DCC Sound on DC

[Lowlander]

This it?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53z9CDxj0xA

Hi

 

Yes. That's one of them. Maybe also try Ayr mrg.

 

 

Stephen

[SDJR7F88]

Hi

 

Yes. That's one of them. Maybe also try Ayr mrg.

 

 

Stephen

Ok will check his channel out too! This is the most helpful video I have found on the issue! Thanks for point me in the right direction and I hope they don't mine me post there videos on here.

[RAF96]

Hornby warn in their blurb that the new TTS diesels will not play sounds on DC, only DCC, although the motor will be controllable on DC.

Edit - that also applies to their Steam TTS.

Edited November 23, 2014 by RAFHAAA96

[adb968008]

I'm kicking round with the idea of Dcc sound on DC.

I saw a nice video of a Bachmann 40 on DC with sound, so I recently got a Bachmann 47, (32-801DS green 47) sound works fine on my Dcc test bench and thought I'd try it.

 

On my dc layout (gaugemaster w with 1amp supply, no track cleaner etc), the loco runs fine, but no sound is output.

Back on the test bench, my Dcc prodigy works ok and the 47 sounds well.

I put it on a basic Bachmann DC controller on the bench and still no sound.

 

The loco was s/h so there's a chance it's not a factory fitted chip, is there a way to identify the chip manufacturer ?

 

I've too many locos / track / preorders eating my budget to go DCC just yet, long term plan, so i'm happy to keep it, but reading this and other threads I was hoping to hear it sing on DC.

 

Is there any settings I need to configure ?

 

 

I'm also considering a Roco loco with sound (I read elsewhere Roco uses Zimo), but don't want to spend now if it's not going to give any benefit for a few years !

 

Is there only certain manufacturers / certain chips that allow sound on DC ? (Already eliminated Hornby TTS).

Edited November 2, 2016 by adb968008

[pheaton]

Likely the chip is not enabled for dc there is a CV that escapes me you can change that enables it.

 

Edit just found it CV 13 must be set to 1

Edited November 2, 2016 by pheaton

[pauliebanger]

I'm kicking round with the idea of Dcc sound on DC.

I saw a nice video of a Bachmann 40 on DC with sound, so I recently got a Bachmann 47, (32-801DS green 47) sound works fine on my Dcc test bench and thought I'd try it.

 

On my dc layout (gaugemaster w with 1amp supply, no track cleaner etc), the loco runs fine, but no sound is output.

Back on the test bench, my Dcc prodigy works ok and the 47 sounds well.

I put it on a basic Bachmann DC controller on the bench and still no sound.

 

The loco was s/h so there's a chance it's not a factory fitted chip, is there a way to identify the chip manufacturer ?

 

I've too many locos / track / preorders eating my budget to go DCC just yet, long term plan, so i'm happy to keep it, but reading this and other threads I was hoping to hear it sing on DC.

 

Is there any settings I need to configure ?

 

 

I'm also considering a Roco loco with sound (I read elsewhere Roco uses Zimo), but don't want to spend now if it's not going to give any benefit for a few years !

 

Is there only certain manufacturers / certain chips that allow sound on DC ? (Already eliminated Hornby TTS).

 

Read the value in CV8. This number can then be checked with the NMRA manufacturer ID number list to reveal which brand of decoder is present. For example, ZIMO would give value 145, ESU something different.

 

If factory fitted, it will be an ESU. These can definitely play sound on DC, but a setting is required. (as would be for lights, motor regulation and so on) CV 29 will have a setting to enabling running on DC. (Bit 2 needs to be enabled). Like many people, I always disable the ability to run on DC as I run DCC exclusively, and DC option 'on' in these circumstances can cause run-aways. It's likely that this is what has happened to your decoder. This can be rectified with a CV change or two.

 

Roco does use ZIMO, at least they have from around 2009. These can also run sound on DC or DCC, as can any ZIMO sound decoder.

 

Please note that you will not get the full array of sounds from any DCC sound decoder on analogue since DC controllers do not have buttons to trigger sounds manually.

 

Good luck,

 

Paul

[adb968008]

Likely the chip is not enabled for dc there is a CV that escapes me you can change that enables it.

Edit just found it CV 13 must be set to 1

That was it !

 

 

So I've lost my Sound chastity tonight.

 

I have, for the last few hours had my first experience of sound.

Not sure I could run multiple locos at the same time as the volume is a bit over powering but none the less it was pretty good.

 

i do have one more question... doing a run round on my stock.. took nearly 3 minutes.. I stop (so does the sound), uncouple and move forwards.. but this involves the whole engine start up routine.. then stop again to reverse direction... this also involves the whole engine start up routine.. run to the other end... and you get it.

 

Is this one of the drawbacks of sound on DC or is there a way to cut out the whole start up, engine start routine ? (I suppose I could not fully shut off power ?, but reversing on DC involves a momentary "off".

 

I do like the smooth start though, it's a lot more regulated than straight DC.

I need a class 40 with sound..

Edited November 2, 2016 by adb968008

[Silver Sidelines]

Good Evening

 

I have loaded three posts to my Blog about running digital sound locos on analogue DC.  Here is one link.

