“ROUTE OF THE SHORTYS”

[Northroader]

It's all got bitty recently. When I've got the Rivarrossi 460 running, my moguls shortcomings are more obvious, so I've had a session redoing the pickups, and now it does kick up its heels when you turn the controller knob, although there's still a bit of a knock.. Then this Saturday I did my usual annual trip to the ALSRM show at Reading, one of my favourite outings; that's another thing, why ain't it on the RMweb calendar??? Nothing American per se, but one of the traders had these three steam outline models, any one of which could have graced Englefield, but the Grace of Financial Reason took my hand, mopped up my drooling, and led me firmly away, although with fond backward looks over my shoulder. So I just bought some bits and bobs, including some diesel loco wheels. I can now progress the diesel kit without the instructions, and I'm drawing on what I learnt from the Weaver Alco you met early on in the thread, in that I'm running it with just the one bogie powered. Another thing I brought back is a pack of woodland scenics light green field grass, and I've been trying to develop a technique with this. I found it's tricky to lay without getting it looking all flattened, glue on the top as well as my fingers, and the whole neighbourhood covered with long green hairs. There are a few examples you see which look as if little green paint brushes have popped up, and I'm trying to get low clumps rather than taller tufts. So far I'm finding a way to suit is form a puddle of glue, get a clump of the grass cut straight across so that the end of the clump is square, and plant this in the puddle. A pinch of some woodland scenics turf (a scatter powder) can be dropped to cover the puddle, and then this is left to dry out. When dried out, the clump can be trimmed off with a sharp pair of nail scissors. The gain is that glue isn't spread everywhere, and the tuft isn't left so that its long enough to hold between your finger and thumb. It's a slow job as the glue has to set for each tuft, and I suppose folks will come back recommending an electrostatic applicator thingy. Anyhow, here's a picture of grass growing on Englefield- don't throw your computer at the cat, it's my fault,not kitty's, sorry!

Edited July 3, 2023 by Northroader

[Northroader]

Well, I did get one "like" for the grass, (thank you, sir) and am pushing on gluing, planting, and snipping, but it's time to get back to the chaos and old night of Englefield workshops. You'll know that there are two steamers on the go, having their super structures formed, but I also mentioned a diesel taking shape. This is a kit which I think I got at Winchester Am & Con around 15 years ago, and have sat on ever since. Time is flying, and I thought I'd try and get it fixed, but when I opened the box and had a good look, I find there are no "destructions" as my kids used to call them. When I do computer enquiries, sometimes I find snippets and when I go back, I can't find them. My understanding is that an American gentleman specially created a firm to build his favourite engine as an Ogauge model, around fifty years ago. The firm was Central Locomotive Works, the engine the Alco PA. Yes, indeedy! An Alco PA! You'll say it's totally wrong and immoral to run one on my line, but I do have a Model Railroader 'pike-size' trains article showing one with a single coach on a feeder service, even if in the twilight days, and well, it is an Alco PA, which everyone has to agree is special, and fully justifying impulse buying when seen. Maybe I should approach this job with more reverence, treating this as a collectors item, I'm just wanting to see it as a goer, the main divergence being I intend to run it on just one power bogie if possible. So, feast your mince pies on this:

The body unit has a one piece bronze casting for the cab and nose, beautiful job, up there with Donatello's 'David ', the walls are around 3.5mm thick. This joins to an embossed? brass body, and another casting for the rear end. I fancy this was joined as a unit in the factory, then smaller bits added on by the previous owner before he give up. The whole lot weighs 2lb 11oz, (210 grams), heavier towards the leading end, so I'm thinking of putting the power bogie there, although an underside shot I've seen implies the power input went through the back end. So, have a look under:

 

You'll see there are two brass angles placed inside, there was a screw attaching one which showed where they went, being supported by lugs off the two castings. This forms the only "floor" in the unit. I haven't worked out what the hole in the nearest lug is for. There are obviously mounting brackets fore and aft cast in to take couplers. On to the next pieces of the puzzle:

