Rhydgaled

Apparently yes; I was told earlier (I think in this topic) that there should be R40156, R40156A and R40156B which should give you three of the ten vehicles (nine coaches plus the DVT) needed to make a full mark 4 set. We think/hope that the descriptions given on the image are incorrect (coach letters were different and the SV (kitchen) was first class not standard) and the actual models will be correct.

Oh dear... I just found this topic after placing an order with The Model Centre (being the only place I could find with all the other items I was after in stock, and I'm keen to minimise the number of deliveries) which included a pack of 36-055 Bachmann OO Gauge DMU Couplings Straight (x10) which they listed as "On Order With Supplier". I was thinking they'd get stock within a few weeks. Is my order (5 items including these couplings) going to be stuck with them for months?

I knew the first class and buffet were (at least initially, I forget whether they still are) known as PO (Pullman Open) and SV (Service Vehicle) but do sometimes refer to them as FO and RFO either because of a momentary lapse of that knowledge, or because I'm not sure others would know what I was on about, or (in the case of the buffet), I want to be clear regarding the classification of the seating (they were of course changed from first to standard at the Mallard refurb, but SV doesn't tell you that). I didn't know the standard class vehicles were listed as TO (I think I've seen them listed as TSO or SO elsewhere, but that might be from listings written by people like me who didn't know better). Given the lack of an 'S' for 'Standard' and the lack of a 'T' for Trailer on the PO and SV then my guess is that you are correct and the 'T' stands for Tourist on the mark 4s. Is York to Northallerton double-track or three/four tracks? And has it ever been closed for engineering? My guess would be that, if it did, the obvious diversionary route would be via Leeds and Skipton and from there dragged via Settle to Carlisle unless there is a north-facing junction at Carnforth where they could join the WCML. To get a drag over to Manchester you would need the ECML to be shut further south still and either go Grantham to Stoke via Nottingham and Derby or perhaps Retford to Manchester via Sheffield if there are junctions facing the right way. Interesting; I hadn't thought that they might use 801s via Carlisle. I'd have thought it would be exclusively 800s with the 801s restricted to London - Leeds/Newcastle. Going back to WCML diverts, assuming it is at least four tracks south of where the Northampton route rejoins the main trunk, there are effectively two seperate electrified routes south of Crewe which presumably means they can keep at least two tracks available throughout most engineering work. Unless there was an all-lines block at Rugby...

Thanks for the reply, but how do they compare to the power cars? What I found was that one of my Limby power cars (and presumably my other power cars as well) had wheels around 11.5mm in diameter (excluding flanges), on my lima mark 3 coaches this measurement is 11.3mm and the Hornby tooled slam-door scale-length mark 3 had 12.6mm wheels. I took the couplings off the Hornby coach and a Limby power car to remove the gap between the coaches created by the tension locks and the gangways lined up with the Lima wheels on the coach but not with the Hornby ones.

I did wonder whether to mention the duplicated coach in R30081 as well, because I searched Flickr for a pic of the real thing and that coach doesn't appear to be duplicated there. Seems to be an 11-car set though, which I think makes sense given the set number (if I recall correctly the 11-car sets are subclassed 390/1). Perhaps you're right and R30081 is a 4 pack, with Hornby producing it as a 9-car with two vehicles missing / to follow in 2022.

That LGBTQ+ Pendo appears to be a 10-car set (5-cars in R30081 plus individual coaches R40196, R40197, R40198, R40199 and R40200). What am I missing?

