If anyone is inclined to question the presence of a Knotty van in Glasgow before the Great War, point them to Lt.-Col. Yorke's report on the accident at Gretna in the early hours of 14 May 1891:

https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/BoT_Gretna1901.pdf.

Wagons in a southbound Caledonian goods train, Gushetfaulds to Carlisle, derailed, fouling the northbound line. (Which way is up, there?) A northbound Sou' Western goods train, Carlisle to College Goods, Glasgow, ran into this; fortunately there were only minor personal injuries but there was much destruction of stock, which is duly listed in the appendix. Damaged vehicles in the GSWR train were all GSWR and MR but the victims in the CR train bear witness to the goods traffic on the WCML: 10 CR, 5 NER, 6 LNWR, 5 L&YR, 1 GWR, and 1 NSR wagon. The latter was No. 2781, perhaps more likely to have been an open than a covered goods wagon.

A useful document Compound, many thanks. Shipbuilding on the Clyde and the commercial development of North west Glasgow in the late 1900s would have made the L&D a busy and varied operation. 

Anyway I just like building wagons..... 

Dave, you say the NSR van is a bit late late for you because it was built in 1911.  The NSR buit similar vans in 1896 which were 9'6" wb as opposed to 10' of the later build. I would imagine that not many people would know the difference.  I built the early version in S7 a few years ago. 

Discreetly drawing attention to the - ahem - colour of the solebars... 

On 27/04/2024 at 05:24, Buhar said:

The obvious load is porcelain, although I suspect that would usually have been crated and sheeted in an open. However, some high quality stuff for fitting out the first class dining rooms on a liner could well warrant a van.

Every Kelvinside mantel had a pair, I'm sure...

The 51L instructions state black solebars, but as ever that might have been an interpretation of a shadow. 

I have tried to discover why the later vans may have had black solebars.

Looking carefully at the 51 L model I note that the W irons do not have crown plates or side washers on the legs. The excellent model by Airnimal of an earlier version does have them. 

Perhaps I am totally wrong but a theory. If the later D9 lacked crown plates that would suggest a wagon with flitched frames.  If so it would be metalwork not woodwork and painted black. 

My researches have drawn a blank, perhaps someone with detailed knowledge of Knotty vans could illuminate the subject ? 

G.F. Chadwick, North Staffordshire Wagons (Wild Swan, 1995) has but one short paragraph on livery:

"The North Stafford goods livery seems yo have been more or less constant throughout the company's history, and like that of several other concerns, was based upon red oxide. However, descriptions of the exact shade used vary from dark red-brown (like the Caledonian and Highland Railways) to purplish red oxide; solebars, headstocks, and corner plates were usually black. Lettering (6 inch to 1912, 14 inch thereafter) was white, originally shaded black; the knot was also white, but had some variation in size and shape."

Most photos in the book show wagons in service, where the gloss has dimmed and it is impossible to detect any differences in colour. However, there are a couple of photos of 3-plank wagons and one of a covered goods, all shinely fresh out of the paint-shop, that do look to support black solebars and headstocks, along with black ironwork generally, not only corner plates.

Sorry to have taken so long to get round to looking that up! 

31 minutes ago, billbedford said:

His answer was "All of them"

A most salutary answer!

I must admit I take debates about the accuracy of wagon liveries with a pinch of salt. As Bill points out it could well vary from new and certainly did with age and repainting. 

Thanks for the research Compound. Seems it is a modelling choice with no absolutely correct answer. 

6 minutes ago, Dave John said:

Thanks for the research 

Not research - no primary sources involved. Simply librarianship.