 

If you're used to sticking Mashima 1833s into everything, this motor is BIG. The end plates are stamped CLW. There are two brass strips which obviously place the motor and the bogies, although I may have these upside down, as I haven't checked alignment yet. There are cast brass yokes for each end of the motor, and cast brass plates for the bogie centres, each of these having four small spigots locating in the strips. Once I'm sure of placement I can sweat these in with some reinforcing angle. I should mention that for work on O gauge brass locos I have a Weller 120watt soldering iron, which comes into its own on this sort of work. What I don't figure is how the strips join to the angle strips Inside the body, possibly there's a bag of brackets missing? Otherwise more angle and sweating. Once I've sorted this, I can wrap up the rest of the body detail, such as steps. That leaves the bogies:

 

These are great fun, being a set of brass castings which you fit to give fully compensated bogies very like the real thing, although the springs are stiff they still roll along very well on my tracks. The drive is very like the old style Weaver, with a big central motor in the body driving the outer axle at one end, and then through universal joins and splines along the length underneath. The intermediate axle of each bogie is an idler. I'm doing it with drive to just one bogie. The intermediate axles have gone to the outers of the other bogie, replaced by new 900mm plain disc wheels (Peartree Engineering) Talking electrically, it seems the idea is that pickup is through the wheels on one side of bogie A, and back thro the other side of bogie B, as the wheels are insulated on just one side, and there is a recess for a paxolin insert on the bogie mounting plates, I find it helps on assembly to mark the insulated wheels with dull red paint on the back, or you can get into a tangle. I will probably have add some supplementary pickups on the new wheels.Then there are two mysterious brass strips in the front of this picture which came in the bogie parts bag, what do those do??

Anyhow, there you are, a really interesting piece of work, and not using that in the American context!

Edited July 3, 2023 by Northroader

[jasond]

OK, OK, I was tempted to say the grass effect is great, but you didn't say how you discombobulated your Noch machine...!   Good to see a plug for Peartree wheels too. 

 

Bob Smith, owner of Central Loco Works died some 25 years ago and his line was acquired by a present-day Californian who appears to have no time or maybe confidence to relaunch the brand.  The old technology hasn't kept up with what we all take for granted now.  For example the bodyshell is surface etched - the rivet strip is the 2 edges and the rivets in one plane.  The gearboxes are 'guaranteed for life', riveted, slippery plastic and were copied by Weaver.  His kits do build up into solid, powerful, ..., er, ... O-SCALE locos.

 

I have a CLW GP38-2 kit with the same bogie mounting plates and I'll look for the assembly drawing in case it shows anything helpful about brackets, etc.. 

Jason

[Northroader]

What's a Noch machine? I'm sticking in a link to this new site under construction, as it's going to be the place to go to, watch this space:

http://www.americanoscale.uk.

[Argos]

Wow, that looks like it's going to be some beastie!

 

Looking forward to seeing her completed.

Just to be awkward I've given you another like for the grass.........

[F-UnitMad]

Ok, another 'like' for the grass although I agree the Woodland Scenics grass is tedious & slow to work with.

 

Also, Rule#1 applies, so no arguments about running an Alco PA on your layout. There is another invokable Rule applicable particularly to US Railroads, which holds that somehow, somewhere, there is a Prototype for Everything.

 

That's a beast of a kit!! A sprung 6-wheel truck is a really good idea, especially for my style of track!! My 4-axle Atlas locos cope fairly well with 'bad' track, but the SD40 can struggle; the rigid center axle will lift the other axles off the rails if the dips & rises are too severe. In this respect the 'Weaver' system is far superior.