Have Hornby EVER released a scale-length mark 3 TS, TF or 3-window buffet WITHOUT Central Door Locking (CDL) lights? Does their tooling allow them to do that? The recent GWR train set one (the only Hornby mark 3 I have) appears to have the moulded detail for the CDL lights but these have not been decorated as such (they are just painted the same green as the rest of the body). If Hornby were going to produce it without painting the CDL lights orange you'd think they'd use a body tooling without them if they had the option of doing so. Other than serious modellers or rail fans I'm not sure the need for TSO(E) or TGS will necessary be appreciated. If I recall correctly, for many years I was completely unaware that these vehicles existed so at the time if I had a layout big enough for a 2+5 set (but no more) I would have been perfectly happy with a TFO, a buffet and 3 TSO vehicles with no TGS or TSO(E). Thus those 'end vehicles' are likely to sell slightly less well than the buffet and DVT. Couldn't Hornby book production slots with the factories for another batch of coaches to follow a while after the intial release but with the ratio of coach types / running numbers in the follow-up batch not specified until sales figures for the first batch start coming in? Was the HST DVT broken or was the 89 incompatible with the DVT since all your pics show the 89 coupled to the power car and not at the other end. Also, I note that there appears to be a mark 1 or mark 2 at the rear on the last pic (retained above), might that be a barrier vehicle with a normal TGS used instead of the buffer-fitted version? I think the bird was there (breifly) on 91119 when it was restored to Swallow livery recently. Within a few weeks it had disapeared again. Ah, ok fair enough. In that case they have enough product codes for a full ECML set, still dubious about the TfW offering though. I may be talking rubish here; I'm certainly not old enough to have memories of the early days (and indeed I expect the only IC225 I ever saw in Swallow livery before the real things had received GNER livery was my train set one), but for some reason I think they were ordered as 8 coaches but this was soon increased to 9. I read somewhere that there were also a number of 'Pullman' sets to start with (same 8 or 9 coaches, but two of them were buffet cars rather than the normal one buffet). The 'Pullman' sets may have lasted until the Mallard refurb, but I've no idea. As for the coach lettering, the same range of letters seems to have been applied across the range announcement, even the TfW set(s): Note at the top it lists coaches B, C, D, E, F, H, K, L and M, plus the DVT. If we assume Hornby will be producing two full TfW rakes, rather than a fictional 9-car TfW set, then there should be two DVTs (not one), two kitchens (not one) , four SOs (not five) and two FOs (not three) and so the announcement is incorrect here*. If so, the same mistake has probably been made with the Swallow liveried rake. * Also, there is only one SO with an accessible toilet and one FO with an accessible toilet listed. Two TfW rakes will either need two of one and none of the other, or two of both (I'm not sure whether the TfW sets have a first class accessible toilet or a standard class one, or both).

Are you able to measure the diameter of the wheels (excluding flanges) and let us know what you find? I have found that my slam-door Hornby mark 3 (the GWR train set one) has different diameter wheels to the power cars meaning the corridor connectors are at different heights and don't line up properly.

Oh, I've fallen into a null trap have I? I make it nine vehicles as follows R40152 R40153 R40154 R40156A R40156B R40191 R40159 R40160 R40161 If there is also a R40156<null> (ie. neither A nor B) then you are correct that there are enough vehicles to make up a rake but I assumed that the product with A and B versions would only be two running numbers not three.

I've now managed to identify Hornby's version of the Bachmann DMU couplings, X10632 Electrotren NEM Close Coupling, but still cannot find a cranked version for the HST power cars. Does anyone know whether a) the Hornby Electrotren couplings are compatible with Bachmann's DMU couplings and b) whether there is a cranked version of the Electrotren couplings for use with Hornby's IC125 power cars (if not, what are modellers supposed to use with the R4780 and R4852 TGS coaches, which appear to be supplied with Electrotren couplings?)? Regarding the Ratio wagons, I have now found Hornby X6879 (Class 67 Accessory Bag) on Peters Spares. Apparently, this includes X2 Large Couplings, X2 Small Couplings, Dummy Hooks, Vacuum Pipes plus other small parts. Does anyone know the part number for the large couplings as I think they might be what I'm after for my wagons? I have no need of the other items in the accessory bag so don't want to have to buy the whole lot.

