Some very fundamental questions...

[dharma66]

Hi,

 

I'm quite seriously considering modelling a part of the L&YR - probably just after the grouping, but the permanent way would still be L&YR.

 

As I know basically nothing about permanent way, I have quite a few fundamental questions. In fact, there are probably answers that I need, to questions I don't even know that I need to ask (unknown unknowns, to quote...).

 

I've managed to gather some very basic information, such as that 9" trackbed would be in use (I will be building track by hand, so it matters...), but delving into templot has made realise there is WAY more to track than I realised.

 

For example..I thought that all early track was BH, and that FB was relatively recent...but now I think I read somewhere that some pre-grouping companies used FB?

I have also come across an implication that pre grouping way would always use straight switches?

There are all kinds of considerations around the V, timbering at turnouts and crossovers, etc etc.

 

I've tried Googling, but whereas I've found a fair bit of information about signalling (which I've filed away for some time in the distant future!), I can't find much about details of permanent way...not even what some of the terms mean  (gaunt turnouts?).

 

Can anyone recommend any books or websites where I can pickup some of this kind of information?

 

Many thanks

[martin_wynne]

Hi Phil,

 

Try:

 

 

from: http://www.2mm.org.uk/products/trackbook/

 

And:



Well worth a read whatever your prototype: http://gwsg.org.uk/GWSG_Publications.html

 

And:

 

An Approach to Building Finescale Track in 4mm by Iain Rice: http://www.billhudsontransportbooks.co.uk/selected-product.php?prod=an+approach+to+building+finescale+track+in+4mm&pid=866

 

regards,

Martin.

[skipepsi]

Have a look at the L&Y society website if you are serious about modelling the L&Y they have all the info you will need. Good Luck!

[martin_wynne]

gaunt turnouts?

 

Hi Phil,

 

A gaunt turnout has no switch. It is used to terminate a length of gauntletted track:

 

 

regards,

 

Martin.

 

[Dave Searle]

Hi,

 

William Barton Worthington was the Chief Engineer for the L&Y from 1897 to 1905.  In 1900 he presented a report to the International Railway Congress giving details of the permanent way for many UK railway companies, including the L&Y.

 

For details, see the two links to the L&Y on the page at: http://www.oldpway.info/opw_drawings.html#Worthington_1900_drawings

 

Regards,

 

Dave

[dharma66]

Thanks everyone.

@Martin: I've read "Track", but it still leaves me puzzled about many things. I'll read the other suggestions here.

...And thanks for the answer about gaunt turnouts...I'm guessing that "gauntletted track" means that track in your example, where there are two lines kind of overlapping? What would that be used for? Why not have a switch and join the lines?

@Dave: I've visited the L&YR Society site, but couldn't find anything of any detail, so thanks for the link!

[beast66606]

Thanks everyone.

@Martin: I've read "Track", but it still leaves me puzzled about many things. I'll read the other suggestions here.

...And thanks for the answer about gaunt turnouts...I'm guessing that "gauntletted track" means that track in your example, where there are two lines kind of overlapping? What would that be used for? Why not have a switch and join the lines?

@Dave: I've visited the L&YR Society site, but couldn't find anything of any detail, so thanks for the link!

 

Switches cost money, and need moving, and locking and ...

[martin_wynne]

I'm guessing that "gauntletted track" means that track in your example, where there are two lines kind of overlapping? What would that be used for? Why not have a switch and join the lines?

 

Hi Phil,

 

Gauntletted track is used where double tracks are needed to cross a restricted space, typically over a bridge. As Beast says switches would cost money, have moving parts subject to wear and needing regular maintenance, need interlocking with the signals, which in turn means you need a signalbox (or two, if it is a long section), signalmen, ...

 

Gauntletted track is also sometimes used between the switch and crossing of a turnout to make in effect a very long turnout. This would be done to shorten the length of the rodding run needed from the signalbox (the maximum allowed is 350 yards), or to avoid the rodding needing to cross an obstruction such as a swing bridge.

