Domestic coal wagons / Coal yards in the 80s

[SGJ]

I am wanting to know what type of coal wagon to use for a early 80s layout.

The scene is a small Domestic coal yard next to a small 2 platform station

There is quite a few wagons from Bachmann and Hornby, and Dapol.

The Questions are some wagons have end doors and some have side doors so what would be best for the beginning of the decade.

The livery is another issue, would the wagons be Brown or grey

Would 16 ton 21 ton or 24 ton wagons be used or all three.

Is the use of plank wagons acceptable or would the wagons all be steel by this time.

The loco type that I want to use is either Class 25 or Class 31.

The area that I am basing my layout on is around the site of Armley Moor / Carr crofts in Leeds West Yorkshire, as when I were at School I went swimming and had to pass the area, unfortunately I cant remember how the coal yard looked, But I can remember a nasty smell from the factory near by.

Any help appreciated

https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ll=53.794939,-1.595764&spn=0.002344,0.005284&t=h&z=18

SGJ

[28XX]

Underwood's at Droitwich Spa was still receiving wagon-load coal in '81.  Theirs came in 21T vac fitted hoppers (brown) to suit their unloading facility.  No revenue earning wood bodied wagons by then, and very few unfitted.  A country mile or two from your location, however.

[Rivercider]

Hello 

 

I am not familiar with Armley Moor Coal Depot, if that is your prototype inspiration.

I assume from your question that the depot did not unload hopper wagons, though some depots did have a pit

and facilities to tip 16t and 21t minerals using the end doors.

 

Wooden coal wagons were long gone by the 1980s and 24t minerals would be very rare in domestic traffic I think,

so I think you should be looking at steel wagons, mostly 16t minerals with a few 21t minerals.

Into the 1970s there were still large numbers of grey unfitted coal wagons in traffic, but they quickly dwindled in the 1980s.

So for a layout set around 1980 you could have a mix of both fitted (brown) and unfitted (grey).

 

I believe Bachmann's 16t minerals are well thought of, I have 8 or 9 of them and they look good to me.

 

Here is a crop of a shot taken at Banbury in 1981, there are 2 x 21 tonners and 3 x 16 tonners in the yard, 

56042 passing Banbury with coal for Didcot Power Station, 10/7/81

 

cheers

[SGJ]

I don`t think the yard had a pit, I never saw any Hoppers there Neither.

on the Bachmann web site there are a fair few to choose between, 

 

I think this is the type to buy

http://www.Bachmann.co.uk/image_box.php?image=images1/branchline/37-226F.jpg&cat_no=37-226F&info=0&width=650&height=354

If I had the Grey unfitted wagons would i need to have a unfitted brake van and could they run in the same train ( both fitted wagons and unfitted )

http://www.ehattons.com/52667/Bachmann_UK_37_528C_20_Ton_Brake_Van_Unfitted_BR_Grey/StockDetail.aspx

or would a normal brake van be usable

http://www.gaugemaster.com/item_details.asp?code=B37-537D

 

Many thanks

SGJ

( I have realised how little I know about my hobby )

[SGJ]

I have found a picture of a class 31 at the location on a train of empty wagons

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42670985@N05/5240449579/in/photostream

So that answers the brake van question I think

I have also found a couple of station shots of Armley moor station

http://www.flickr.com/photos/thanoz/3999826047/in/faves-jduk/lightbox/

http://www.flickriver.com/photos/thanoz/3997362443/

In Both pictures the coal yard is bigger than what I remember of it

 

SGJ

[Rivercider]

That photo of 31249 on the freight trip is a good find. It looks like they are all vacuum fitted 16t minerals.

In that  instance the brake van would not be needed if all the vacuum pipes were all connected and the brakes in working order.

However as it is only a light train and a local trip move to Hunslet the crew may not have bothered to connect the vacuum pipes, and will rely on the loco brake.

Also bear in mind the the loco and crew probably ran with a brake van for the whole turn as the inwards loaded working may have had unfitted wagons.

 

With the introduction of TOPS in the 1970s wagons were stencilled with the TOPS code, MCO for unfitted 16t, MCV or MXV for vacuum fiitted 16t,

so you may wish to look out for them, also avoid the slope sided or MOT version of 16 tonners, as they were gone by then.

  

Brake vans would have been coded CAO (unfitted), or CAP (vacuum piped), either type in grey or brown would be appropriate for 1980,

 

cheers

[westie7]

Depends how early 80's

 

There was a Rail Express article on Speedlink Coal, July 2008.

Article focusses on 1984 onwards after the withdrawl of vacuum braked coal services.

 

Rgds

Mark

[SGJ]

Depends how early 80's

 

There was a Rail Express article on Speedlink Coal, July 2008.

Article focusses on 1984 onwards after the withdrawl of vacuum braked coal services.

