rue_d_etropal Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 I have been thinking of an idea for a small layout which will include a section of tramway. When I say small I mean small, more working diorama. It will be OO and urban, because I have a load of buildings from part=work magazine. Now I had been thinking of something 1950s, but a different idea came after reading editorial in latest coy of Railway Modeller. Most model railways and tramways, tend to be 'historical', ie based on the past, so why not something in the future, with trams and light railways dominating urban environment, no cars on roads, and freight being distributed by rail. The idea would be to show what could be possible. I would hope to include some thought provoking , slightly amusing scenarios. One idea maybe a sign next to a derelict motorway bridge, with a proposal for a motorway preservation society! Reason I am posting here, is that I am wondering what trams and light railways would look like in say 35 years time. Given the longevity of use of electric powered vehicles, probably anything introduced over past 10 years would still be running. Any ideas? Trams will be induction charged versions. That is something that is being tested at the moment, and would make costs of introducing trams a lot lower, so more viable. From modelling point of view it also means I don't need to model overhead wires, or conduit system. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edcayton Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 Have a look at Paul Lunn's book. Plenty of futuristic tram/train layouts, although not as far in the future as you suggest perhaps. Ed Can't find the bl66dy thing at the moment and can't remember the title but a little googling will find it. He is Dzine on here and may well catch this thread. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRman Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 I like the idea of a Middle Earth setting, although railways and any other machinery were anathema to Tolkien. It allows you a lot of imagination and leeway. Living here in Melbourne, trams are an everyday part of life, with some routes also becoming light rail for parts of their length. My daily commute to the school I work in involves travel along one of the tram routes for around a quarter of my journey.I'll look forward to seeing some of the ideas come to fruition. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan J Kirkman Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 That idea has promise Simon. Most of the Current production trams have fitting for energy storage packs and an ability to recharge etc even if present deliveries are not so fitted to save weight as operators are not yet convinced the Tech is quite fully ready. So Halling Flexity 2s for example would be ideal. Now one word of caution there may be a minimumszie for Trams with full storage etc due to the roof space required for all the boxes so it may not be an option on short 3 section cars like in Besacon etc. Bombardier won't even offer the option of a 3 section Flexity 2 even for pure overhead for equipment space reasons.. I have some memory that one of the Continental resin or 3D Cottage industries does the Volkswagen Cargo Tram conversions from Tatras. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allegheny1600 Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 Hear, Hear, Simon! I've rattled on to any parties who I thought might be open minded enough to listen to the idea of a layout of any kind, based in the future. Sadly, I always drew blank expressions! My idea in c. 2000 was to build a British H0 layout in my (then) 20' x 10' garage, set some 25 years in the future. Why H0? Simple! Repowered 08's may still be running, similarly with the class 66, all the old, traditionally British diesel or electric classes would have been long withdrawn replaced by fairly standard Euro/US designs. The layout was to be set as part of "HS4" down near the Truro area so the loading gauge issue would not have been a problem and ICE's* and TGV's* would have been the norm on passenger services. I may even have run a "preserved" Warship! I foresaw that road vehicles would be all electric, following induction loops on what we now know as 'smart roads'! This would have meant no need for roadside barriers. Mobile phone masts would have been very common but postboxes and telephone boxes would be extinct. I never thought about trams as such but would it be possible for them to be "rubber" tyred and follow induction loops? They could then follow more or less any route that electric cars could use. Maybe there would be passenger and freight (or, mixed?) trams that would take the place of today's multitude of delivery vehicles. I still think it's a 'cool' idea but I get cold feet at the idea of ploughing so lonely a furrow not to mention the investment required. For that reason alone, a small diorama would be a great idea. Cheers, John E. * Of course, in the intervening 15 years since my initial idea, the first of these vehicles into service are now being withdrawn so any layout set in say, 2040 could only run todays latest, newest trains as rather obselete equipment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 I have been thinking of an idea for a small layout which will include a section of tramway. When I say small I mean small, more working diorama. It will be OO and urban, because I have a load of buildings from part=work magazine. Now I had been thinking of something 1950s, but a different idea came after reading editorial in latest coy of Railway Modeller. Most model railways and tramways, tend to be 'historical', ie based on the past, so why not something in the future, with trams and light railways dominating urban environment, no cars on roads, and freight being distributed by rail. Interesting idea Simon. There was a layout, I think it may have been Australian, somewhat on these lines a few years ago but I think it