It mentions coach B (which I think for recent liveries at least is the TSO(E)) but then again there appears to be only 8 Rxxxx numbers for each livery (one with A and B versions) when there should be 10 vehicles for a full rake (9 passenger vehicles plus the DVT makes 10) so maybe the TSO(E) is indeed missing. Very strange that 8 Rxxxx numbers giving nine different vehicles seem to be listed for the TfW mark 4s as well. Since I believe TfW will have 12 coaches and 3 DVTs it is in theroy possible that Hornby are releasing enough to have two full rakes with only one duplicated running number but it seems odd to do that for TfW while modellers wanting the ECML liveries will need to renumber (or omit one coach) to get a full rake without duplication.

No new running numbers / liveries for the upcoming retooled 91s though (eg. 91110)?

Blast; that sounds like the 4 window buffet is a right bodge job which is a shame as I wanted one in a Swallow or Merlin IC125. Shame there wasn't a Lima 4-window buffet for Hornby to use as I could then look for the Lima one 2nd hand. At least you've saved me some time looking for one by letting me know that Lima never made it in the first place, so thanks for that. Maybe I should try blanking off windows on my Hornby TSO to make a 4-window buffet (I'm unlikely to do so though as I've never attempted anything like that before, although the coach is essentially a freebe since the train set it came in cost me no more than a pair of Railroad power cars). All points to the need for 'one mark 3 range to rule them all'...

Sorry, I assumed the buffet changes were just interiors and livery, I didn't know any external changes were made. As for the TOE, I tried to steer clear of that by saying that the existing TSO/FO and buffet were reasonable - that implies the TOE isn't (because it doesn't exist) but, as fiftyfour fiftyfour said I don't know whether that would be straightforward production-wise though. So the Hornby 4-window RFM is actually Lima's 3-window buffet hacked about a bit; meaning Hornby could no longer produce the original Lima 3-window buffet? Where do the Lima ones win out over the Hornby scale-length ones? Is it just that Lima did the TGS to allow a matching rake? One of my concerns with mixing Lima and Hornby in a rake is that roof ribs might look different (if I recall correctly Oxford's are rather under nourished) and gangway connection floors/rooves may ride at different heights (although flushglazing is something I probably would notice more if I were to mix them). If you are concerned with correct interiors, I think my Lima TSOs both shipped with 2+1 (FO) interiors, so they aren't correct for any TSO are they? My comments on the Mark 3 sleepers weren't a 'wishlist'; I'm not particularly interested in a model of them and probably wouldn't buy. What I might buy mark 3 wise is correctly done Swallow mark 3s with a matching TGS and a re-run of DVT 82146 in EWS management train livery (without the coaches and 67 that it was bundled with last time). I'm just thinking that a 'one mark 3 range to rule them all' would ultimately require alot of models so I was wondering whether it would make sense to start with the sleepers; how many different vehicle types are required? A full mark 3 range would need (I'm no expert on mark 3s, I've probably missed some and misplaced others): Mark 3a (SO/FO, Buffet(s), SLE? / SLEP?, etc.) Mark 3b (DVT, FO, BFO?, etc.) Mark 3h (TGS, TSO/TFO, TRUB/TRFB, TRSB/TRB, etc.) (IC125 coaches) Mark 3p (DVT, FO/SO, Buffet) (Chiltern Plug Door coaches (and modified DVT)) Mark 3s (TGS, TSO/TFO, TCC, etc.) (sliding door coaches) You'd never get all of that in one year's range, but which vehicles do you pick out to start the ball rolling? In terms of quality, the Lima and Hornby scale-length coaches are adequate in themselves, but the lack of consistency between them (and missing variants, and the DVT looking out of place with it's different (although probably better) gangway connection) is a cause for concern. Depends on the branch line. Some are operated with through services to far flung destinations, rather than forcing passengers to change onto mainline services at the junction. In this case, rather than the same unit or two shuttling back and forth you need a whole pie of them with different running numbers (which makes Hornby's 153 rather expensive, shame they don't have a Railroad version). That's part of the reason I've picked the era I have (end of BR and early days of TOCs); rather than just different numbers I can have Regional Railways and various different Wales & West advertising liveries.

