Memphis32 Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Edit: title changed to match the conclusion of the first few posts. I'm launching myself into a long-term project to model a bit of mainline on the Rheingold Express route (cliche'd and expensive, I know!). I'd like ideas for a small station on the route near Basel, so both german and swiss stock can be run. A station that closed would be fine, as a what-if can always be found! The express doesn't need to stop there!! Ideally rural, so minimal changes to the surroundings between the 50's and 90's Also I've been looking for resources for track plans - old European maps don't seem to have the detail that OS maps had! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memphis32 Posted July 28, 2015 Author Share Posted July 28, 2015 Thanks - that's something I would never have thought of! Sticking with the 50's end, I believe the Rheingold was hauled by german steam then by swiss electrics - I'm guessing they swapped at Basel, which would be impossible to model! Would there be any chance the German loco would have taken it further, maybe a failed swiss loco? I'm really keen to keep that in, as the cream/blue livery is so nice. A thought on the OHLE clearances - do the dome-roofed Rheingold cars fit under swiss catenary? To give some context of my reasons - As a child, I lived in Switzerland '89 to '92, and was bought a Roco Re 4/4 IV when we left, and Germany '92 to '97, and was bought a Roco BR 52 when we left there. My memories of Switzerland usually involved fancy modern trains, and of Germany, transport museums with massive, complicated-looking steam locos. If I can put together a believable scenario that can host each of those (not at the same time!) then I'll be happy! I've already got a large UK-based project, and would like another layout to put the other side of the garage (when I have one!), so don't really want two more layouts! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold DaveF Posted July 28, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 28, 2015 If you mean this type of dome roofed coach then yes they fit in Switzerland. The photo was taken when one was in use on the Wilhelm Tell Express over the Gotthard. At the time I believe they were owned by Reiseburo Mittel Thurgau. Wassen Re6/6 northbound Wilhelm Tell Express Locarno to Flüelen 29th July 1988 C9693 David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memphis32 Posted July 29, 2015 Author Share Posted July 29, 2015 Having thought long and hard while hanging up the washing to dry, the next best would be a small station on the west or east Rhine lines - quite a way north of where I was living, but still reasonably familiar. My UK layout is flat, so I'd like something on the side of a hill, which those lines are ideal for. The only track plan I've found is Boppard, which is too big - places like St Goar look to be ideal, but searches for a Gleisplan aren't fruitful so far. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted July 29, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 29, 2015 There tends to be rather less variety in trackplans on the continent. So you can probably safely go with something generic. The usual is just a double-ended siding in front of the station building for goods with just one or two sidings coming off that. Not terribly interesting if shunting is your thing but your main priority seems to be the trains running past. If short of space, one end of the double-ended siding can be off-scene beyond an overbridge (with suitable MAN/Mercedes bus, of course). Not clear if you want layout to be fixed or portable. If portable, take a look at the Barrow-in-Furness club's HO layout. Baseboards are built at an angle to reduce the amount of scenery needed to represent the hillside. Saves massively on bulk to transport. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memphis32 Posted July 29, 2015 Author Share Posted July 29, 2015 I think I've seen that one or something similar before, but had forgotten, thanks! My current project is essentially all shunting (link in signature), but don't just want a double mainline through countryside, so a couple of sidings sounds good. I'd like it to be reasonably authentic, for my own peace of mind (I doubt anyone who could tell the difference will ever see it!), so if no plan is forthcoming, I'll see whether trawling through photos helps. At least one scenic break ought to be one of the folly-themed tunnel mouths! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brigo Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 A useful site to peruse for track plans is :- http://www.sporenplan.nl/html_nl/sporenplan/start.html The content does vary in graphical terms but some of the older German and Austrian plans are good. The Rheingold coaches including the dome are currently painted in blue and cream and used on excursions although I do not believe they have been modelled. http://www.rheingold-zug.com/ I notice one of the excursions is to Lindau which is one station in Germany visited by Swiss and Austrian electric locos. If I remember correctly the DB route to Lindau was and maybe still is diesel only. Brian G. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memphis32 Posted July 29, 2015 Author Share Posted July 29, 2015 Many thanks for those - Läufelfingen was on my shortlist before the mention of swiss/german incompatibility, and I'd wondered what the track in the roadway might once have been - there seems to have been a small turntable in the middle. Has it been made double-track since the 50's, as it seems to be now? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brigo Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 Many thanks for those - Läufelfingen was on my shortlist before the mention of swiss/german incompatibility, and I'd wondered what the track in the roadway might once have been - there seems to have been a small turntable in the middle. Has it been made double-track since the 50's, as it seems to be now? http://www.sporenplan.nl/html_nl/sporenplan/sbb/basel.html If you look at the bottom of the graphic towards the right you will see that Läufelfingen had quite an extensive track plan at onetime. It may be a little clearer here than on Google https://map.geo.admin.ch/?lang=en&X=249114.33&Y=631513.30&zoom=12&topic=ech&bgLayer=ch.swisstopo.swissimage Brian G. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memphis32 Posted August 3, 2015 Author Share Posted August 3, 2015 I think I'm set on the Rhine-based idea, as it's an area I've been to a few times - I haven't been to the far north east of Switzerland, as I was based on the north shore of Lac Léman. Slight downer was finding out that the blue and cream Rheingold livery wasn't in use in the '50s, it was just plain blue skirted coaches. I think rule no. 1 may have to apply... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted August 3, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 3, 2015 A useful site to peruse for track plans is :- http://www.sporenplan.nl/html_nl/sporenplan/start.html The content does vary in graphical terms but some of the older German and Austrian plans are good. The Rheingold coaches including the dome are currently painted in blue and cream and used on excursions although I do not believe they have been modelled. http://www.rheingold-zug.com/ I notice one of the excursions is to Lindau which is one station in Germany visited by Swiss and Austrian electric locos. If I remember correctly the DB route to Lindau was and maybe still is diesel only. Brian G. Lindau is a fascinating location. I always wondered, when I lived in Paris, why there were through sleeping cars to such a small place. An attractive resort on Lake Constance (Bodensee) and at the very south-western tip of Bavaria, the station which is a terminus on an island (a bit like Venice) sees trains from a wide variety of locations in Bavaria with a few IC services from further afield. The lines in from the East (Austria) are electrified but the German routes, surprisingly, are not. So there has to be locomotive changes from Austrian/Swiss electric power to German diesel. Overall, the service is very intensive with up to ten trains an hour departing from the eight platforms. There is a current scheme (agreed back in 2009) to electrify the German routes and provide a new through station at Lindau on the mainland. This would speed up the Munich - Zurich service. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Lindau, in steam days, also hosted the Bavarian S3/6 Pacifics to the extent that, by the time of their withdrawal, they were more-or-less synonymous with the line. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memphis32 Posted August 3, 2015 Author Share Posted August 3, 2015 I've just travelled the length of both Rheinstrecke(n?) several times, thanks to google earth, and there seems to be a theme to the station layouts (as has been mentioned!) - there is a facing crossover one end, a trailing one at the other, and a very long goods loop off one of the two lines, between the crossovers. Some stations also have a siding or two between the crossovers. Kaub looks to be a good example. I think taking a particular station and compressing into a layout isn't going to work - it's going to be a case of using a typical track plan, and bits and pieces from the area to fit around it. The Loreley tunnel mouths may be a bit too obvious for scene breaks though! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memphis32 Posted August 3, 2015 Author Share Posted August 3, 2015 Also meant to ask - would this area have suffered from rationalisation much? I've done fairly extensive flickr searches and found no railway-related photos of the area in Steam times... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted August 4, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 4, 2015 Lindau, in steam days, also hosted the Bavarian S3/6 Pacifics to the extent that, by the time of their withdrawal, they were more-or-less synonymous with the line. What sort of date would that have been? Before or after electrification of the lines to Austria? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memphis32 Posted August 4, 2015 Author Share Posted August 4, 2015 What is the german equivalent to our 6-foot? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 What sort of date would that have been? Before or after electrification of the lines to Austria? In the years up to 1965, which is when the S3/6s were being withdrawn. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mastanec Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Well, you've set yourself quite a challenge! Where DB and ÖBB electric trains are pretty much freely interchangeable (due to the nazi occupation 1938-45), not so the Swiss! They allow much less space for the OHLE then the Germans, so basically, they're not interchangeable. Having said that, some DB loco's have had a special "Swiss package" to allow them to run in Switzerland, besides a different panto also Swiss safety systems but not the other way round! One exception is the large yard at Weil am Rhein, where the overhead is adapted to suit both DB and SBB. In essence, what you're looking for, doesn't exist and never did So, your options are: choose another location, either inside Germany or Switzerland and maybe not involving the Rheingold, choose a fictitious location or choose another prototype altogether (Germany/Austria, for instance) HTH! I have to partially disagree on this, only specific classes of locomootives were used. You may bve right with the clearances, pantos and electrical/safety equipment. But in model it would be really only the pantos that are different, to be precise most likely just width of the contact part of the panto. And