[Northroader]

Thanks for the likes on the grass, if you look outside the back door, you'll see its the wrong time of the year to start a grass appreciation society. By the time I've finished the scenicking, I'm going to need a Qualcast rather than a Noch! Yes, it is an impressive kit, even if a bit old in methods, the body side grills, for instance, aren't that well defined, but it is a PA, which is a beautiful machine, even if the prototype was a bit shaky mechanically.

Jordan, I thought you deliberately set out to get your track looking rundown, it sounds as is you were a bit too successful? With the bogies I tried to get clearances for smooth deflection, but they're still very stiff, and once they've been forced down so every wheel is in contact, they tend to freeze there, and I doubt if there'll be much deflection on any really poor dips.

Yesterday, I pushed on with assembling the bits in the third photo, so I've got a frame carrying the motor and bogie centres, all sweated together with brass angle reinforcement. The bogie centres have lugs on one side, I put one in, one out, so one must be right, although it probably don't matter. That leaves four screw holes symmetrically placed between the motor and centres which must be for attaching brackets. The screws for the motor mounting in the yoke have big clearances, and there are four rubber grommets provided which obviously go there, but 50 year old rubber grommets have done what 50 year old rubber grommets will do, the little perishers! I've replaced with some Evergeen 3/16" plastic tube. Once the motor was mounted, what did I do? Yes, leads soldered on the brush tails, and juice up. Oh! It really is a lovely motor, spins quietly away as soon as the controller is moved away from off. The performance has got me reconsidering my earlier decision to power only the one bogie?????

[F-UnitMad]

Jordan, I thought you deliberately set out to get your track looking rundown, it sounds as is you were a bit too successful?

I did, & still do, deliberately try to get the rundown look, but on one spur on "Portway Center", where there's a really wild dip on one rail & everything leans waaaaay over, I did overdo it slightly & it has proven too much for my 6-axle Atlas SD40, although 4-axle locos manage it okay. Fortunately the SD40 is a bit too big anyway for that layout, but up in my loft where I'm hand-spiking all my track, I'm trying to take things a bit easier so there's no "off limits" areas even for the SD. This has reduced the lean & sway of stock, though - so it's a bit of a trade-off between a wild ride and having everything including my biggest loco actually stay on the track!!! Next challenge for the SD40 is curve radius; it'll take 24" on it's own, but 36" is pushing it with cars attached, & I may have to go a bit tighter in one corner

Looking at your Steamers, I realise that as much as I'd like a 2-8-2 light Mike I think it just couldn't take the curves. Anyway it's an unlikely dream as apart from Brass (i.e mega-$$$$) I don't know if a 'plastic' 2-8-2 was even made, by anyone?

 

Edit: re your PA1; due to the central motor & drive system, I'd power both trucks. The only reason not to is to avoid the sight of drive shafts under the loco, but I suspect you'd lose more in tractive effort - which you may well need with such a heavy model!! - than you'd lose in 'looks' under the frames.

Edited May 16, 2016 by F-UnitMad

[Northroader]

Well, I thought having the full monty for the drive might bring in a load of friction, going back to when you first climbed aboard this site, but I'm very tempted to do it as God and Bob Smith intended. There won't be a problem with visible drive shafts, as they're tucked up out of the way between deep skirts.

Steamers for your line? Well, I was going on about the temptations of the Reading ALSRM show, I should have got the dealers name, but run these past you; Maine Central 2-8-0, Canadian Pacific 4-4-0, (the last survivor), and Rock Island 0-6-0, all looking the business, and all around the £250 blockhole. They were all mixed in with primarily British stuff, so I doubt he'll be one of the Trent Valley guys. As you know, I've spent enough recently, otherwise... Would something like this do as secondary power rather than a Mike?

[jasond]

You resisted those 3 steamers at £250ish (before offers - who wants to be stuck with American stuff....)?  And I thought your grass was a strong point.  Get the PA running and power the second truck when you go past the first half-dozen or so passenger cars   PAs on the Adirondack (Albany to Montreal) turned me onto the D&H.