Lima's mark 3s certainly beat the Oxford Mark 3a hands down; the underframe skirt on the Oxford model is the wrong shape. Regarding buffets, is the 4 window buffet something Lima made in a range of liveries (I asked this before (in a specific topic) but have no answers yet)? Of course. The Hornby (scale length) slam-door and Lima mark 3s I have are far more similar to each other than either appears to be to the photos I've seen of Oxford's mark 3s. Even so, I'm not sure Hornby mark 3s and the Lima TGS will sit well together in a rake (the Hornby is a different livery). I'm not sure whether to stick my Hornby TSO on Ebay and try and source 2nd hand Lima items or whether it would look ok if I resprayed it into to the desired livery (which the Lima ones are in). What are/were the formations of the Night Riviera and Caledonian Sleeper with mark 3 stock? I know the Night Riviera has a mark 3 BFO (which if you had the CADs for a TGS and an appropriate LHCS mark 3 (3b I assume, or is the BFO mark 3a?) would probably be only a minor job on the CAD front) but what else do you need? What mark 2s did Caledonian Sleeper use; 2d, 2e or 2f? I'd agree that the existing mark 4 TSO/FO and Buffet are probably ok with a revamp (mainly bogie changes, eg. NEM pockets and remove parts that should be body-mouted instead) but the cab end of the DVT needs alot of work (the inner end needs to match the coaches).

I'm trying to work out what replacement couplings to order for my Lima and Hornby (Railroad) IC125(s) and Ratio kit-built wagons. With the original tension locks supplied with the kit, my Ratio kit-built wagons appeared to hate 2nd radius curves (including Setrack points) which I think was a least partly due to the couplings (which were rather stiffer than the tension locks supplied with modern RTR). On the advice of this topic I have ordered a pack of Parkside's PA34 Mounting Blocks For Bachmann NEM Coupling Pockets but the pockets only seem to be supplied with Bachmann's DMU couplings or narrow tension locks (I have an Airfix RTR wagon with narrow tension locks and these seem rather unrealiable) - can I get them with wider tension locks (my best guess is that I need an uncranked version of the tension locks Hornby supplied on my RailRoad Blue & Grey IC125 power cars)? For the IC125, I think the DMU couplings would be better than the tension locks supplied (on the basis that they provide great close coupling between the vehicles of my Bachmann 158s (old tooling)). However, I can only find the DMU couplings cranked down, whereas the Railroad power cars have couplings which are cranked up. Maybe Hornby have something suitable since recent batches of their slam-door mark 3s appear to have (from internet photos) a version of the Bachmann DMU couplings.

It's hard to tell from internet photos, without having seen either model in the flesh, but from what I've read and the photos I've seen on the internet Hornby's updated mark 3s (the sliding door ones) seem to be a better product overall than the Oxford ones. In particular, the underframe skirt/box on the Oxford model appears much too boxy in one or two pictures (again, it is really hard to tell from internet photos whether Hornby's model also suffers from this) but I think a new mark 3 range based on Hornby's CADs for the sliding door model would probably be the better bet. They have both the slam door and the LHCS-style roof vent detail in the sliding door CADs already; the only thing I can think of that might be missing is the toilet windows. I would like to see a consistent range of IC125 trailers, whether that is done by making an all-new range, making a new TGS and 4-window buffet to match the existing Hornby TSO and 3-window buffet or reviving the Lima tooling of the TSO and 3-window buffet to provide a full range of Limby mark 3s. But, with the underframe on the Oxford model being the wrong shape, I hope they don't go down that route. I have both a Lima train pack and the recent Hornby GWR train set (which I believe is a pure Hornby mark 3 despite the Limby power cars) and both the Lima and Hornby mark 3s look like a mark 3 to me, I'm just not sure they would sit well together if you mix them in a rake. If they do take the all-new range approach, the one problem that seemed to be flagged up on the Hornby sliding door mark 3 topic was the cast wheels with oversized flanges which were a problem (perhaps only on code 75 track). Do the Oxford mark 3s have better wheels? If so, perhaps the solution is a range based on (and including) the Hornby sliding door mark 3s but using the wheels from the Oxford model.