don;t turn him away, I'd like to see this project Wiki and google translate: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheingold_%28Zug%29 As locomotives initially had six locomotives of the normal range E 10 (with angular end faces, E 10 from 1239 to 1244) are used, which for their special use new, designed for 160 km / h bogies and - to match the car - a painting in blue beige received. The actually provided for the Rheingold electric locomotives E series 10:12 with the more elegant face front ("crease"), whose color scheme from the outset where the car corresponded, have been used from the fall of 1962. The locomotives were then provisionally set back built to normal E 10. Until the electrification of the Emmerich-Duisburg there were diesel locomotives of the series V 200 (series 220 of the German Railways) used. From 1972 electric locomotives of the series 103 were used ahead of the train. SBB deposed Basel electric locomotives SBB Re Series 4 / 4I a. Before that on German part, German class 18 were used. Images are property of their respective copyright holders and were displayed by google image search. BR M Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 The difference between Swiss and German OLE is the amount it 'wiggles' The contact wire is designed to zigzag left and right of the centreline of the track, this spread the friction wear on the carbon head of the pantograph over its surface Although Swiss OLE is at the same height as German, the distance it zigzags is less. The Swiss pantograph heads are narrower then German ones, thus if they were used on German OLE they could 'fall off' the wire at the extremes of the contact wire offset. If the German pantographs are used in Switzerland, there is the possibility that the ends of the head will hit the roof of arched tunnels or bridges, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allegheny1600 Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 Your layout, your rules! Even if you were to show this at exhibition in the UK, how many people are actually going to say "Oh no! That's wrong"!?! Sadly, nowhere near as many as those who will just go "Foreign"! and move on. I've been spotting on the Rhine and elsewhere in Germany over the past ten years and seen plenty of Swiss locos - I guess they have been modified? What I'm saying is that if you can see Swiss stock in Germany today, how many folk will know that this was not the case forty or so years ago. All the best with your project, John E. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memphis32 Posted August 7, 2015 Author Share Posted August 7, 2015 It's unlikely to be exhibited!! It will be in chunks though, just in case... I've had a play with SCARM, and I'm realising just how much room is needed!! I'd planned on 4m long, but once two crossovers, a loop and siding are put in, there's no room between the points for the train... I had another look at Google Earth to find a road overbridge that I could use as a scenic break, but the only ones I could find were very modern-looking. All other roads cross on the level. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memphis32 Posted August 17, 2015 Author Share Posted August 17, 2015 I've acquired some stock! A set of Liliput (Vienna) Rheingold 1952 Schürzenwagen coaches. A previous owner cut off the standard couplings and replaced them with Fleischmann close couplers. Ideally I'd like to replace them with NEM pockets, but if that's not possible, Kadees would be good. One thought I had was to find some up-to-date bogie mouldings that I could fit the existing wheels and lighting pickups to. Would that be fairly straightforward? Edit: I'll post a pic of the existing setup tomorrow when I can get to a PC! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memphis32 Posted August 18, 2015 Author Share Posted August 18, 2015 Pics to help with the previous post: I've found some replacement bogies here, but they don't seem to have any coupling mounts - would NEM couplers be fitted to the coach body? Edit: to add more thoughts, there seems to be room and fittings under (above, if it's the right way up!) the bogie for a coupling system. The thing on the right hand side of the pic half way down this page looks like it might fit. Any ideas how I'd get hold of some? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allegheny1600 Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 Hi Mike, Far be it from me to say "You should do this/that/the other" BUT why do you need to swap these Fleischmann couplers out, please? I use the F'mann couplers on all my passenger stock and any block trains as you get a lot more "slop" with Kadee's! (which are still great for shunting & loose coupled trains, of course). For ease of setting up on the track, F'mann couplers, just like Kadee's, can be lifted vertically in or out of a train. It does mean that your locos would have to be dedicated to the Rhinegold coach set but that shouldn't be a problem, surely? I am as you can tell, a big fan of the F'mann coupler, principally because it holds all vehicles in the train "tight" and close coupled together. Alternatively, why not just exchange the couplers on the outside ends of your rake, that way all your locos could have Kadees. I only wish Kadee made a 'swallow tail' coupler themselves, that would ease the situation. Cheers, John E. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memphis32 Posted August 18, 2015 Author Share Posted August 18, 2015 If like the flexibility of being able to shunt anything if I feel in the mood - HO and OO - so eventually I'd like to standardise on Kadees for British, continental and US (I have one loco so far, but a big Mallett is tempting!!) stock. Also, a couple of the swallowtail couplers are so loose they don't stay in, so I'd need to get some more of those anyway, if I stick with them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.