 

There are also videos on YouTube - this one for example. where for example the train comes to a halt but the engines are kept running before pulling away.

 

As you note it requires patience.  Patience to start up, Patience to slow down. Patience to stop BUT not shut down.  You have to let the current sound routine 'play out' before starting up the next routine.  Once you understand so much, it all becomes much easier.

 

I use Gaugemaster DS / P controllers.  With practice you can bring a sound locomotive to a halt keeping the sound 'running'.  Flicking the 'reverse' switch on the Gaugemaster to change direction can be easily carried out without shutting anything down.  Controlling a digital sound loco on analogue adds a whole new dimension.  Quite a challenge but good fun.

 

I have acquired three digital sound locos compared to lots of analogue DC locos.  There is no way I will be changing to digital just to hear a few bells and whistles.

 

Good luck - and a little patience.

 

Ray

Edited November 2, 2016 by Silver Sidelines

[pheaton]

On dc the chip uses voltage to decide the sound obviously when stopped the volts are zero so no sound. as a result of using voltage you get no real control over the engine sounds where as dcc uses throttle position to operate as the voltage is a constant 16v ish you always get sounds including your functions. You really need to consider switching to dcc :-).

[leopardml2341]

 You really need to consider switching to dcc :-).

Especially as it need not be that expensive.....

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/60679/NCE_524_042_NCE_Power_Cab_2_Amp_DCC_controller/StockDetail.aspx

 

Usual disclaimer.

Edited November 3, 2016 by leopardml2341

[Silver Sidelines]

Hi Pheaton

 

You obviously have not driven digital sound locomotive on DC (and you haven't listened to my videos! - and here

On dc the chip uses voltage to decide the sound obviously when stopped the volts are zero ......

My understanding that digital sound was originally developed for analogue systems before the advent of digital control.  As I have already said in this thread (using Gaugemaster DS controllers) it is perfectly possible to start the engine up, let it tick over, move it, reverse it, set off, stop with the engine running.  All very good fun.  You have to get out of your mind that the controller is a speed control - with digital sound it becomes more like a rotary switch with different positions (ie different power outputs) for different functions (start up, move off, full power, slow down brake).

 

Regards

 

Ray

Edited November 3, 2016 by Silver Sidelines

[pheaton]

Ray,

 

Gauge master ds controllers (I assume yours is fitted with inertia) behave differently to a standard analogue controller loksound chips which is what adb is describing were never developed for dc operation.

 

Gaugemaster ds controllers supply a constant voltage and control the train through current hence the reason you get more control over the decoder over a standard Dc controller iirc.

 

 

Happy to be corrected though.

 

Thanks

 

Simon

Edited November 4, 2016 by pheaton

[Silver Sidelines]

Hello Simon

 

The proof of the pudding is in the eating?

 

The ESU manual  for their family of LokSound v4 chips has a number of sections dealing with analogue DC use.  For example:

 

7.3.1. Analogue DC operation
 
LokSound decoders work on conventional DC layouts. From the
factory, load compensation is active. This provides smooth control
of your locomotives even at low speeds (in DC mode as well).
Since load compensation requires about 3 – 4 Volts as „base voltage“
you must turn the throttle further than normal (=locomotives
without decoder) before the locomotive starts moving.

 

My understanding is that LokSound v3.5 and v4 all work on analogue DC (Hornby TTS does not).  As to the type of 'analogue DC' I cannot answer but the ESU manual simply uses the term conventional DC layouts.  Others will correct me but I believe that most Gaugemaster analogue controllers (with or without brake simulator) use a pulsed output where the voltage is held constant at around 14v DC and power to the engine varied by adjusting the frequency of the pulses.  Using the brake simulator function lowers the maximum power output with the Gaugemaster DS and P controllers and my experience when driving a Digital Sound locomotive there is better control with the brake simulator switched off.

 

I would say given my own experience and the details provided by ESU that sound chips work on analogue DC.

 

Regards

 

Ray

[G-BOAF]

So for reasons of 'needing' a particular model detail variant, I recently obtained a DCC Sound fitted Hornby loco (Loksound v4). At present I am using it on analogue (this will doubtless change long term). I have worked out that a quick 'flick' of the reverse switch allows the loco to change direction without interrupting the sound. I presume there is a small capacitor on the chip which carries over charge.

 

BUT is there any risk of damaging the chip by doing this (note I only do this at low voltages - about 40% on a Gaugemaster D)?

 

Also is the relatively frequent on/off cycling in DC, and the resultant rebooting going to damage the chip?

 

Is there anything else I should know about risks of using this chip on DC?

Basically I am trying to work out if, in the medium term, if I should remove the chip until I get a DCC controller.

Edited March 19, 2017 by G-BOAF

[Silver Sidelines]

Hello GB

.BUT is there any risk of damaging the chip by doing this (note I only do this at low voltages - about 40% on a Gaugemaster D)?

 

Also is the relatively frequent on/off cycling in DC, and the resultant rebooting going to damage the chip?..r.

