sulzer27jd
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Posts posted by sulzer27jd
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That's us now got 13 pages of mostly biter comments, often snide and generally unpleasant, simply because someone had the audacity to suggest that the operation of a model railway should probably reflect the standard of the work carried out in making it.
There was an opportunity here for a sensible discussion but as happens so often here, that has been lost in the noise of those who would rather shout someone down than have a reasoned discussion.
J
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Thank you both. Very informative.
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2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:
It depends on the Instructions for that particular station as it is technically two trains in the same signal section.
Thus at some places the requirement would be for the loco at the stop blocks end not to move until the Driver had obtained verbal authority from the Signalman to do so. We had to ensure that was applied at Swansea High St after resignalling because on one morning we had a 350hp shunter moving from the stop blocks towards the platform exit signal a while after the train in front of it had departed and a DMU signalled into that platform in the opposite direction - collision avoided but still rather unsettling for two Drivers.
Interesting. My understanding was that the rules were designed to avoid the engine being there and forgotten about. Perhaps track circuiting would impact on how this operated? In the case you mention, how would the DMU driver know to anticipate a shorter than normal platform? Would that not be two trains in the one section?
Certainly at DTB in mechanical signalling days the starter was promptly returned to danger and the following engine pulled up there.
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7 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:
But that signal must be restored to Danger and cleared again before the train engine goes off to shed or wherever.
It can't just follw the train out before the signalman has got round to putting the lever back.
I didn't say that it would. I said it would come out as far as the platform starter. The signal would be restored, usually during the move, so when the train engine came out as far as that the starter, it wouldn't go beyond that until signalled - obviously.
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This may be of some assistance.
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Remember also that if there is a loco 'trapped' at the far end of the stock , it will follow the ECS out as far as the platform starter. The bays at Dundee Tay Bridge were like your diagram, with outgoing ECS generally heading on the same route as if they were departing and then setting back into the other bay.
John
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17 minutes ago, Blandford1969 said:
How is it in all this talk of accuracy we do not see the reverser being moved from one gear to the other or notched up, how these engines move in mid gear is a Miricle - unless that is of course it is a Pannier which will happily move in mid gear or a flying pig where the regulator more often than not blows by?
How is it as well the trains leave without the guard getting out and giving the right away?
Or the passengers who never move?
The list just keeps growing.
I think everyone accepts there are, in most cases, limitations. That of course was not what was being raised in the OP.
I for one would be grateful for more knowledge on how the real railway operates/operated as I would like to try and show that in my operating.
J
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2 hours ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:
Just another 2p...
I think there's a big difference between model layout operation in an exhibition setting and at home. I know little of the age/interest profile of those attending exhibitions, but I just sense that the majority want to see things moving. I know as I get older my attention span diminishes, whilst those with young children want to see continual movement. Hence, on roundy-round layouts the trains inevitably just circle round and round. There might be sidings on the layout, but very rarely do we see them actually being shunted.
An exhibition, after all, is a show. It's not necessarily a time for deep reflection on prototype operation. Even at Pendon, how often (if ever) are trains shunted into sidings and remarshalled?Similar could be said of differing types of exhibition. A show that is intended for a wide general audience is perhaps more suited to the type of layout with lots of movement etc. Whereas the more specialist shows will perhaps allow a more nuanced approach. The OP was discussing things he noticed on a video taken at Scaleforum, where the hosting society at one time had a strapline of "getting it all right". I would expect the attention to operation at such a show to match the level of detail in the construction of the model. Someone earlier pointed out that we have the ability to select the appropriate 2,3 or 4 bolt chairs, so surely the operation should strive to reflect that degree of authenticity.
One suggestion I would make is to better explain to an audience what is going on. What that train is, why it looks like it does, why is there a sequence of movements and what do they represent. The stopping to recouple before moving coaches is an example. There is a reason for it, so explain it. If I already know, I will skip past that or accept the information as helpful. In these discussion there is often a dig at branch line operation, usually along the lines of, you wouldn't see constant movement on a small branch line. The statement is absolutely correct but one way to overcome that is to simply state the time of day. As one train leaves, the information can be changed to state, "The time is now xxx and the next train is ....." When I operate my own layout I use a sequence rather than a timetable and large chunks of the day are discarded - or used as a coffee break! x
I appreciate the effort that goes into building and presenting layouts at shows and would hate to think that I would discourage anyone from doing so. There is a question as to whether layouts are there to entertain or educate and to what extent to they do either or both. They are not mutually exclusive and helping people understand what they are seeing goes some way at least to informing them why certain things look the way they do. The more one moves towards a fine scale (whatever that means) approach to building the important more it is - I would suggest - to reflect that in the operation. The use of video and YouTube etc is really interesting as it potentially gives a far wider audience and home based layouts have an opportunity to be seen by the public.
