyone who can't recall the transition period, https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/5674396853/in/album-72157626494806569/ is a good illustration of what I recall from the early 1960s.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Nearholmer]

Since BR was trying to buy standard ready-mixed paints, try having a look at BS381c 352 (pale cream), 540 (crimson) and 541 (maroon).

 

There are, of course, a trillion variables that affect colour perception, scale approximating to distance being only one, but I'm pretty sure these were the colours they were ordering into stores.

 

Kevin

[chrisf]

Thanks, Nearholmer.  I've never seen the British Standard numbers for cream and maroon quoted before.

 

Chris 

[jonny777]

This is a screen shot from Marsden Rail video Vol 1, and shows an A4 arriving at York with a southbound service.

 

The first vehicle is a BG in crimson and I realise the colour accuracy is not great, but it does show the big difference in shade between that and the Mk1 SK in maroon next to it.

 

 

[Nearholmer]

One thing that is very interesting to do, although I make no claim that it yields a definitive answer, is to compare colours that were applied by model suppliers at the time. Hornby 0 and Dublo, Trix, and Bassett Lowke being the obvious candidates. These makers must have been aiming for recognisability, if not exactitude.

 

Slightly frustratingly, in 0 gauge the Hornby "blood and custard" four-wheelers hold their colours very well, and show quite a dark crimson, whereas the Basset-Lowke "blood and custard" bogie coaches must be among the least colour-fast model coaches ever made! Mine are all subtly different colours, but what is interesting is that the crimson seems to have been significantly lighter, even at the outset, than the Hornby. Its almost as if one maker used the prototype colour (too dark on a model), and the other used a colour that looked right on a model (in fact, lighter than the real paint).

 

K

[jonny777]

The comparisons using internet searches are fascinating.

 

This 1959 photo on Robert Carroll's site

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/2173393750/

 

shows a much smaller contrast between the two liveried coaches, and I am assuming that the second coach is in authentic lined maroon.

[cctransuk]

Since BR was trying to buy standard ready-mixed paints, try having a look at BS381c 352 (pale cream), 540 (crimson) and 541 (maroon).

 

There are, of course, a trillion variables that affect colour perception, scale approximating to distance being only one, but I'm pretty sure these were the colours they were ordering into stores.

 

Kevin

 

Kevin,

 

I think that you are almost certainly correct - with the proviso that 540 CRIMSON could not have been particularly colour-fast as it assumed a MUCH more orangey shade later in life; (as we see in the various photos recently posted).

 

I did not make my earlier posting with the intention of reviving the debate; rather to show younger modellers that, by the late 1950s / early 60s, there was a distinct contrast between the two colours that is not always evident on RTR coaches.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Nearholmer]

Indeed, and it makes me wonder if whatever Bassett Lowke (actually their contractor, Precision Models) was using had the same form of pigment as what was used on the real thing (even if not the same start-colour), because the deterioration is very much the same: the crimson gets gradually lighter and more orange, while the cream gradually gets deeper. My tatty old, multi-hued, trains are actually quite realistic, in that sense!

 

Herewith a couple of coaches in use for clearance trials as I mock-up a new layout; not the colour variation.

 

Kevin

[Marshall5]

Oh no! we've resurrected this one!

 

AFAIK LMS crimson became maroon after WW II, though the actual shade is supposed not to have changed.

Sorry if it sounds pedantic but LMS 'red' was never "crimson" - it was "crimson lake", a totally different, darker colour.  AFAIK the perceived shade change from LMS 'crimson lake' to B.R. 'maroon' was more to do with the change in the colour of the undercoat.

Ray.

[laurenceb]

Sorry if it sounds pedantic but LMS 'red' was never "crimson" - it was "crimson lake", a totally different, darker colour.  AFAIK the perceived shade change from LMS 'crimson lake' to B.R. 'maroon' was more to do with the change in the colour of the undercoat.

Ray.

In the 1946 livery specs the colour was called maroon

[Nearholmer]

And, I'd bet it was maroon to BS381c 541, because any decent paint-maker could supply gallons of that, at a competitive price.

 

K

[SRman]

Sorry if it sounds pedantic but LMS 'red' was never "crimson" - it was "crimson lake", a totally different, darker colour.  AFAIK the perceived shade change from LMS 'crimson lake' to B.R. 'maroon' was more to do with the change in the colour of the undercoat.

Ray.

 

A good many years ago, a regular correspondent, R. C. 'Robbo' Ormiston-Chant (who was a bit of a character), posted quite long and informative letters to the model railway magazines. I recall one such letter to the editor that listed in detail the changes in undercoats and resultant perceptions from MR, through LMS, to BR days of crimson lake/maroon, very much confirming what you have said here.

[PenrithBeacon]

And, I'd bet it was maroon to BS381c 541, because any decent paint-maker could supply gallons of that, at a competitive price.

 

K

It was mixed in house.

[Nearholmer]

Was it? I thought it was bought-in.

 

I recall there being long and tediously detailed BR specs for paint, which were clearly focused on getting durability and finish right, but cited BS381c colours, and they were used for buying-in paint. Some of the versions around when I started work in the mid-70s, were "ancient", 1950s specs.

 

Personally, I was never involved with rolling-stock painting, but did get heavily into the painting of electrical kit, both "new at the factory" and as part of maintenance, and for transformers I can recall the detail ....... What we need is a rolling stock person who can remember the detail from the 1950s.