included that old cliché of a monorail (transportation for the future: always has been always will be !!) which always looks a bit Disneyland to my way of thinking. I'm not sure that you'd completely get rid of road vehicles but railways/tramways do have the twin advantages of using less energy per tonne kilometre and, perhaps more important in cities, far less land. There are some ideas you could include such as an automated rail-freight distribution system where the wagon makes it way into a secure enclosure to which the shipper or recipient is given an access keycode. There's an Amazon box near here that works a bit like that and the idea would be for the goods to come nearer to the recipient using far less fuel etc than the alternative. Many years ago Tomorrows World ran an item on a BR project (blue skies I think) called the "Autowagon" where autonomous wagons were supposed to roam around the entire network carrying wagonload freight from point to point. Probably very inefficient if they operated singly for their entire run but some way of getting a wagon to and from a node and getting it to join the appropriate train - something passengers do all the time of course- for the trunk haul might work. There would also be no reason not to use the tramway for freight especially at night. US interurbans used to do that and the Paris central market of Les Halles was supplied at night by a standard gauge steam tramway using the tracks of the city trams for years. To meet future safety standards your wagons might need to be fitted with side protection to stop people and bicycles from falling under their wheels and that might give them a decidedly futuristic look. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 I have been thinking of an idea for a small layout which will include a section of tramway. When I say small I mean small, more working diorama. It will be OO and urban, because I have a load of buildings from part=work magazine. Now I had been thinking of something 1950s, but a different idea came after reading editorial in latest coy of Railway Modeller. Most model railways and tramways, tend to be 'historical', ie based on the past, so why not something in the future, with trams and light railways dominating urban environment, no cars on roads, and freight being distributed by rail. The idea would be to show what could be possible. I would hope to include some thought provoking , slightly amusing scenarios. One idea maybe a sign next to a derelict motorway bridge, with a proposal for a motorway preservation society! Reason I am posting here, is that I am wondering what trams and light railways would look like in say 35 years time. Given the longevity of use of electric powered vehicles, probably anything introduced over past 10 years would still be running. Any ideas? Trams will be induction charged versions. That is something that is being tested at the moment, and would make costs of introducing trams a lot lower, so more viable. From modelling point of view it also means I don't need to model overhead wires, or conduit system. . There are already tramways that use apparently 'wireless' systems, so don't need overhead wiring; instead they use a form of stud-contact, where the stud is only energised as the tram passes over it. I believe Bordeaux uses such a system in the city centre. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rue_d_etropal Posted September 16, 2015 Author Share Posted September 16, 2015 thanks for all those ideas. Alan, that Halling Flexity 2, is a possibility, but I might be more tempted to use the Berlin version, as it looks like it has a simpler livery, so could be used for a freelance model. I don't want to have to paint models. With a minimum radius of 20cm, it should be even easier to fit in. I now have the track designed for 20 and 25cm radius. One reason for a model of the future, is that it just might suggest to someone that it is a good idea. I shall be incorporating a lot of 'eco' type scenes, one reason for having no cars on roads, and maybe one of those working bicycles. Solar panels on house roofs(possibly some of those small wind turbine designed for urban environments), and gardens and open areas growing food. Plenty of community based activities and businesses, maybe a community police station and community centre (old redundant supermarket!). I want it to look plausible, not too futuristic. That way, it will be more difficult to dismiss the ideas shown. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 It's something I've considered, but with my list of modelling projects the future may well be here before I get round to it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 Low energy use vehicles typically move quite slowly. So any models of such are going to need good, even slower running, mechanisms than usual. Many you tube model tram layout clips have trams zipping along and round street corners at what looks like 60 mph. I presume that's because the RTR mechs are built to do that - but apparently are not so capable of prototypical crawling around corners. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rue_d_etropal Posted September 16, 2015 Author Share Posted September 16, 2015 Speed - much depends on motor, and weight of model, also how many wheels pick up power. Once warm, my old Lima motors will move along slowly, no problem, but breaks in track9points and crossings) might cause a problem sometimes. Stopping and starting problems can be sorted by making sure track is clean, . On many newer models, there are flywheels on motors which help a lot. I don't plan to have any points on my tram track, except possibly some dummy ones, so rail will be continuous, and probably use a timed shuttle, and make sure rail is clean where wheels stop. Thinking I won't fit everything in one module so will build two. This has another advantage as I can model the suburbs in one, and town centre(with station) in the other. Now to fit in the freight, and then there could be a canal side, with transfer between rail and boat. Wonder what a redesigned 21st century cargo canal boat would look like. Possibly a narrow gauge railway tug running alongside canal, pulling boats. