Peco symmetric 3 way turnouts - examples on the big railway

[YK 50A]

Hi,

I am considering using a couple of the Peco Code 100 symmetric 3 way turnouts (SL-99/SL-E99) to maximise siding space.  I was of the understanding that although they were not particularly common, there were UK standard gauge prototypes until the late 80s/early 90s at least.

 

Here's the thing, I thought I happened on a photograph (possibly on Flickr) of a marshalling yard (Toton springs to mind, although it could have been anywhere) with a series of sidings using a symmetric 3 way followed by several 2 way turnouts.  I can't find it now and I'm wondering if I saw the picture "late at night" if you follow.

 

I can find plenty of examples of an asymmetric turnout, so I was wondering if anyone can point me in the direction (no pun intended, etc) of examples of UK standard gauge 3 way symmetric turnouts.

Cheers,

Alun

[Miss Prism]

Alun - although the Peco SL-99 is 'symmetric' in respect of its vee positions, its bladesets do not overlap, so the bladesets are in fact 'tandem', and thus the item as a whole is not truly symmetric in the normally accepted meaning of that term. It's a sensible fudge actually, because overlapping blade sets are difficult to gauge and have to be operated in a particular sequence.

 

Tandem (staggered vees) turnouts, with tandem bladesets, are common. The Midland was fond of overlapping bladesets, and they could often be found it their goods yards, but I think they got rid of them on running lines. Likewise the GER I think. The GWR did not allow overlapping bladesets as a rule.

[YK 50A]

Thanks for the clarification which is in itself useful and interesting.

 

I am aware that staggered vee (asymmetrical in my terminology) turnouts are common, indeed wrote that I can find "plenty of examples" in my original post.  I am looking for examples (if there are any) of turnouts with symmetrical vees and tandem blade sets as per the Peco SL-99/SL-E99.

 

Alun

[Classsix T]

Hi Alun, Alistair has a (prototype) photo taken from the steps of Bakewell 'box which shows a symmetrical 3-way on his layout thread.

 

Hth, C6T.

[RFS]

There's one like the SL-99 in the yard in the Midland Railway Centre in Butterley ...

 

 

[Shadow]

 

 

Some here,

 

Ecclesbourne Valley Railway, Wirksworth

 

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2121447

 

and 

 

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2095790

[Flying Pig]

I found a few photos online showing symmetric crossings, but what the switches are doing I can't say.  Here are what look like Great Eastern examples at Temple Mills;  there's another in the 1906 photo on this page, but note how those in the 1950s yard are clearly tandem designs.  There's what may be an LNWR example in this thread (about post 7). There may be some at the up end of Toton Down sidings (MR again) in a 1951 aerial view (in a book so I can't reproduce it).  Pictures of Modernisation Plan yards at Tees and Tinsley don't show any, and though a good lawyer might have a go with this picture (unidentified, from this page) I suspect that they're tandem.

[YK 50A]

Thanks all who responded and in which case, I think I can get away with a couple!

 

Alun

[Flying Pig]

I'm afraid I'm not convinced, Alun.  The pictures linked on this thread could equally be saying "used by the GER, MR (per Miss Prism above) and possibly LNWR, but not used in new layouts after the grouping and a bit of a rare fossil by the period you're interested in".

[YK 50A]

I hear you, and I'm going to have a play around with the plans (losing the 3 ways), but if they really do gain me some significant yard and depot space, a "rare fossil" will do.  As an aside, the "good lawyer" marshalling yard picture does similar to the one I recall seeing and on close inspection, some of the 3 way points do like like they might be tandems.  However, the 3 ways on either side of the 2 middle groups of sidings look close to what I'm looking for.

 

Alun

[Flying Pig]

Could you not use the Code 75 tandem?

[YK 50A]

Could you not use the Code 75 tandem?

 

Depending on which form the layout eventually takes, I might want to lay an inner 2nd radius curve, utilise a streamline 6' on the straights, but a setrack 6' on the curves.  I like the look of Code 75 (indeed I have some on my old layout) and it would be great to have the option of concrete sleepers.  However, I have a psychological hurdle to overcome, which is whether I can nicely lay a flexi-track 2nd radius curve.  In my head, using a combination of setrack and streamline is safer.

 

Alun

[YK 50A]

Could you not use the Code 75 tandem?

