RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted November 7, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 7, 2015 There could be a licensing fee which includes a payment to the Royal British Legion. The charity donation doesn't have to come out of profits. Until anyone official says otherwise ... There was a case involving the use of the RBL poppy by a far right political group,I believe involving copyright law,a couple of years back.I would hazard a guess that a fee may have been levied in this case ? We don't know.Therefore perhaps we should refrain from a rush to judgement until we do,assuming of course that any such disclosure would be made.That is a commercial decision which is entirely up to Locomotion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Black Hat Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 The current model of 62822 fulfills all these criteria. 62822 is just the current Ivatt C1 in another 'later' BR guise. It is a model of the same engine that is now in the National Collection. It is not a model of another C1 that is a different engine and not in the collection, thus it is a model of an engine that is under the perview of the NRM and fits nicely into its NCiM. Personally, I find this release a disturbing development. Rather than producing a range of exclusive models focused on the National Collection, Locomotion appear to now be just another commissioner of any old limited edition they think will sell - a sort of state-sponsored version of Rail Express. Additionally, having made a big fuss over their 'NCIM' branding with recent releases, they've now produced a model not in the NCIM range but in almost identical branding. This doesn't strike me as a particularly clever. Sorry Simon, your 'development' of the brand isn't going well, IMO. Cheers Adrian Not wishing to take issue with you again - but the question must be asked: Why? It sounds as if Locomotion can not do new releases outside the NRM collection - which I maintain they have not done so till now - just because they are not in the NCiM range? That sounds like being against change just for the sake of it. This is not change - its evolution. Producing these in their own brand means an expansion of their range to model exclusive models, rather than just the NCiM. So, why not? The last few years have seen a number of changes that allow this venture to both operate and flourish. The NRM, as a part of the Science Musuem Group is needing to find new ways to be able to bring in cash and funds to make the operation of the NRM and the projects it means to undertake a prospect in the future. Recent years have seen budget cuts and the hint that charging may return. I think the free to use NRM is a valuable and excellent national institution, that has an important role to play in safeguarding our heritage and educating the public and future generations about the industries achievements. As a result, the idea that selling model engines can be made into a means to generate income to supplement funds and allow exhibitions to be staged surely has to be an excellent way of going forward. The NRM is lucky that it has its own collection - which means it has its own brand and collection that it can make exclusive. The prestige of making models for the NRM is apparent, as companies are eager to form links and produce models that will be a novelty or rarer item in a period where sales are less than stable following a hit on peoples disposable income, even if this is now beginning to recover. I think the NRM range is brilliant and that it can grow to see many other engines made, while also allowing some engines to form part of a main range later, such as the City class, but this all depends upon the contracts and arrangements made. Expanding the collection was going to be inevitable, as eventually popular choices of NRM releases were done. Branching out seems logical, but its worthwhile to note that Locomotion, based at Shildon, not York is the engine for this to be taken forward (pun intended). Companies both in model form and the wider industry are happy to use the NRM and its new operation to be able to cement relationships and build on ways that allow Locomotion to sell models and generate funds for the NRM. While perhaps this release might have been worthwhile with a donation to the Royal British Legion, I can understand the NRM wishing to capitalise on such ventures. But producing such models is a means to generate funds for the NRM, and as the company and its operation grows quickly in trust, reliability and success it has seen an area of the market that it is able to use its business links and expand into. Personally, that is business and they are absolutely right to do this. The future means that such releases can be made to allow industry, Locomotion and the model company to maximise every effort for PR, funds for the NRM and sales. Everyone wins, including us who get an interesting model from a reliable and successful venture based upon preserving the National Collection and on the part of Locomotion, the success of which is the profit not going to an individual or company. I find it hard to believe anyone could possibly be against it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest spet0114 Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 62822 is just the current Ivatt C1 in another 'later' BR guise. It is a model of the same engine that is now in the National Collection. It is not a model of another C1 that is a different engine and not in the collection, thus it is a model of an engine that is under the perview of the NRM and fits nicely into its NCiM. Sorry, this is incorrect. 62822 was the last GNR atlantic in service and was withdrawn and promptly scrapped in 1950. The preserved loco was withdrawn for preservation in 1947(?) as LNER 2800 and never carried a BR number or livery. If it had lasted until 1948, it's BR number would have been 62800. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest spet0114 Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 ... The NRM is lucky that it has its own collection - which means it has its own brand and collection that it can make exclusive. ... This is the key sentence. The NRM has, to date, produced a range of high quality, premium RTR products based largely (but NOT exclusively) on the National Collection. The items in the National Collection have been judged to be historically significant and have a permenance (one might even say gravitas) as a result. Consequently, the NCIM range has hitherto consisted of representations of 'iconic' prototypes produced at or near the cutting edge of RTR technology. Thus, NCIM has become something of a 'gold standard' for commercial RTR production and this is why manufacturers are queuing up to work with York (and latterly Shildon) as you note. Now, however, we're seeing a new range of models based on older or pre-exisiting tooling (not in of itself a bad thing), representing contemporary (dare I say ephemeral) prototypes that are probably at best going to last a few months or a year in that condition. Thus, the distinctive facets of the brand are being diluted by comissions that could have been placed by any one of a number of other bodies (Rail Express, Model Rail etc). It reminds me of the time in the mid 80's when Nikon launched a range of cheap SLR cameras and associated low-cost lenses. They didn't sell well and ended up devaluing the Nikon brand in the eyes of their established users. In short, I think they're starting to destroy the 'cachet' that a NRM exclusive currently possesse. In the long term I doubt this will be a good thing. Cheers Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Black Hat Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Sorry, this is incorrect. 62822 was the last GNR atlantic in service and was withdrawn and promptly scrapped in 1950. The preserved loco was withdrawn for preservation in 1947(?) as LNER 2800 and never carried a BR number or livery. If it had lasted until 1948, it's BR number would have been 62800. True enough. Having checked some more, it seems your right that this engine was indeed cut up - but then Ivatt's are not my strong point, even if they are a nice enough engine and a very good model. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Black Hat Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Now, however, we're seeing a new range of models based on older or pre-exisiting tooling (not in of itself a bad thing), representing contemporary (dare I say ephemeral) prototypes that are probably at best going to last a few months or a year in that condition. Thus, the distinctive facets of the brand are being diluted by comissions that could have been placed by any one of a number of other bodies (Rail Express, Model Rail etc). It reminds me of the time in the mid 80's when Nikon launched a range of cheap SLR cameras and associated low-cost lenses. They didn't sell well and ended up devaluing the Nikon brand in the eyes of their established users. In short, I think they're starting to destroy the 'cachet' that a NRM exclusive currently possesse. In the long term I doubt this will be a good thing. Cheers Adrian Your fine to have your opinion but respectfully I'm going to still disagree and after this leave it at that. I don't think that it will deminish the NRM NCiM range, it will just enhance it further. Locomotion can have the NCiM range and Locomotion Exclusive models. All to the good. If Locomotion can choose and consistently deliver good limited editions based on popular prototypes that did run or do run today then thats all to the good and will just add another dimension. I don't think theres anything wrong in expansion, or the use of this to bring more to the customer, so long as choices are of the standard that match ones good enough to be seen alongside the NCiM range. Harry Patch and the NRM HST certainly fit this. I can think of other popular ones that would work, as the NRM can get permission of companies that affiliate themselves with the NRM, but won't mention that for fear of this becoming a wishlist. No doubt many will be surprised to see this on the Locomotion Stand when they go to Warley, or see about it here. Its bound to be a popular model, personally I can't wait to see whats next! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted November 7, 2015 Author Share Posted November 7, 2015 Simon has dropped me a not to clarify the donation issue; sorry it's a little delayed as I've been out all day. Dear Friends and RMWeb Readers, Due to domestic engineering this morning I have only just been advised of the thread that is currently running on RMWeb in respect of theLocomotionmodels.com ‘Harry Patch’ HST which appears to have generated several questions and queries which I would like to clarify if I may. Firstly, I believe any reasonable person who has been involved or who has become aware of the significance of naming the HST, ‘Harry Patch’ especially at this current time might reasonably expect that Locomotion would be making a donation from any models sold to the Royal British Legion or an equivalent charity. Indeed I spent some time trying to organise such a donation structure but unfortunately due to certain national rules and regulations it is impossible, apparently for Locomotion which has charity status to donate funds to another charity. Rather than me try and explain I have included the following which I received from a senior staff member of the Science Museum Group: Simon, I’ve checked this out and unfortunately we will not be able to do this. As we are a charity ourselves and SMG Enterprises is used to fund the charitable purposes of the Group it is unfortunately outside of our remit to raise money for other charities. Many years ago my widowed mother, myself and my two brothers were helped on more than one occasion by the generosity of the Royal British Legion and faced with not being able to generate monies via the sale of the ‘Harry Patch’ models I have personally sent a cheque for £100 to Sandra Newcastle at Locomotion asking her to make sure it goes to the local branch at Shildon of the Royal British Legion. Under the circumstances and purely as a personal gesture and nothing to do with the SMG I believed that this