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dzine Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 Hi Ed, thanks for the mention, my Sheffield Supertram designs are in Making Tracks from Atlantic Publishers. They all assume a future resurgence in rail freight, 'FastFreight', with wagons attached to trams, especially late evening/early morning services to be delivered/collected at key points along the route. I included a new tramway shunter in matching style, for use at major industrial locations, especially interchange sidings and so on. Hope this helps, Kind regards Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan J Kirkman Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Hallings etc run very slowly with the controllers set for that. Now I have seen a lot of video clips of layouts I have seen at exhibitions and for some I was even standing by the camera man, and nearly always the video shows faster running than the eye does! It is probably mainly a matter of super compact cameras and focal length of the lens today. It is notably worse when people use a multi function camera. Video shot using larger Video Cameras seems much closer to the eye's results, maybe because it is generally shot from further away. So sometimes the camera may be at least confusing if not actually lying. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Hallings etc run very slowly with the controllers set for that. Now I have seen a lot of video clips of layouts I have seen at exhibitions and for some I was even standing by the camera man, and nearly always the video shows faster running than the eye does! It is probably mainly a matter of super compact cameras and focal length of the lens today. It is notably worse when people use a multi function camera. Video shot using larger Video Cameras seems much closer to the eye's results, maybe because it is generally shot from further away. So sometimes the camera may be at least confusing if not actually lying. At a couple of shows I've had a go at driving the "Camtram" on Martin & Steve Whitley's DCC "Stepley Tramways" layout; What really struck me was that the view on the monitor from the onboard video camera made me feel as if I was driving far too fast and likely to come off on the next set of points but when I glanced at the actual model it appeared to be moving really slowly. I think that cameras with very small imaging chips- which includes any smart phone- produce an image of a model that is closer to how the human eye would see the full size object than how the eye sees the model. Certainly when DV cameras first appeared I found that I could get images of models with a supposedly consumer camera (Sony VX1000) using three 1/3 inch chips that were far better than anything I'd ever been able to get from full size TV cameras. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edcayton Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Hi Paul, I found the ruddy book this morning! I was of course looking for something else, which I have not found yet. Whilst intrigued by the idea, and I'd like to see it in reality, it's not something that gets my modelling juices going. Ed Generally I like old-fashioned trains with kettles in front Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmthtrains - David Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Have a look at the PRT system that was built into Masdar City - an ecological city of the future that is under construction in the Middle East. Some of these instead of cars on roads, some light rail or maglevs going past solar farms would look very interesting. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Hi Ed, thanks for the mention, my Sheffield Supertram designs are in Making Tracks from Atlantic Publishers. They all assume a future resurgence in rail freight, 'FastFreight', with wagons attached to trams, especially late evening/early morning services to be delivered/collected at key points along the route. I included a new tramway shunter in matching style, for use at major industrial locations, especially interchange sidings and so on. Hope this helps, Kind regards Paul Great minds think alike, I'd not heard of your book, but had the same sort of thoughts myself. Strangely, one of the things that made me think of it was the road vehicle turntables situated in the yards off Chrush Street in Sheffield https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.3822341,-1.4691332,42m/data=!3m1!1e3 I'll have to hunt down your book Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 I think the legal max speed of ANY right angle street turn on MUNI is in the 3-5 mph range. Here are a coupla of video clips: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfVZT2zBgDE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUd2sRqJcxE I don't think I've ever seen a model streetcar shown running that realistically. IMHO doubtful a normal controller would be able to handle any momentary pick-up issues at those speeds. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
purpledoor Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 how about this... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