John
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13 hours ago, Phil Parker said:
You've watched a tiny amount of operating on YouTube and from this have decided to condem the layouts featured. You know as well as I do, you are setting yourself up for a fall. Those layouts will have been operated for hours, by different people in the team, but you are condeming them on the basis of a few seconds.
However, I look forward to seeing what sanctions you propose for those who fail to meet your standards.
Just remember that there are human beings on the recieving end of your brickbats. Anyone commenting might like to consider how those people will feel reading this and moderate thier tone accordingly.
Surely, even on RMWeb, the poster is entitled to an opinion.
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On 01/09/2022 at 17:47, Brian said:
Thanks for the replies so far. I have used printed aluminium and my existing panel has that as the top. (Dibond or its equivalent) Panel
I was asking if anyone has used printed self adhesive vinyl which is considerably cheaper as I'm making two panels. 😉
The challenge with self adhesive vinyl is getting it applied by hand to the surface without any bubbles or distortion. It can be pre-applied to either a foam (hard foam) backing to give a rigid sheet or to composite aluminium. There are lots of options available.
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Seems to be a case of measure once and cut twice!
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On 08/09/2022 at 20:07, landscapes said:
I assume he was a Haymarket Man?
Very much so, yes.
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100 was of course previously the locomotive of the author Toram Beg (Norman McKillop), who wrote extensively in the railway magazines in the 50's and 60's. He was a great advocate of keeping driver with engine, at least for the top link, which he writes about in one of his books, Enginemen Elite. Well worth a read.
John
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On 30/08/2022 at 22:34, landscapes said:
Tonights photo we see A2/3 60511 Airborne passing Haymarket on its way to Waverley Station, the MPD had borrowed it to take an express further north and we see it on it's return.
A RTR GKing/Bachmann A2 conversion.
Regards
David
When borrowed northbound, she would have gone as far as Dundee Tay bridge and been replaced. A lay-over on shed (very often the Caledonian shed was used for this) and then been an engine change for an up express.
Also - just for info, it was very common for up expresses from Aberdeen to have the restaurant car next to the engine.
Lovely work
John
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I can print on vinyl up to 700mm wide and any length and can supply acrylic or aluminium as required. DM if you want to discuss details.
John
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5 hours ago, 62613 said:
Before pooling, there wouldn't be any back loading of foreign wagons, would there? Say a consignment of engine parts was being sent from say, North Eastern Marine on Tyneside to Silley Cox in Falmouth; the load would surely go in a NE wagon of some sort, if it went by rail, and the NE wagon would have to be sent back empty to the nearest point on the NE system when unloaded. Am I correct, even with this poor example?
Yes, with a couple of caveats I suppose. If sent back to the NE it would generally return via the same route to the nearest point. The other thing is that the transport costs would be part of the contract between the (in this case) manufacturer and the purchaser. If the purchaser had either a preferred carrier or access to their own vehicles then they may sent the empty to collect the goods, in which case the empty journey would be on the way out and not on the way back.
Many companies had sales agents and offices in foreign towns and cities for the purpose of generating business.
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1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:
I've justified NBR and G&SWR wagons in MR trains as these were the MR's Scottish partners; L&Y and CR wagons could plausibly turn up in LNWR goods trains.
It is also not just the fact that you have foreign vehicles, it's the type of vehicle as well. A product being sent from a manufacturer to a customer would require transport and that could in theory lead to any railway's wagon being anywhere on the network. However there would need to be a justifiable (economic) reason why for an example a foundry casting from one end of the UK would need to pass many other, far more local foundries on its way to the customer. Of course there were reasons why a wagon or van might end up a long way from home but as modellers we should probably accept that there needs to be some kind of justification for it.
John
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The preferred non-water extinguisher later became the BCF type. They may be remembered as usually small bright green extinguishers often provided where fuel or electrical equipment might be vulnerable to fire. Unfortunately the Bromo-chloro-di-floro-methane contents depleted the ozone layer faster than a herd of cows drinking Guiness and they were all withdrawn from common use.
J
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6 hours ago, Regularity said:
This realisation is something that increasingly chimes with me, albeit with different prototypes in mind. I mean, how many trains can you run at one time? But also, what happens if one breaks down? So two locos is a minimum, and two each for passenger (where a railmotor counts as one, and the other can stand in on freight if necessary) and freight (where one at least might be “mixed traffic”) is good.
My first foray into finescale was a joint project with another modeller. The result was a very small 'generic' station which by substituting the contents of our stock boxes could be used to run a variety of different stock. At one outing we cycled through a routine of Highland Railway, LMS steam, BR steam, green diesels, blue diesels and then started again.
The requirements were, 2 engines, 2 coaches and a dozen wagons. It worked well as a concept. The 2 coaches were actually replaced by a railbus in the green diesel period.