I have been making a lot of use of changing direction whilst leaving the 'sound' powered up (Gaugemaster DS with the simulator switched off). So far no ill effects.  I have also been a bit careless with my control and section switches and have now on numerous occasions run the LokSound engine into sections with a different controller and reverse polarity.  Yes the engine stops but depending how quickly I react and re-establish the correct running conditons it can ofter just pick up where it left off before it stopped.  As part of an ongoing interest in sound on DC I have been measruing track voltages.  Using the Gaugemaster the voltage for normal running  is frequently in the order of ony 10 volts - so half what I understand is being pushed out with digital systems.  Perhaps the lower voltages are protecting the chip?

 

Ray

[Pete the Elaner]

Hello GB

I have been making a lot of use of changing direction whilst leaving the 'sound' powered up (Gaugemaster DS with the simulator switched off). So far no ill effects.  I have also been a bit careless with my control and section switches and have now on numerous occasions run the LokSound engine into sections with a different controller and reverse polarity.  Yes the engine stops but depending how quickly I react and re-establish the correct running conditons it can ofter just pick up where it left off before it stopped.  As part of an ongoing interest in sound on DC I have been measruing track voltages.  Using the Gaugemaster the voltage for normal running  is frequently in the order of ony 10 volts - so half what I understand is being pushed out with digital systems.  Perhaps the lower voltages are protecting the chip?

 

Ray

Are you measuring the track voltage with the motor running? I get the feeling you are.

The voltage is shared proportionally across all resistances: The load (chip/motor), wires & the power supply. When the load resistance is fairly low, the internal resistance of the power supply becomes significant.

You may have 16v in the circuit but 6v of this is being used to push the current through the supply & the wiring, which leaves 10 across the motor.

When you are just measuring the voltage with no load, the voltmeter's internal resistance is very high so virtually all the supply's voltage is applied across the meter.

 

This may sound strange at first but it explains why just testing all parts of a layout for voltage is a poor test of conductivity/reliability.

[Silver Sidelines]

Hi Pete

Are you measuring the track voltage with the motor running? I ..

Measuring the track voltage with no engine running.

 

Full thottle and it might go to 13.5 volts there again if the mains voltage drops it could be as low as 11.5 volts. 

 

Then of course you don't use full throttle.

 

Ray

[paul 27]

I have the Gaugemaster DF controllers  DC Feedback, not sure if  sound would work on Hornby TTS more than likely damage the chips.

Edited November 26, 2017 by paul 27

[Silver Sidelines]

Hello Paul

I have the Gaugemaster DF controllers  DC Feedback, not sure if these would work on Hornby TTS more than likely damage the chips.

Hornby TTS chips will not produce sound on DC although the engines will run perfectly well on Gaugemaster DS.  If I had any doubts about the signal from the feedback controller it is an easy fix to fit an 8 pin blanking plate.

 

Ray

[RAF96]

... not sure if  sound would work on Hornby TTS more than likely damage the chips.

 

See post #28 above...

Rob

[adb968008]

Another quick help question,

 

Ive a 37418 Bachmann factoryfitted ESU sound,

On my DCC programming controller

Cv8 = 151 so i see its ESU.

 

Ive checked CV13 to a value of 1 And CV 29 to a value of 6.

 

However on DC the loco starts the engine sound and shuts down the engine. No movement, no further sound.

Using a Gaugemaster LT to test it on DC, so the controller is good enough.

On DCC its fine, works as it should do.

 

Does anyone have any thoughts on why this wont go, let alone produce sound on DC ? Are my cv’s right for this loco on DC operation ?

 

Thanks in advance.

[RAF96]

Thanks.

So it will work? I'm thinking about getting one of Hornby's new TTS sound model, to run on a small DCC exhibition and my friends DCC layout when I visit, just wanted to if some of the main functions would work on my many layout which is DC. Also just wanted to see if someone had filmed this too, so I could see for myself.

Hornby is very specific that TTS will control speed and direction on DC but that no sound functions will work.

Rob

[Silver Sidelines]

Hello adb

 

Not sure about it being a quick question!

 

Another quick help question,

Ive a 37418 Bachmann factoryfitted ESU sound,
On my DCC programming controller
Cv8 = 151 so i see its ESU.

Ive checked CV13 to a value of 1 And CV 29 to a value of 6.

.....

Does anyone have any thoughts on why this wont go, let alone produce sound on DC ? Are my cv’s right for this loco on DC operation ?
 

 

In the past I have downloaded the relevant Loksound manual from the Loksound website.  Each Bachmann engine seems to be different but moving off and top speed seem very sensitive on analogue to the 'start' and 'top speed' voltages (CVs) - all adjustable using a Sprog.

 

Cheers  Ray

[RAF96]

Bear in mind when using a DCC equipped loco on DC that the decoder has to boot up before it will recognise and pass DC through and this occurs at a specific voltage, usually more than your kick start voltage, hence why these locos seem to need a bit of welly to get them going.

 

Rob

[SDJR7F88]

A 360 Model Railway Tour from the Turret of my 00 Gauge WW1 Armored Train.

Hope you enjoy!