runs as required Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 I have been thinking of an idea for a small layout which will include a section of tramway. When I say small I mean small, more working diorama. It will be OO and urban, ...after reading editorial in latest coy of Railway Modeller... why not something in the future, with trams and light railways dominating urban environment, no cars on roads, and freight being distributed by rail. The idea would be to show what could be possible. A great idea. Not least because testing as models is how some of the fundamentals of early railways came about. Isaac Jackson was a blacksmiths' furnaceman at Wylam colliery, working 12 hrs a day but was also an accomplished clockmaker on his Sunday days off, using a lathe and beautiful sets of tools he’d made himself. In 1812 William Hedley got him to make a model (in just one day) that demonstrated iron wheels on iron rails would deliver practicable adhesion. In 1813 Jackson made a working brass model built like a clock as a prototype for Puffing Billy. He and Hedley demonstrated it for Lady Margaret Bewicke at nearby Close House. To prevent it tumbling off her long table Lady Bewicke ran forward to catch it in her apron but it incorporated a worm actuated reversing eccentric underneath and it continued running to and fro on the table until the steam pressure eventually dropped! Jim Rees of Beamish claims Jackson, testing ideas in model form was the true innovator: evolving the slide valve, and a workable crank. Unlike the others at Wylam, he never moved on or enriched himself. Robert Stephenson was influential in having Jackson’s three legged escape mechanism incorporated in Big Ben’s clock. So I say GO FOR IT ! dhig Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan J Kirkman Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 Superb video Purpledoor! Just what you can do with any decent controller and Halling mechs. What I see every time I test across a Setrack point to see if pick up is ok and it doesn't stall with one wheel on the dead frog. Now as for Cornering and Junction speed limits on Muni One of their senior "Operators" explained all that and the reasons on another site recently. It is no technical or track related more defensive against other users. Equally It should be remember that Simon was talking about the new and coming generation of energy storage on Board systems which the Tram Manufacturers assure us ate designed to ensure FULL Performance not to obstruct other road users etc. Simon You may find the Innsbruck Flexity livery ( basically a nice deep red) more to your taste for an anywhere scheme. And ELMTS has a 2nd hand one on ebay now! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 Good Grief, we have a Florin Street here in Pismo Beach! http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/128-Florin-St_Pismo-Beach_CA_93449_M23834-33740 But back on topic, that's a very good test video. I certainly can't argue with that performance. So now I have seen some. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rue_d_etropal Posted September 23, 2015 Author Share Posted September 23, 2015 just got hold of one of the Siku 1/87 scale trams. As most of the other ones are HO, it seemed I may as well get something cheap to start with. Noticed it is nearer 12mm gauge, but no problem, I only want it to move along a short track, and it can be pushed/pulled by something out of site. ill probably get another to make longer unit. I am thinking also of some type of station interchange, for another module, and had considered the new Bachmann S stock, but then I would be limited to London for location, unless I said other cities decided to use them. Just need to schedule in this project, as one of current ones is nearly finished, and another is coming along nicely. I tend to have 2 on the go, as one is at home and other at clubrooms. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
siltec Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 One of the advantages of model tramways that use the overhead wire as a supply is that they can use simple three wire automation. If you do not want the faff of putting up wire then use three rail centre track. Hornby is no good as the running rails are connected. Trix is fine as their Trix Twin system means the running rails are insulated from each other. Alternatively Peco make third rail fitting which can be used at the edge or in the centre. The first tiem I saw this in action was a small figure of 8 layout in 0 gauge on a roughly 4' x2' baseboard. Three trams were running after each other. Larger systems laid out as a 'dog bone' can have a number of trams following each other. See threerail.tripod.com This has the basic circuits and some ideas on converting to three rail. In the real world three Ansoldo promote a system whereby only the section of track under the tram is live. It is an updated version of the stud system. Using the stud system for small scale models is probably not worth the effort. To be realistic studs are around 6' apart or 24mm. Marklin stud track has them much closer. I would use plain centre rail slightly notched every 30mm or so and filled with a bit of paint. Basically spacing the gaps rather than the studs. There is the induction system, much the same as rechageable tooth brushes. In the real world very expensive but a 'wide' centre that on a model could be a conductor. I am working along simialr ideas to yourself using card bodies for the models. Trams and urban light rail are good systems if you want to sit back and watch a system run. So far I have tested a couple of automatic end to end systems, one of which would also work with three rail automation. With a bit of imagination there is a lot that can be achieved without DCC, especially with three rails. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rue_d_etropal Posted September 30, 2015 Author Share Posted September 30, 2015 I think induction charging is the future, one reason I want to show it on my model. I am less convinced it is practical for non rail vehicles such as buses, as it takes away much of the flexibility on a road vehicle, making metal rails in the road a better option. Again I am trying to show that idea on my model. I may add some sort of freight mover(possibly container load), using the tram tracks. This is an interesting piece from Bombardier concerning the induction technology http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/bombardier-primove-light-rail-trams-germany/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.