 

Rgds

Mark

It would be early 80s, because I have a couple of class 40s, and they were withdrawn from service by 1984 / 5, so I am aiming for around 1981 - 85

The layouts Station is going to be a what if situation, as the Armley Moor station had closed in 1966 ( 8 years before I was born ).

The line is the Leeds - Bradford Interchange line, just a short distance from copley hill, so not much in the way of loco hauled stock, but a fair few parcels trains, and dmus could be run, plus the 17:30 Interchange to Kingscross ( Deltic Hauled in 1979 ), presumably 47`s could have done this service too.

Thanks for the replys so far

( esp Rivercider ), very helpfull

 

SGJ

[Guest stuartp]

I've never come across any ER shunter who coupled vacuum bags he didn't need to, so I doubt any of those on the 31 trip are. The other indication that it's unfitted (other than the fact that it actually has a brakevan) is the sidelamps - they're only required on unfitted/partly fitted trains, they indicate to the driver that the train is complete (he's supposed to look back occasionally and check).

 

The ER didn't abolish unfitted revenue (as opposed to engineers') trains until 1989-ish so both types would be around in your period. If you decide to model the guard he would be as likely to be wearing jeans and a donkey jacket as anything resembling a uniform, maybe a hi viz vest but not always.

[N15class]

Most domestic coal was delivered by lorry at this time. There may be a few exeptions. Our yards where at Early and Wokingham and we only has a few loads by wagons in the early 70's. By the 80's everything came from the factors by road.

[Fat Controller]

Most domestic coal was delivered by lorry at this time. There may be a few exeptions. Our yards where at Early and Wokingham and we only has a few loads by wagons in the early 70's. By the 80's everything came from the factors by road.

Whilst, in the South, coal was delivered by rail to a relatively small number of Coal Concentration Depots, thence by road, elsewhere wagonload rail delivery lasted until the Miners' strike of the early 1980s. At the time, we lived in the north-east, where small depots existed at Blaydon, Hexham, Morpeth, and many other places. Similar arrangements existed all over Scotland, and in much of the Yorkshire and Lancashire areas.

[PatB]

Somewhere around I have a photo in a book, taken in 1981, of a long rake of BR hoppers (I know not whether fitted or unfitted) alongside Cumberland Road in Bristol, having unloaded at the Western Fuels depot on Bristol docks.  Western Fuels were in operation at the site until 1987 or 88 I think.  The depot wasn't all that big in terms of area as I became familiar with the site after closure so, although it's in a different Region, it might provide some food for thought.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Most small coal yards in the West Midlands lost their rail connections in the 1960s. A lot of the remaining rail-borne traffic came in 21T hoppers to the Coal Concentration Depot at Small Heath.

[Ray M]

Hello SGJ

Ref your request about Armley Moor coal yard, it was a place i remember well. 

i also walked to Armley baths in the 60s, and then going/coming from work on the number 11 bus

along Tong Road in the 70s.

The coal yard itself had just 2 lines, with another 2 lines outside the yard with run round facility, 

there was also a head shunt adjacent to the running lines, which stopped at the road over bridge.

I can only ever recall seeing 16 ton wagons (both fitted & unfitted) in the yard.

Class 03/08/24/25/31 all worked the yard at some time.

The class 03/08s could be from either Holbeck or Hammerton street depots, running either to Hunslet

or back toward Bradford, I once remember seeing a 03 with 6 in tow, heading over Henconner lane bridge

towards Bradford

Oh and by the way ,the factory with the nasty smell was Blakeys foundry ( the maker of metal segs for shoes)

[Ray M]

Forgot to mention that that quite a few different locos used this line ,back in the 70s-80s.

I have seen class 24/25/31/40/45/46/47/55 all use the line.

i also have the paper cutting from the Bradford news paper, of my father on the

cab door of 9008(i think), being waved away by the Lord & Lady mayoress, on the first run of the Bradford

Executive train from interchange.

This was the train that bypassed Leeds by Copley Hill triangle

1 train each way per day , it could be a Deltic or Hawker Siddley (class 47).

i`ll try to post that pic when i get used to all this computer stuff

[SGJ]

Forgot to mention that that quite a few different locos used this line ,back in the 70s-80s.

I have seen class 24/25/31/40/45/46/47/55 all use the line.

i also have the paper cutting from the Bradford news paper, of my father on the

cab door of 9008(i think), being waved away by the Lord & Lady mayoress, on the first run of the Bradford

Executive train from interchange.

This was the train that bypassed Leeds by Copley Hill triangle

1 train each way per day , it could be a Deltic or Hawker Siddley (class 47).

i`ll try to post that pic when i get used to all this computer stuff

Hi Ray M,

If you have time could you scan a drawing of the yard and run round loop / head shunt 

or use microsofts paint

Was the run round loop at the back of the white lion pub or nearer to Wortley Road ?