 

And am also thinking about using a couple of the setrack curved points.

[LongRail]

I'm afraid I'm not convinced, Alun.  The pictures linked on this thread could equally be saying "used by the GER, MR (per Miss Prism above) and possibly LNWR, but not used in new layouts after the grouping and a bit of a rare fossil by the period you're interested in".

I think that is the issue you wouldn't expect to find them on the modern network. I purchased one and put it back in the box I think the radius looks too acute and to wire it up was too complicated because I have detection on my layout fir the direction which the points are set.

 

I am working on a new depot layout for a train operating company at the moment and I am using the smallest switches for 5mph running but these are still a scale length of 400mm sometimes you have to do things on a model railway. I have one piece of single radius track on an incline it works because I use larger radius either side as a transition but it took a fair amount positioning to get it right.

[YK 50A]

I think that is the issue you wouldn't expect to find them on the modern network. I purchased one and put it back in the box I think the radius looks too acute and to wire it up was too complicated because I have detection on my layout fir the direction which the points are set.

 

I am working on a new depot layout for a train operating company at the moment and I am using the smallest switches for 5mph running but these are still a scale length of 400mm sometimes you have to do things on a model railway. I have one piece of single radius track on an incline it works because I use larger radius either side as a transition but it took a fair amount positioning to get it right.

 

I do hear you, but I don't have the complex wiring issues, the radius appears to be approximately the equivalent of medium radius points and using one of these will allow me to hold perhaps 4 more locomotives in isolated sections and increase the play value.  It maybe one of those things I "have to do". 

 

Alun

[EddieB]

Alun - although the Peco SL-99 is 'symmetric' in respect of its vee positions, its bladesets do not overlap, so the bladesets are in fact 'tandem', and thus the item as a whole is not truly symmetric in the normally accepted meaning of that term. It's a sensible fudge actually, because overlapping blade sets are difficult to gauge and have to be operated in a particular sequence.

 

Tandem (staggered vees) turnouts, with tandem bladesets, are common. The Midland was fond of overlapping bladesets, and they could often be found it their goods yards, but I think they got rid of them on running lines. Likewise the GER I think. The GWR did not allow overlapping bladesets as a rule.

It certainly was the case the the Great Eastern indulged a fondness for complex pointwork - a multiplicity of three-ways, single and double slips - even at relatively minor locations.  Here's a famous photo of Ongar from the Windwood collection:

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/29644579@N07/9008786199/

 

Note the tandem three-way point (different radii) at the station throat, a double slip controlling access to the goods yard and a symmetric three-way point within the goods yard itself.

[LongRail]

Alum,

 

No problem play value is the main thing at the end of the day I think the good thing with this forum is that allows you to bounce ideas off lots of people

[YK 50A]

It certainly was the case the the Great Eastern indulged a fondness for complex pointwork - a multiplicity of three-ways, single and double slips - even at relatively minor locations.  Here's a famous photo of Ongar from the Windwood collection:

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/29644579@N07/9008786199/

 

Note the tandem three-way point (different radii) at the station throat, a double slip controlling access to the goods yard and a symmetric three-way point within the goods yard itself.

 

Thanks for that, interesting that the tandem 3 way is on the branch itself.

 

Alun

[ess1uk]

interesting thread this.

i considered using 3 way points and even bought 2.

i've now decided that they dont look right even if they give me loads more siding space to store wagons

now then what to do with those 2 points?

[YK 50A]

Isn't it!

 

It depends how much you like looking at / shunting / pulling / pushing long lines of trucks - or in my case parcels vans.

 

It's all coming up at the moment in preparation for a house move and I never properly wired mine as I knew the move was coming.  I wouldn't ladder them, but as a feed to more traditional pointwork, I think they look ok and it does allow you to open the sidings out sooner.  I did not put them on the running lines, but I had none of the reliability issues apparently experienced by some.

 

Alun

[PenrithBeacon]

There is a tandem on the Bluebell at Horsted Keynes

[ess1uk]

take a look at this in Wansford yard

 

 

[Jenny Emily]

I've had reliability issues with a few locos on these, but in small yards and hidden storage yards they are extremely useful. I use one on Trinity Road and two on Grove street.

 

I seem to remember seeing a photo (and I could be wrong) of one inset in cobbles at the old crown street goods in Liverpool when it was in use as a coal yard.