 

What is the diameter of the wheels?  Inches or mms.

 

Love to see pics of the steamers - the MEC 2-8-0 could be a Weaver (like the one I wanted to fiddle with some bits to produce my Maryland & Pennsylvania fav), the 4-4-0 would be a nice passenger/freight branchline loco and the RI 0-6-0 would be in charge of your next board with all those new industries on.  Aahh O-scale.... 

Jason

[jasond]

I see you spotted my boast about americanoscale.uk - the test version is there (shouldn't be) and the better version is trapped on my ISP's site awaiting someone there pressing the right button.  The good parrot on my left shoulder is asking why I don't just build some of the stuff I've been collecting for these peaceful retirement years....

[F-UnitMad]

Nah, it's 2-8-2 or nowt for me!! Partly because I think thek look a bit more 'balanced' than 2-8-0, & partly because it's a wheel arrangement that was very uncommon (if used at all??) in the UK

[Zomboid]

Nah, it's 2-8-2 or nowt for me!! Partly because I think thek look a bit more 'balanced' than 2-8-0, & partly because it's a wheel arrangement that was very uncommon (if used at all??) in the UK

The P2 is the only tender loco I can think of from the UK. Might have been sons tank engines, I don't know a thing about those.

[Northroader]

"To Mike or not to Mike? That is the question,

Whether tis nobler in the mind to suffer,

running diddy locos on your line ..."

I fully understand what you're saying, Jordan, way back I had a die cast HO NYC Mike, and it was a magnificent beast, but I feel you can't shut yourself off from the rest of the scene, especially if the opportunity comes along to pick up what's on offer. I'm really looking forward to finishing Casey Jones, even if the last fortnight I've been more preoccupied with getting a running chassis for the PA. Remember when a lot of roads dieselised, the last loco in steam was a 280. On my line they'd just be too big, but I'm hoping to get some small fry in action. It's only limited space, but you still get a good feeling from a few bulky O items in action.

Jason, tell the parrot:

"No man is an island entire of itself,

Every man is a piece of the Internet, part of the web.."

Surely you can model and run your site, I'm looking forward to seeing it, you always have something worthwhile to say when you come on here. I'm finding this thread is part of my modelling, doing it, rambling on about it, and getting useful and entertaining feedback from a circle of people I regard as friends.

Now, PA wheels, the prototype ran on 40", the model measures 0.88", 20.5mm, the replacement idlers I got from Peartree were described as 900mm plain disc, British scale, of course, which were a very close match, but slightly narrower profile. Now for ideas what to do with those. I've put the chassis together, just six pieces, one wrong way round, then when I primed it, two upside down, dull or what? Anyway it's ok now, so push on.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Northroader

[40019]

The P2 is the only tender loco I can think of from the UK. Might have been sons tank engines, I don't know a thing about those.

 

GWR  72xx 2-8-2T  as well - 54 of them apparently

[NickBrad]

I'm loving this thread, and learning lots at the same time. Then again, what's not to love about "large" O gauge models on a layout size that most of us could accommodate at home.

[Northroader]

Main job this weekend was push on with the PA chassis, the components have been painted, so start assembling. I was interested in how the drive shafts went, (yes, I have fitted all of em) There are splines on the shafts under the bogies, which you'd think aren't needed, and the two shafts, from the motor to the bogie chain drive, and joining the bogies, are solid. Each end of these has a universal joint, with some longitudinal movement allowed, and I found this looks adequate, allowing plenty of bogie swing. Then I've soldered leads from the compensating beams, which are cast in with the axle boxes,to give a low resistance path from the axle journal straight to the motor brushes. If I ever box this up, I must make sure they are secured clear of the split pins whirling round on the drive shafts.. They didn't, did they?? Oh, yes! Putting the chassis up on blocks, with the wheels dangling, and juice to the motor leads was quite encouraging, the whole lot spinning sweetly round with very low current setting from the controller. On to the track, and things aren't so good, the one bogie derailing on a point, although the other is ok, so that needs looking at, and the current draw is much higher, with cutout trips. Ole skinflint NR will have to get a controller with the capacity to do some arc welding on the side?? Also there's a lot of wheel spin, as if more weight is needed, so I need to devise brackets to join the top to the bottom, but I gotta admit to some miffification.