 

Here are some cab views of the gauntletted track on the Boyne viaduct at Drogheda in Ireland. When this bridge was rebuilt in the 1930s it was no longer wide enough for the original double tracks, so they were gauntletted together. I took these pictures on 5th September 1986 -- the track on the bridge is now ordinary flat-bottom single track with power operated switches for the sake of using standard modern equipment.

 

© Martin Wynne

 

© Martin Wynne

 

© Martin Wynne

 

Gauntletted track is quite a rare beast. The main reason for including gaunt turnouts in Templot is because they come in very handy as a source of partial templates in complex formations.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[Grovenor]

If you can get hold of "Modellers Back track" Volume 4 Number 5 for Dec '94/Jan '95 There is a very useful article starting on page 269, "Making Tracks No 7 by Keith Horne" that has clear pictures of L&Y tracks at Blackpool and Southport circa 1920 with a detailed explanation of the trackwork illustrated.

Regards

Keith

[47137]

I'm quite seriously considering modelling a part of the L&YR - probably just after the grouping, but the permanent way would still be L&YR.

 

As I know basically nothing about permanent way, I have quite a few fundamental questions. In fact, there are probably answers that I need, to questions I don't even know that I need to ask (unknown unknowns, to quote...).

 

There is a general reference book on the subject, this is 'Track' by Jim Pike. Published in 2001 by Sutton Publishing. It doesn't contain anything specifically for the L&Y, but it does explain a lot of the features to look out for.

 

- Richard.

[dharma66]

Thanks Richard. The Jim Pike book is available on Kindle, so that'll do for tonight's bedtime reading

[roythebus]

Croydon Tramways use a bit of gauntleted track around Reeves Corner.

[BR60103]

Gaunlets

In the 1960s, Canadian National built a new freight line to go around Toronto. On one bridge over a wide river valley, (Humber River, East branch) they used gauntlet track, I suspect because they only had to build a bridge one track wide. CNR had a lot of single track bridges on the Weston and Halton subs.

I expect that the signalling for this would be just as complicated as if they had used full points.

Some railroads would signal this sort of trackage with a "smashboard" -- a semaphore with a large light wood blade that went quite far into the loading gauge. Any SPAD would leave tangible evidence of who was at fault, as well as an audible warning.

[trisonic]

Hi Phil,

 

A gaunt turnout has no switch. It is used to terminate a length of gauntletted track:

 

regards,

 

Martin.

You can also have a Gauntlet track switch (one into two) with no crossing:

 

One end:

 

© Spookymuse

 

And the other

 

© Spookymuse

 

Before anyone complains about the “wonkiness” of US track these shots were taken from at least half a mile away which compresses everything. 

 

Roselle Park, NJ, USA.

 

I do realize that it would not apply in this case (it’s to keep freight traffic away from a platform edge). It’s still Gauntlet track.

 

Best, Pete.

[corneliuslundie]

Here is an example from the UK, taken in the 1970s somewhere in the March area. As you can see it was done while a bridge was being rebuilt. I am not sure what they did about signalling, but it would have needed the same signalling as a single line section. Sorry about the quality but it was taken through the front window of a DMU from the passenger compartment, so two lots of glass.

[dharma66]

Hi,

 

William Barton Worthington was the Chief Engineer for the L&Y from 1897 to 1905.  In 1900 he presented a report to the International Railway Congress giving details of the permanent way for many UK railway companies, including the L&Y.

 

For details, see the two links to the L&Y on the page at: http://www.oldpway.info/opw_drawings.html#Worthington_1900_drawings

 

Regards,

 

Dave

 

Dave,

 

I tried this link yesterday, and got timeouts whenever I tried.

 

However, to day the site seems to be responding just fine, and the diagrams are absolutely amazing. Exactly the kind of info I was looking for. Many thanks indeed!