140-ton 'Gunset' wagons

[Bernard Lamb]

The LNER built 2 Gunsets in 1938. 231273/4.

A different design but the same 140t capacity.

These were used in conjunction with a flat wagon from  the Transformer set A which held the muzzle end.

The breech would sit in a swivelling cradle in the well.

Above is from Peter Tatlow, LNER Wagons which includes photos but no drawing.

Bernard

 

With apologies to Jon who posted part of the info while I was looking it up.

Edited January 26, 2013 by Bernard Lamb

[Clive Mortimore]

My pre-nationalisation diagram books are a bit too fragile to scan, but looking at gunsets 9(i.e. wagons fro carrying gun barels)

 

The LNER seem to have two 140T Gunsets 231273 &4

 

The LMS have Dia 139 an (ex Midland? ) 105T Guntruck, code GTX 9696 and Dia 140 an (ex LNWR? ) 160T gun truck Code GTL no257881

 

Dia 139's parts appear elsewhere in the diagram book as dia41 (35T Ingot flat ex CR) with wagons 360 and 361 when fitted with a special girder becoming the breach unit of the 100T gunset, dia 41A a 35 ton truck adapted from the muzzle portion of GTX (and carrying 9696) and Dia 41B which is a 70T truck adapted from the Breach portion of GTX (so 2xdia41=dia41B and 41B+41A=139)

 

Jon

 

 

For those not as lucky as Jon to have pre nationalsiation diagram books the Midland Railway Gun Set diagram appears in Midland Wagons Vol2 by R J Essery, OPC, ISBN 86093 0416.

 

Both the MR and LNWR sets appear in LMS Wagons Vol2  by R J Essery, OPC , ISBN 86093 2559.

 

 In Peter Tatlow's first book on LNER wagons a photo of the LNER set appears. Lets hope a drawing is in Volume 4B of his series of LNER wagon books. My own interest in wagons does not go back to pre grouping (apart from the MR) did Peter Tatlow's volume of the CGR wagons in the LNER series have any information on their gun set?

[jonhall]

I quite fancy this 1/6th scale Dora railgun - lets face it, if your neighbours knew you had this in your garage they would think twice about blocking the drive

 

http://www.vonabt.co.uk/models/Dora/DoraBuild.htm

 

for an idea of the scale go to the galley and scroll along to about halfway to see the builder standing next to his creation.

 

Jon

[Clive Mortimore]

The LNER built 2 Gunsets in 1938. 231273/4.

A different design but the same 140t capacity.

These were used in conjunction with a flat wagon from  the Transformer set A which held the muzzle end.

The breech would sit in a swivelling cradle in the well.

Above is from Peter Tatlow, LNER Wagons which includes photos but no drawing.

Bernard

 

With apologies to Jon who posted part of the info while I was looking it up.

 

Done the same thing, sorry Bernard.

[Clive Mortimore]

I quite fancy this 1/6th scale Dora railgun - lets face it, if your neighbours knew you had this in your garage they would think twice about blocking the drive

 

http://www.vonabt.co.uk/models/Dora/DoraBuild.htm

 

for an idea of the scale go to the galley and scroll along to about halfway to see the builder standing next to his creation.

 

Jon

Hi Jon

 

It is a too over rated waste of resources, it was only used in one battle and then only fired 48 rounds.

[halfwit]

I quite fancy this 1/6th scale Dora railgun...

 

Again HobbyBoss make a 1:72 kit - but they are normally about £130 - £140! There are some on ebay.

[edcayton]

Will he be upset if Bachmann announce an rtr version?

 

Ed

[jonhall]

A quick look at British Pathe

 

Smaller British guns

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/railway-guns/query/railway+gun

and with sound

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/somewhere-in-england-2/query/railway+gun

 

French? gun

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/giant-gun-on-railway/query/railway+gun

 

US guns

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/big-u-s-guns/query/railway+gun

 

US mortars (or they have a very strange anti aircraft gun if the caption is believed)

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/fort-monroe-virginia-aka-fort-monroe-big-guns/query/railway+gun

 

Boche Buster

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/the-boche-buster/query/railway+gun

 

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/pathe-gazette-special-shells-across-the-channel/query/railway+gun

 

jon

[PhilJ W]

During WW2 some rail mounted guns were placed in East Kent and were used to fire across the Channel. They used the larger diesel-electric locomotives commandeered from the LMS together with special 12 wheel ammunition wagons. The crews were accommodated in some French railway vans that were on this side of the Channel when France fell

[juggy0_1]

Thanks for all the info sofar , i have Peter Tatlows book and R.J.Esserys book LMS wagons v2 but i'm still puzzled as to why there is only one picture in existence (so far)

[jonhall]

I believe two smaller railguns were sent to the Swanage branch and kept on sidings near Norden to defend Sandbanks in case of German invasion.