Edited July 3, 2023 by Northroader

[Argos]

You got the "like" for the word miffification........superb!

 

Surely that lump of a body will apply enough weight?

[jasond]

Smugman here: I have an NMRA standards gauge which does useful things like measure back-to-back, flangeways, etc, etc.  Etc.  Are the trucks equalised OK?  When you point a truck at your chest then put your thumbs on the sideframe ends nearest you and your index fingers on the ends farthest away, do they make x-shapes easily?  OK, OK, easier done than said.

 

The metal holding the trucks together under the motor is indeed a rod.  I modified a similar drive train for even tighter radius by substituting 2 short turned rods running in a sliding fit, brass square tube.  Downsizing = bits left.

 

How is the shaft between the end gearboxes on each truck formed?  On my GP38-2 the gearboxes have D-shafts (on the small shiny bit in your photo) and for a 4-wheel truck they simply overlap and are a sliding fit in brass tube.  Is the longer A1A shaft a tube with a rod with D-shaft ends inserted?

 

The splines are on the centre axle?  If yes, that is how the other axles hold their gears, Weaver gearboxes and many others do this.

 

When the chassis was turned around did the same wheelset derail, or the equivalent wheelset on the other truck, or er...?  When you rest the bodyshell on the chassis does the controller give up sooner?  Aahh - O-scale.

Jason

[F-UnitMad]

"Miffification". Class!!

 

Agree with Argos on both counts - the word is great, & the body should add the needed weight. Can you try it running with the body in place?

Also, trouble over points sounds like back-to-back discrepency to me. I wish there was an easy tool to do this (aside from a "wheel puller" type) though - kills my thumbs trying to ease out Atlas wheels!!!

[Northroader]

Must admit I haven't looked at it today, I did some work on the Casey Jones in a fit of pique and I'll be doing a country walk tomorrow, as my way of keeping fit. Thanks for all the comments and suggestions, avenues of attack: firstly I'm thinking the sideplay is too limited on the offending bogie, as it is quite a long wheelbase six wheeler. The main frame castings are in brass, and viewed from above, I thought one looked a bit banana shaped, and gently, very gently, as its cast brass, bent it straight. This might need to go back, to allow the wheels some side to side, it's acheiving this without the journals dropping out, and striking a happy medium, if I can find her. I'm fairly happy the shafts are extending enough to allow the bogies to rotate. On each bogie there's a 'final drive' type unit on the outer axles, the shaft just joins these, and passes over the top of the middle axle. The shaft extends out of the final drive, then into a D section, mating up with its oppo in a tube. This lot took quite a lot of emery rubbing and filing round the machining of the D before they were a smooth fit. Truck equalisation, well I can push the axleboxes up and down from below with my thumbs on the compensating beams, but they are very stiff, it ain't like they were nylon parts with sensitol lubrication.. So, fix the side play, and then I'll put the top on, and see how she goes... Thanks again for your thoughts and comments, much appreciated..

Edited June 19, 2016 by Northroader

[Northroader]

I've been poking around on the PA, and as I suspected, the wheels in the one bogie in trouble are very tight, from a point of view of some sideplay. I've drilled one bearing larger, and tweaked the side frames, and now there's between 1-2mm float sideways on each axle, which has improved things no end. Of course, the thing which you must have suspected and were too polite to say, was my crappy track laying also contributed. The track gang has been working on one point, attending to alignment and top, also put a check rail in at a critical curve at a baseboard join. I was admiring Jordan's track laying in his progress report on the Portway Centre thread last night, and thinking the PA would never dare to derail on his point work, lovely curves on spiked wood sleepers, looks great. Now it's running happily up and down, some vibration from the chain drive area, which is probably the nature of the beast, so I can go on to look at mounting the body. It's fairly clear I must get a controller with some more oomph, too.