If they do 91110 in Battle Of Britain guise I might order that (without mark 4s) for a display shelf. Other than that I agree; not much point in a 91 without mark 4s to go with it (which is why, if on the full size railway the 125 group branches out into mark 4s I'd almost certainly donate). Battle of Britain class 91? Have I missed it or are you referring to the Model Rail limited edition done with the old tooling (which I was tempted by, but the fakeness of the lights on the old tooling is such a let down - that and the pantograph are the only things I want to upgrade on my 1990s Swallow liveried train set (plus perhaps adding cantrail lining on the TSOs to match the buffet and sold-separately TSO)).

I understand that Hornby only tooled two versions of their scale-length mark 3 coaches (excluding the new sliding-door ones): 3-window buffet (TRUB/TRFB) First Open / Standard Open (same bodyshell for both as per the real thing) Lima produced at least the following: TGS First Open / Standard Open SLE / SLEP (are these the same or different, and if the latter did Lima produce both?) Did Lima also produce multiple types of buffet? When looking on Ebay for Merlin coaches, I've found some 3-window buffets (TRUB/TRFB) which are captioned as Lima products. However, when Hornby obtained Lima's tooling they started to produce 4-window RFM/TRSB/TRB mrk3 buffets. Did Lima produce these or did Hornby modify Lima's TRUB/TRFB tooling? The reason I'm asking is that I'd like a 4-window buffet (TRB I think) and was wondering what liveries they have been produced in.

Both are listed as feedback on the page I linked to earlier: The relevant sections of that article read as follows: The Hornby R965 controller: "is a feedback type that uses a thyristor (or SCR) as an electronic element switching a rectified but unfiltered source of dc, at line frequency." The HM2000 controller: "It is clear from observing the output waveforms below that it is a thyristor-feedback design, like the Hornby basic R965 or Gaugemaster feedback designs." and "It exhibits some of the heating characteristic of a PWM design. It has a modest degree of feedback"

Are these cast wheels the same as those used on the RailRoad class 395, which also has brake disc detail? For some reason there are three different sets of class 395 wheels listed by Hornby as spares, two of which (this one and this one) look the same to me but have different prices (the third set is the motor-bogie wheels). If the class 395 wheels are better than the ones fitted on the mark 3s, would the 395 wheels be suitable for use on future mark 3 releases?

Thanks, I had better not risk it with my old feedback controllers then. That will make making a decision easier since it's now a clear choice between Bachmann's 8750 in lined black or waiting for them to do a 64xx in some form of GWR green with a brass safety valve cover.

When the 'guises' are settled, will images of each version replace the photos of the real thing on the 'shop' web pages? I'm interested in one model, the preserved 1638 in either the 'semi-fictitious' GWR green or entirely fictitious BR lined black (with early crest). I'd rather have the latter, but it would mean lining it myself (scary thought) and probably renumbering so I haven't decided yet. If I do go for black, I'd be after an unweathered model with a brass safety valve cover and given the use of the same real photo on several of the products offered it's not obvious which ones are in that condition.

Thanks for the reply; however I doubt my HM2000 is the same thing as your 'H&M Walkabout' controller and both the HM2000 and the Hornby R965 (which I think are the Hornby train set controllers I have - they certainly look like that) are listed as feedback controllers here. From reading the coreless motor threads I've found (which I struggle to understand if I'm honest), it seems that there's a few things that can kill a coreless motor, one being feedback controllers (depending on the width of the pulses said feedback controllers produce) and another being stalling the motor. It just sounds a bit risky to use coreless motors, unless a modern DCC chip is used (and I'm not sure if that would address the stalling issue - but then I'm not using DCC anyway so that doesn't matter to me).

Do these have coreless motors? I'm trying to decide between a 1366, 64xx or 8750 and this could be a deciding factor; I am non-DCC and I fear my controllers (HM2000 and Hornby's old train set one) would damage/destroy a coreless motor so would avoid those.