 

The larger guns were often installed on a curved track as they could not traverse, so the wagon was shunted along until the barrel pointed in the right direction.

 

There is a Leopold K5 gun at the Museum of the Atlantic Wall near Calais, and another at the Aberdeen proving grounds in the US. I believe the surviving british gun is at Tidworth at the moment, but that it may be on a 'proving'  chassis rather than a conventional railgun.

 

Jon

Edited January 26, 2013 by jonhall

[jonhall]

Going back to the original photo, I feel that this might well be HMG Boche Buster

 

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205197347

 

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205197444

 

Jon

Edited January 26, 2013 by jonhall

[LNERGE]

If it had gone into the Concrete Beam Pool, then it's probable that only the bogies would have been kept, and probably fitted with some sort of cradle to carry the beams. Have a look at the vehicles on this link; there's some fascinating stuff:-

http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/SpecialVehiclesIssue.pdf

Does anyone know where these wagons worked to and from in their gun-carrying days, and for which company they were originally built? I have visions of one being sent down the rather steep branch to Rosyth, which I think specialised in work on large capital ships, such as battleships and monitors.

Although not wishing to let the topic slip from the main subject too much i'd really like to ask a question regarding concrete beam wagons... How many were there available at any one time for the transport of concrete beams? 

[PhilJ W]

Going back to the original photo, I feel that this might well be HMG Boche Buster

 

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205197347

 

Jon

Yes indeed it is. You will note it is attached to the 12 wheel (2 X 6 wheel bogies) ammunition van and the 0-6-0 diesel electric shunter.

EDIT although in the photo above it is obscured by the chap standing to attention on the side at the breach end there is a slight drop in the side of about 6 inches.

Edited January 26, 2013 by PhilJ W

[juggy0_1]

I believe two smaller railguns were sent to the Swanage branch and kept on sidings near Norden to defend Sandbanks in case of German invasion.

 

The larger guns were often installed on a curved track as they could not traverse, so the wagon was shunted along until the barrel pointed in the right direction.

 

There is a Leopold K5 gun at the Museum of the Atlantic Wall near Calais, and another at the Aberdeen proving grounds in the US. I believe the surviving british gun is at Tidwork at the moment, but that it may be on a 'proving'  chassis rather than a conventional railgun.

 

Jon

Hi Jon, forgive my ignorance but where is Tidwork ?.

[jonhall]

Hi Jon, forgive my ignorance but where is Tidwork ?.

 

 

Errm, its remarkably near the rather better spelt Tidworth just around the corner from Stonehenge.

 

Jon

[Clive Mortimore]

Going back to the original photo, I feel that this might well be HMG Boche Buster

 

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205197347

 

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205197444

 

Jon

 

Hi Jon

 

It might be, that did cross my mind. Both the 13.5 inch gun  barrels were dimensionally similar to the original 14 inch guns carried on these mountings. The 18 inch Howitzer was designed to have the same exterior contours to the 14 inch gun so it could be mounted in place of a 14 inch barrel if the tactical situation required a howitzer not a gun. Therefore photos of any 3 of these weapons are very hard to tell apart.  Boche Buster was filmed and photographed more times than it fired in training. It made a good propaganda film for the home front when we were under threat from invasion. The 13.5 inch doesn’t seem too photographed as much, maybe because they were being used to shell German occupied France.

 

I am going to have to dig out some naval gunnery books to see if the 13.5 and 14 inch shared or had similar mounts on board ship.

Edited January 26, 2013 by Clive Mortimore

[juggy0_1]

Errm, its remarkably near the rather better spelt Tidworth just around the corner from Stonehenge.

 

Jon

Ahh, thanks jon, i presume its at the garrison and is it a museum or available for viewing ?

[Clive Mortimore]

A quick look at British Pathe

 

Smaller British guns

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/railway-guns/query/railway+gun

and with sound

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/somewhere-in-england-2/query/railway+gun

 

French? gun

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/giant-gun-on-railway/query/railway+gun

 

US guns

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/big-u-s-guns/query/railway+gun

 

US mortars (or they have a very strange anti aircraft gun if the caption is believed)

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/fort-monroe-virginia-aka-fort-monroe-big-guns/query/railway+gun

 

Boche Buster

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/the-boche-buster/query/railway+gun

 

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/pathe-gazette-special-shells-across-the-channel/query/railway+gun

 

jon

 

 

Hi Jon

 

Thanks for these links.