John
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25 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:
It is. Very much so.I assumed that Sulzer27 was using hyperbole to make a point.
I really should know by now on this forum!!
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21 minutes ago, Hobby said:
Well he's been sacked, wonder who's next for the poisoned chalice?
Ronald Koeman hopefully. #MOT
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15 hours ago, Torper said:
An entertaining afternoon in the Highlands today. Nine games, 54 goals, and no prizes for guessing who shipped 10 of these. Nice to see brechin City, relegated to the Highland League at the end of last season, in a strong second place. Which raises the question - for a supporter, is it better to have your team in a lower league doing well than in a higher league doing badly? So far this season Brechin have won 13 games, which is only two less than 15 they managed in the last four seasons combined.
DT
Local teams on top yesterday DT. Montrose up to 3rd with a good away win and the mighty Loons running riot.
J
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It's notable that the routes to Aberdeen are not electrified. You know, the "oil capitol of Europe" or in other words the place that pays for everything else.
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Beautiful work as always David. I must say though, the photos are so much better without the mountain backscene. It just stands out as wrong when I see it and detracts from your fabulous work.
John
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Acceptable standards at exhibitions
in Modelling musings & miscellany
Posted · Edited by sulzer27jd
Of course I could ignore this thread, as suggested by @woodenhead and no doubt that is what I will end up having to do. My question then is, how do we learn? I was quite interested in this topic as operation is something I would like to understand better. I may not be alone in that desire. I never knew the steam era at all and my current project is set over 100 years ago so I need to draw on the knowledge of others. Having that knowledge available seems to be a good thing. I don't though, particularly want to wade through the stream of destructive comments, the "ah buts" and the "what aboutaries"
I of course accept @Phil Parker that others disagree with me. I really don't have a problem with that. Where my issue lies is not with contrary viewpoints but with simply destructive comments that seem intended to belittle someone, mostly the OP (although to be fair he seems a quite resilient character). Language is of course powerful. In your statement above you determine that the OP has watched "a video" (singular) and it appears that this makes his views less valid than those on the other side who "actually carry out the operations". I suspect that both statements are probably not entirely accurate but it is certainly not a good look for an Administrator to be quite so partizan.
You may not agree with what I said but I would ask that you point out exactly where my comment was either snide or unpleasant.
Perhaps, if I am still allowed, I could draw the conversation back to operations.
If those of us who care about the accurate operation of models (and I absolutely accept that no everyone does) are to improve the way we run our models, how do we learn those practices from a long gone era?
If we consider as being appropriate;
Then as modellers we will go to various lengths to get accurate information. People for example, join scale societies to garner a greater understanding of how that chosen railway worked. We may pour over maps looking for features of the line. Others build, alter, rebuild, renumber and re-livery stock to make it more suitable for the chosen location. If (and I am just choosing one example) you model an A3, you may (or may not of course) take into account the correct livery at a given point in time. That being the case you will probably also consider it's allocation, if it were an A1 or A3, the boiler type, the dome, the tender, if it were right or left hand drive, the chimney and smoke deflectors, amongst other things. Yet we are led to believe that wanting to operate your layout as per the prototype is somehow less valid.
On layouts we often see track work where there are no trap points, facing point locks or signals and I can accept that for the builder that is where they have decided to find their balance of accuracy. I have watched many layouts where there were glaring errors if you assessed it by the rule book but have enjoyed them none-the-less. It certainly didn't invalidate them as an exhibit or entertainment. This returns us to the point though, that if you are setting out to make the most accurate representation of a particular place or scene, then surely how that is displayed matters both on terms of the static scene and the moving scene.
There are of course compromises in every scale and these vary between scales. Three link coupling being a good example. Part of this discussion would inevitably and rightly raise the topic of automatic versus hand uncoupling and how do we balance the lack of fidelity inherent in both approaches and all the various systems. That discussion/debate should be encouraged, I would suggest. I am currently putting door handles on coach doors that will never open, for passengers that don't exist. Crazy? possibly, maybe even probably. The point is I want it to look better with them, than without. But I also want them to represent a scale model of a train. One that will operate in a way that represents how they would have worked.
Now, I may well be trying to turn my tanker in a canal but I would hope that there could be a discussion around how model railway operation, at home, at exhibition or - as we are seeing increasing - online via video could attempt to better match the level of detail and realism that has effectively become to norm. We are where we are in those terms, with some unbelievably realistic and beautiful models, because at some point someone was brave enough to say the lichen trees are really not that great at being scale trees. That perhaps scratch building your station would be more accurate than another Ratio or Superquick kit. That building your own track work might be more accurate than RTR. That having signals that work and that in some cases can even bounce is better than having them fixed. So maybe allowing time for your pretend fireman to couple up the pretend brake pipes and allow the pretend brakes to release it better than just bumping into them and shoving them into a platform. Perhaps.
J