was the right and proper thing to do. Moving on, I was also interested in several comments in respect of the ‘Harry Patch’ HST not being part of the National Collection and thatLocomotionmodels.com was now entering into a different phase of trading. To answer these comments I would like to advise that there will be future occasions I am sure when Locomotionmodels.com will be contacted directly by certain organisations such as Great Western Railway with a view for them to produce specific models. Although this will not necessarily be an everyday occurrence I know that Locomotionmodels.com will introduce non-National Collection models. However, I would also like to stress that I have just completed a three year plan listing suitable models ideal for inclusion in the National Collection in Miniature series and all excluding one are subjects that are part of the National Collection. Hopefully the above will have suitably answered some of the questions being asked on the ‘Harry Patch’ thread but as always I am more than pleased to answer specific questions if required. My email address is as follows: simon@kohlercoms.com Kindest regards Simon Kohler An absolute gentleman. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Black Hat Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 I know all to well about fundraising for different causes. It was something similar that stopped another venture I was working on in Scouting. Simon's effort to donate to the local British Legion is incredibly respectful in more ways that one. Nice to know the range will continue to go from strength to strength after this, especially given the work done by Sandra and the team at Shildon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest spet0114 Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 ... Moving on, I was also interested in several comments in respect of the ‘Harry Patch’ HST not being part of the National Collection and thatLocomotionmodels.com was now entering into a different phase of trading. To answer these comments I would like to advise that there will be future occasions I am sure when Locomotionmodels.com will be contacted directly by certain organisations such as Great Western Railway with a view for them to produce specific models. Although this will not necessarily be an everyday occurrence I know that Locomotionmodels.com will introduce non-National Collection models. However, I would also like to stress that I have just completed a three year plan listing suitable models ideal for inclusion in the National Collection in Miniature series and all excluding one are subjects that are part of the National Collection. ... As is so often the way, these 'Kohler-coms' invite more questions than they answer. What criteria will Locomotion apply to deciding whether or not to 'produce' (i.e. comission) a model, or can any TOC who fancies a bit of free publicity at minimal financial risk just call Simon and he'll commit public funds to the project? As for an everyday occurence, are we to assume that the production of two of these non-NCiM models within a couple of months is a bit of statistical clustering, or is this going to be usual rate? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tetsudofan Posted November 7, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 7, 2015 As is so often the way, these 'Kohler-coms' invite more questions than they answer. What criteria will Locomotion apply to deciding whether or not to 'produce' (i.e. comission) a model, or can any TOC who fancies a bit of free publicity at minimal financial risk just call Simon and he'll commit public funds to the project? As for an everyday occurence, are we to assume that the production of two of these non-NCiM models within a couple of months is a bit of statistical clustering, or is this going to be usual rate? Just my own opinion but I think you are going over the top spouting your views at the moment. This thread is about the "Harry Patch" HST not about what criteria will Locomotion apply to decide whether or not to "produce" a model. If you want to debate this subject why don't you go and set up a new thread to discuss your viewpoints and to leave this thread for the rest of us to discuss the "Harry Patch" HST. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest spet0114 Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Just my own opinion but I think you are going over the top spouting your views at the moment. This thread is about the "Harry Patch" HST not about what criteria will Locomotion apply to decide whether or not to "produce" a model. If you want to debate this subject why don't you go and set up a new thread to discuss your viewpoints and to leave this thread for the rest of us to discuss the "Harry Patch" HST. Keith If I were to reply to your points, that would only make the situation worse. Oh, hold on...whoops! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown Warrior Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Simon. Many thanks for clarifying the position re: Donations from the sale of the model to the RBL. As I feared it is not possible for a Charity to donate to another, but many thanks for trying. Can I urge all those who buy this model to follow Simon's example and make their own "special" donation to the Legion. Rather than lumber Sandra with another job, may I suggest that donations are made to local Legion Branches, in my case Belper in Derbyshire. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairburn Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Simon's put his email on the bottom there, can't do much more than be fairer than that. As aside, if he's got a 3-year plan, he could stop pages and pages of frothing over the coming months... I ordered my 'Harry Patch' HST as soon as I could on Friday morning. It fits in with a plan I've got. I'd probably have bought one anyway, in much the same vein I did with Model Rail's 'Marne' last year. Lest We Forget. Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium amwells Posted November 8, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 8, 2015 It's pretty disappointing to read the way that this thread had evolved. I started to formulate my strong views on the (in)appropriateness of a few of the points made above but realised I would just add fuel. So I will leave it at this: We (as modellers) are getting a model (that might otherwise not have been produced) that commemorates not only one individual, but marks one of the most significant events in our national history and commemorates the people who so sadly lost their lives. Fantastic and thank you Locomotion. Simon - you have done a huge amount for us modellers, but I realise you're not quite in a position to change the country's statute book(!) - thank you for contributing out of your pocket personally to the wonderful work the Royal British Legion does. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hilux5972 Posted November 8, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 8, 2015 It's pretty disappointing to read the way that this thread had evolved. I started to formulate my strong views on the (in)appropriateness of a few of the points made above but realised I would just add fuel. So I will leave it at this: We (as modellers) are getting a model (that might otherwise not have been produced) that commemorates not only one individual, but marks one of the most significant events in our national history and commemorates the people who so sadly lost their lives. Fantastic and thank you Locomotion. Simon - you have done a huge amount for us modellers, but I realise you're not quite in a position to change the country's statute book(!) - thank you for contributing out of your pocket personally to the wonderful work the Royal British Legion does. Well said Amwells Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robf Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 I couldn't agree more. If this relationship means we can get more Ltd Edition Hornby models then that's great. The HST is a fantastic model and I for one am really looking forward to it arriving, hopefully this week. In terms of donations, anyone who has purchased this has made a donation to charity, the NRM, If you wish to make a further donation to the RBL, then do as Simon has done and wear your poppy with pride. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith George Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 Andy, Could we also have two minutes "silence" on the forum on the 11th November at 11am.? Very pleased with having the two minutes today. Thank-you. Keith. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tamperman36 Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 I would love to get one of these train packs so I will have to be really good to the boss. Has anybody else noticed the fact of all the numbers of Harry Patch's age at the time of his death come out as 11/11/11, which is such a coincidence for something commemerating rememberfance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Banger Blue Posted November 8, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 8, 2015 I don't normally go for the limited editions but seeing as I work for FGW/GWR and being an ex-Serviceman, this was definitely not to be missed and I've managed to sweet talk SWMBO into the purchase! Hurrah! A big thumbs up to Simon K as well for the personal donation to the RBL. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocomotionatShildon Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Hello everyone who has bought the 'Harry Patch ' Train pack so far... the UPS van was weighed down this afternoon when he came to collect. All being well, your models will be delivered tomorrow. Cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matabiau Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 I would very much like to buy this model but when I try to pay for it, having selected Europe for postage, the drop down list of countries does not include France! I raised this problem some months ago and was assured it would be rectified immediately, but it persists. IT grumble aside, it is a great looking model and will hopefully grace my layout one day soon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foo Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 I have bought one and hopefully will be here tomorrow, just noticed though some money maker has put one on ebay with a 59 quid markup Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beacon Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Sorely tempted by this one however when I first saw this and sent a photo to someone I knew had an interest in such things, their first comment was 'shouldn't it say "grow not old" rather than "not grow old"?' I hadn't even noticed and of course this refers to the real thing not just the model. Not wanting to come across as critical as I like the idea, but had anyone else spotted it and any ideas why they haven't quoted the poem correctly or just a genuine mistake do you think? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James90012 Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Well the prices that the standard FGW power cars are going for this came at a good time. I think the error has been highlighted elsewhere but I'm not sure of any formal response as yet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown Warrior Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Sorely tempted by this one however when I first saw this and sent a photo to someone I knew had an interest in such things, their first comment was 'shouldn't it say "grow not old" rather than "not grow old"?' I hadn't even noticed and of course this refers to the real thing not just the model. Not wanting to come across as critical as I like the idea, but had anyone else spotted it and any ideas why they haven't quoted the poem correctly or just a genuine mistake do you think? "They shall grow not old" is correct but increasingly "They shall not grow old" is creeping in. Unfortunately FGW has got it wrong and the model is faithful to their mistake! Couldn't really be otherwise, could it?! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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