 

The first two show the 12 inch railway howtizer, the one nearest the camera in most shots is a MkV and the other two are MkIIIs. In the second film I liked the MkII Asssult boats being used, the folding boat bridge equipment and the Small Box Girder Bridge being built. They were not Bren carriers but Universal Carriers.

Here is my wargame drawing of a 12 inch MkV railway howitzer.

 

Number 3 is a French gun what one I do not know but will find out tonight.

Number 4 great

Number 5, old 12 inch coast mortars mounted on railroad carriages for use in France during WW1, did not get there as they ran out of war. Cleaned and dusted off for use as coast artillery again in WW2. More valuble as scrap metal than as guns so soon turned into Sherman tanks. As coast defense howitzers they were designed to lob their shells on to the decks of passing enemy ships. As rail howitzers in trench warfare they would have been great for attacking fortified defenses. As AA guns, a pilot would have to be unlucky to be flying over head at the wrong time.

Number 6 and 7 propaganda.

 

As for Tidwork, I did work in Tidworth so was that Tidwork?

Edited January 26, 2013 by Clive Mortimore

[jamie92208]

The manufacture of such large gun barrels was a long and very specialised business with IIRC only 2 factories in the UK that could do it.  One was certainly in Sheffield and in the early days of WW1 we were building 8 capital ships, with up to 14 guns each per year.  (More some years) thus they needed to trasnported to the shipyards which were on the Clyde, the Tyne, Barrow in Furness plus Portsmouth Dockyard and one or two other places.   Thus the Midland had 2 or three gunsets one of which was for the biggest 15" barrels.

 

The other factory was called the Coventry works but I'm not sure of it's actual location. 

 

Certainly even in WW2 there was still need for these as by the later days our battleships were often used as floating artillery for shore bombardment which wore out barrels very quickly thus ships like Warspite cam back for the barrels to be changed after D day. 

 

There is more information about the Midland Gunsets in Essery's book on Midland wagons.   There were also a similar set of specialised wagons for trasnporting large peices of armour plate which were also made in Sheffield then taken to the yards to be bolted to the ships after they were launched.

 

Jamie

[Clive Mortimore]

The manufacture of such large gun barrels was a long and very specialised business with IIRC only 2 factories in the UK that could do it.  One was certainly in Sheffield and in the early days of WW1 we were building 8 capital ships, with up to 14 guns each per year.  (More some years) thus they needed to trasnported to the shipyards which were on the Clyde, the Tyne, Barrow in Furness plus Portsmouth Dockyard and one or two other places.   Thus the Midland had 2 or three gunsets one of which was for the biggest 15" barrels.

 

The other factory was called the Coventry works but I'm not sure of it's actual location. 

 

Jamie

 

Hi Jamie

 

I am not familar with Coventry but the Coventry Odnance Works was served by the Foleshill Railway according to the Wawickshire railway website http://warwickshirerailways.com/misc/foleshillrailway.htm

[LNERGE]

A bit here..

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/features/index6.shtml

[Arthur]

15" gun barrels were produced at 6 different works in the U.K.

 

Armstrong Whitworth at both Elswick, Newcastle on Tyne and Openshaw,, Manchester.

Beardmores in Glasgow

Vickers in Sheffield

The Royal Gun Factory in Woolwich

Coventry Ordnance Works in Coventry

 

The latter was set up by a consortium of naval ship builders, John Brown, Cammell Laird and Fairfields to break the monopoly, and high prices, charged by the likes of AW and Vickers.

[Fat Controller]

The curved nature of the tracks for the guns near Guston is very evident from the O/S map. Presumably the Elham Valley line was used for the Bochebuster because of the convenient curve from Bishopsbourne towards Barham; I notice in the photo that the former double track has been singled and slued, presumably to give a smoother curve. I was told by locals that Bochebuster was crewed by Polish gunners for a while; also, I heard that the Guston guns had a Canadian crew at one time.

[Clive Mortimore]

A quick look at British Pathe

 

 

French? gun

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/giant-gun-on-railway/query/railway+gun

 

jon

Hi Jon

 

From the Axis History Forum it is a "340 mm Mle 1912 à berceau plate-forme".