Cant wait to see the pic of 9006

I cant find much reference of the Bradford Executive, but haven't digged deep yet for it, found this though ( in Intercity days )

http://www.srpublicity.co.uk/brs/co-images/bra.JPG

all help appreciated

SGJ

 

The smell was one I will never forget.

ttfn

[Ray M]

PM sent

[Rivercider]

I don`t think the yard had a pit, I never saw any Hoppers there Neither.

on the Bachmann web site there are a fair few to choose between, 

 

I think this is the type to buy

http://www.Bachmann.co.uk/image_box.php?image=images1/branchline/37-226F.jpg&cat_no=37-226F&info=0&width=650&height=354

If I had the Grey unfitted wagons would i need to have a unfitted brake van and could they run in the same train ( both fitted wagons and unfitted )

 

Sorry I did not properly answer those questions.

Yes, 37-226 in all its variations is right, also 37-252. Grey ones 37-225, 37-250 and 37-377 would be OK.

For the 1980s, wagons described as having a 'late' livery variation are better, also any with TOPS codes.

 

You can run fitted and unfitted mixed in the same train as long as you have a brake van on the rear.

For a heavily loaded train or one running at higher speeds or over a hilly route there would normally be a 'fitted head'

of vacuum braked wagons piped up next to the loco to help the driver control the train, though as Stuart has pointed out

for a short distance local move like the Armley trip the guard or shunter would not normally bother shunting vacuum braked wagons

to the front of the train if he did not have to.

 

cheers 

[Baby Deltic]

Where I live, in Colchester, we used to have a Charringtons coal depot at Hythe Station. A class 08 did a trip working from Colchester yard with some Railfreight or Charringtons branded HEA's. There was an inclined headshunt IIRC and they used capstans and cables to position the wagons. Obviously not a big coal depot like the one you are looking at modelling, but I thin the era is right as I remember it.

[Rivercider]

Where I live, in Colchester, we used to have a Charringtons coal depot at Hythe Station. A class 08 did a trip working from Colchester yard with some Railfreight or Charringtons branded HEA's. There was an inclined headshunt IIRC and they used capstans and cables to position the wagons. Obviously not a big coal depot like the one you are looking at modelling, but I thin the era is right as I remember it.

 

Here is the trip you refer to, in 1981, I wonder how many brake pipes are connected here? 

08228 trundles through Colchester with empty 21t hoppers from Hythe CCD 12/2/81, 

[Baby Deltic]

Here is the trip you refer to, in 1981, I wonder how many brake pipes are connected here? 

scan0060.jpg

08228 trundles through Colchester with empty 21t hoppers from Hythe CCD 12/2/81, 

Lovely stuff, Kevin. I remember in about 1988 I was outside the Triangle Skating Rink and the class 08 trundled past light engine in the dark, heading towards the Hythe. Just as it got to the junction at the Clacton end of the St Botolph's triangle, there was a loud crash followed by the crew jumping down with torches. My guess is that it derailed on the diamond crossing.

[Rivercider]

Lovely stuff, Kevin. I remember in about 1988 I was outside the Triangle Skating Rink and the class 08 trundled past light engine in the dark, heading towards the Hythe. Just as it got to the junction at the Clacton end of the St Botolph's triangle, there was a loud crash followed by the crew jumping down with torches. My guess is that it derailed on the diamond crossing.

Your post prompted me to check my Flickr site, and found I had captioned my photo 'Hyde', shame on me!

[islander]

I think it is in Traction magazine this month that you will find some pictures of Buxton South yard / Higher Buxton from the late 70's. Coal was deliverd their in 16 tnrs. Some good views from the appropriate period. If you type Higher Buxton yard into google you should find some information and pictures of Higher Buxton which may provide insperation for your own model. In fact there is a thread on Buxton South on this forum at the moment. Great pictures of a coal yard of the time.

 

Would post links but a bit difficult as using a mobile device.

[BigBountyHunter]

Here is the trip you refer to, in 1981, I wonder how many brake pipes are connected here? 

scan0060.jpg

08228 trundles through Colchester with empty 21t hoppers from Hythe CCD 12/2/81, 

I love this picture !! thankyou for sharing, brings back many happy memories, the pillbox in the background was demolished along with the car park to make way for the Asda site, i never thought id see this again, many thanks

[cheesysmith]

How many brake pipes are connected in the photo, suspect none as the first 2 wagons are rebuilt LNER brake fitted wagons, very few if any were brake piped or vac fitted. When tops came along the requirement to paint fitted wagons brown and unfitted ones grey was not required due to the tops code and the computer knew if the wagon had vac brakes or not, so almost all wagons were painted brown.