 

Kevin

[keefer]

just the way i understand it:

BR crimson = red

BR maroon = LMS crimson lake

 

anyway, i wonder if there was ever any 'dilution' of the paint going on, i,e chucking in some white/grey to make it go further?

 

also have heard of the undercoat making a significant difference to the shade, especially if the number of topcoats was limited - e.g. painting a vehicle with a red oxide undercoat versus a pink/grey/white/pale green undercoat

[PenrithBeacon]

Was it? I thought it was bought-in.

 

I recall there being long and tediously detailed BR specs for paint, which were clearly focused on getting durability and finish right, but cited BS381c colours, and they were used for buying-in paint. Some of the versions around when I started work in the mid-70s, were "ancient", 1950s specs.

 

Personally, I was never involved with rolling-stock painting, but did get heavily into the painting of electrical kit, both "new at the factory" and as part of maintenance, and for transformers I can recall the detail ....... What we need is a rolling stock person who can remember the detail from the 1950s.

 

Kevin

It was mixed in house by the LMS at least. By 1957 BR might have been buying it from outside suppliers, but Larry Goddard (coachman) got his from BR. I got the impression from his posts that it was mixed for him.

 

Regards

[unclebobkt]

Since BR was trying to buy standard ready-mixed paints, try having a look at BS381c 352 (pale cream), 540 (crimson) and 541 (maroon).

 

There are, of course, a trillion variables that affect colour perception, scale approximating to distance being only one, but I'm pretty sure these were the colours they were ordering into stores.  -  Kevin

 

        As an admitted non-expert I would have thought that BR., or what/whomever,  would have specified paints by their BS*. references for ease of ordering etc. etc.?

  * BS. here means 'British Standards.' - just to obviate any and possibly natural confusion

 

       .

[coachmann]

The MR and the LMS referred to thier loco and carriage colour as crimson lake. This was hard to obtain after WW2 and the LMS adopted a darker colour that could truly be called maroon. No less an authority than David Jenkinson worked with me on this when I was painting his models and those for the NRM. When BR initiated new liveries in 1956 it made every attempt to copy the pre-war LMS crimson lake, but then called in maroon...!

 

Backtrack to 1949, and the colour BR referred to as crimson for its coaching stock was nothing like crimson lake. This caused J.Maskelyne and Brian Haresnape to refer to it as carmine red and that is the colour 'we' modellers of the period grew up with, although 'blood' was often used when referring to blood & custard stock. For consistency in my coaching threads I use the terms carmine for non-corridor stock and carmine & cream for corridor stock. Both liveries lasted into the early 1960's, probably because BR was in no mood to repaint coaches it had marked down for a short future. In those days of winter storage, the best time to see carmine & cream in the early 1960's was in summer, usually adoring older wooden coaches. I recall seeing an LMS late Period I brake first in well preserved pre-1957 livery in the 1960's, so perhaps it had not seen a lot of usage and may have been lucky enough to have been stored under cover.

 

Returning to BR maroon, the L.M.Region must have looked after its coaching stock as it so often displayed a shiny crimson lake look except on dull winter days when it looked decidedly "maroon".  E.Region stock particularly wooden Gresley coaches looked maroon to me all the years round! The W.Region differed in that while it was famous for keeping its locos clean, coaches so very often looked faded and neglected as if the cleaning fluid had taken the shine off the paintwork. Obviously I can only go off what I saw in steam days strengthened by what I see on popular railway videos.

 

In contrast, the coaches I saw as a boy in LMS crimson lake or maroon (I wouldn't have known the difference at that age) had a brownish appearance, probably due to the yellowing effect of the old varnishes. DJ told me the NRM still used the old varnishes on its restored coaching stock and added that it was satisfying to see the blue-ish white on an LNWR 12-wheeler gradually taking on a greenish tinge as coaches had done in LNWR days.

[keefer]

Since BR was trying to buy standard ready-mixed paints, try having a look at BS381c 352 (pale cream), 540 (crimson) and 541 (maroon).

 

There are, of course, a trillion variables that affect colour perception, scale approximating to distance being only one, but I'm pretty sure these were the colours they were ordering into stores.

 

Kevin

Just to reference this, Parkin mentions "the red chosen [i.e crimson] was a match of colour 540 'crimson' in the BS specification 381c. The later change which ​was intended to ​match the LMS 'lake' was known as 'maroon' again by reference to the BS specification [no BS number given]".

 

Of interest, there is a fascimile of a C&W Engineer's Dept, Swindon work order​ dated 24/02/56 to supply paint to Gloucester RC&W Co. to paint 10 BTKs, W34859-868, "in the new Chocolate & Cream livery."

All that is specified is Primer (10 gallons), Brown undercoat (5), Cream undercoat (5), Brown enamel (5), Cream Enamel (5), Varnish (37), Black enamel (2), Black lining (3 pints), Grey undercoat (2 gallons). - i.e no BS spec given

Also as an indication of the intensive painting process, the schedule for a 'single colour body (crimson) finish' in 1949 is given as:

Day 1 - apply oxide prime

2 - stopping and filling

3- face down and touch in with primer

4 - face down

5 - 1st crimson undercoat

6 - 2nd crimson undercoat

7 - crimson body colour

8 - crimson glaze

9 - varnish

10 - line/transfer

11 - varnish

 

By comparison, the process in 1976 was:

1 - apply primer

2 - stopping and filling

3 - rubbing down filling

4 - surface

5 - undercoat

6 - finishing coat