[Mike Boucher]

Main job this weekend was push on with the PA chassis, the components have been painted, so start assembling. I was interested in how the drive shafts went, (yes, I have fitted all of em) There are splines on the shafts under the bogies, which you'd think aren't needed, and the two shafts, from the motor to the bogie chain drive, and joining the bogies, are solid. Each end of these has a universal joint, with some longitudinal movement allowed, and I found this looks adequate, allowing plenty of bogie swing. Then I've soldered leads from the compensating beams, which are cast in with the axle boxes,to give a low resistance path from the axle journal straight to the motor brushes. If I ever box this up, I must make sure they are secured clear of the split pins whirling round on the drive shafts.. They didn't, did they?? Oh, yes! Putting the chassis up on blocks, with the wheels dangling, and juice to the motor leads was quite encouraging, the whole lot spinning sweetly round with very low current setting from the controller. On to the track, and things aren't so good, the one bogie derailing on a point, although the other is ok, so that needs looking at, and the current draw is much higher, with cutout trips. Ole skinflint NR will have to get a controller with the capacity to do some arc welding on the side?? Also there's a lot of wheel spin, as if more weight is needed, so I need to devise brackets to join the top to the bottom, but I gotta admit to some miffification.image.jpegimage.jpeg

 

If its drawing a lot of current as just a bare chassis, you're really going to be drawing when that heavy body is on it.  I had a friend with a couple of these, and the A-A pair drew about 8 amps, IIRC, and that's without a train.  (it was definitely more than 5, as my 5 amp transformer blew its circuit breaker.  We borrowed a 10 amp supply and that would work...

 

I'm going to suggest that you replace that old open frame motor with a modern can motor.  You're still going to need a fairly large one, but it'll draw a lot less power...

[Northroader]

Sunday morning I can usually hope for a decent modelling session and today was up to expectations. First off I swapped controllers round from another line, which got the H&M "Minor" from Englefield. The replacement is another H&M, an "Executive" made in England, so you can tell how old it is, but full of gee-whiz stuff like transistors, and electronic cut out, which drops out without telling you, unlike the Minor which pops up with a loud clunk. The trouble is its too fond of popping out. The new controller is rated at 2 amps, the old one tripped at this. So then put the PA chassis on the rails, and I found she would go without the tripping. She then took my hand, and gently guided me round the layout, showing me the places she didn't like. I tagged along with the tools tweaking here and there, and it wasn't long before we had had a look at every corner of Englefield. She runs with a bit of grinding sound, hope this reduces with running. Next I plonked the body on it, just roughly balanced, and it would still run without cutting out the controller, although this needed careful handling, not too much welly, but still not fully round the dial. I wish I knew what the current she was drawing, to compare with Mike Bouchers experience. (Thanks for coming on the site, Mike, and sharing your know how. I dunno about double headed PAs on this line, though, it would be a magnificent sight) My multimeter was playing silly beggars 21 up today, I'm afraid. Next, what does the FA think about this, so clear the track and try this out. Really nice run, and that left just one option, get the road switcher out, and try that. This was the smoothest and quietest of the three, so we had our own ALCO meeting this morning! L to R, Weaver Alco FA2, (MLW FPA-4) CNR; Central Locomotive Works Alco PA1, undec., and Atlas Alco RSD 4/5, ATSF. As Jasond is fond of saying, aah, Oscale..

Edited July 3, 2023 by Northroader

[Northroader]

Alright, hands up everybody who got involved in the "davestoys88" sale on eBay last Saturday night? It wasn't just me, surely? How did you get on?