The Taddington branch of the LNWR

[Buckjumper]

Interesting reading - I've only just found your blog and have now read the post on milk trains. I'm afraid I don't know  great deal about the LNW except traffic in the London district, and I've still much to learn about even that. My D.46 vans will be mixed in with D.45 Meat and D.15 Beer vans along with some general merchandise wagons in a train with some comparative L&Y stock, all bound for the London markets. Quite how I facilitate that remains to be worked out. In reality I believe the North London was involved, but my MyUniverse with the extension lines in place, it might not be unrealistic to come up with some sort of quid pro quo with one of the other companies which had a more direct access.

 

I can't help with the WCJS query, except to say if they were built on the WCJS account, one would expect the WCJS to insist on its build plate being fitted on financial grounds.

[Caley Jim]

 

I would also make the assumption that is these vans were made on the WCJS account they would retain their oval build plate (the LNWR plates were rectangular) and WCJS number?

Presumably accounting practise would dictate this?

'A Register of West Coast Joint Stock' by Casserly and Millard (HMRS 1980) states that 50 refrigerator meat vans were built by the LNWR thought to be similar to their Dia 46.  They were numbered 287-336 and appear to have been painted in a plain dark grey livery with no markings on the body, although it is possible that in the c19th they were inscribed WCJS in small letters in the lower left corner.  The ownership and running number were on the usual cast iron plate on the solebar - so, yes, presumably an oval plate.

 

Jim

[Argos]

Hi Backjumper,
 
I've been looking into how the refrigerator and meat vans were rostered on the LNWR (I have a nice set of resin sides for a D45 meat van in the to do pile).
 
Despite posting this information on my blog:-

“Milk traffic had become quite important, and after a direct connection to the Cromford & High Peak Railway (CHPR) was opened, Buxton men used to go with empty vans to Longcliffe at 4am each morning and return with loaded vans working direct to Manchester. CHPR men were only allowed to work in daylight hours which is why Buxton men were used for this job. Later as an economy the vans were attached to the 9.20 a.m. passenger to Manchester”.
 
Reference in The LNWR Recalled (Edward Talbot) reveals in a chapter by Michael Bentley entitled “Buxton Engines & Man”
 
I am not entirely convinced that the D46 refrigerator vans ever ran with passenger trains. I have never seen a photo of these vans in a passenger train, and, given that the vans would be rostered at the head of the train, immediately behind the loco you'd have thought that photos would exist.

Next, although vacuumed braked I have never seen any evidence to suggest these vans were through piped for steam heating. If added to a passenger train in Buxton the vans would have the effect of refrigerating the passengers, Buxton's climate is hardly sub-tropical! (I say this as a nearby resident of 12 years). Conversely the North Staffs milk vans were through piped for steam heating and numerous photos existing showing them at the head of LNWR trains.

Another interesting note is included on the LNWR society's web site entry for the D93a brake van:-
 
http://www.lnwrs.org.uk/Wagons/brakes/Diag093A.php 
 
"These vacuum fitted Brake Vans are a single ended version of the double ended D93 design. Ten D93As were built in 1906 to Earlestown drawing no. 801 which survives as HMRS 1525 and is dated 6.1.06. They were needed to provide vacuum brake power on express goods trains dedicated to perishable traffic such as Refrigerator vans, Meat vans and Fruit (Banana) vans, all of which were fitted with vacuum brakes or through pipes. Previously these trains had to have a passenger brake van on the end to control their vacuum brakes."
 
So it would appear these wagons were assembled into vacuum braked block trains although individual wagons no doubt appeared in normal goods trains with their vacuum brakes bypassed. The use of passenger brakes is not unusual, there are photos on the C&HPR showing the use of passange brakes on goods trains prior to the introduction of vacuum brakes.
 

 
The D45 meat vans are a bit of mixture as not all were vacuumed braked, these would just be moved in standard goods trains. There are a couple of photos in LNWR Wagons Vol 2 of some of these vans with a single wood block pushrod brake. These vans also have 3' 7" Mansell wheels making them look achronistic. Strangely no attempt appears to have to lower the buffers to accommodate the raise in height from the standard wheels so the buffer centres are well above the adjacent coupled wagons. This would appear to be outwith the RCH spec, presumably the LNWR considered themselves above such things!

The photos were taken after grouping in 1923 and the wagons appear in good working condition.
 
I believe the D15 beer vans were moved individually, I think the Midland ran block beer trains from Burton to St Pancras which would have corned a large amount of the traffic flow into London.
 
Incidentally there are some great pre-grouping pics of the breweries around Burton on the Staffordshire Past tracks web site.
The first one of these is a micro layout on its own!

http://www.search.staffspasttrack.org.uk/Details.aspx?&ResourceID=4838&PageIndex=2&SearchType=4

http://www.search.staffspasttrack.org.uk/Details.aspx?&ResourceID=4785&SearchType=4

http://www.search.staffspasttrack.org.uk/Details.aspx?&ResourceID=4762&PageIndex=15&KeyWord=bass&SortOrder=2

 

The website will repay an hour or twos browse with a cup of coffee. There's some great photos even if some of the descriptions are a bit iffy.

 

This is turning into a bit of an epic, so I'll post here and continue later......
 

[Argos]

Cheers Jim,

 

I do have a copy of this book. The 1893 build appears to be the one that two vans were "borrowed" from for the Ladmanlow branch. I think the reference in LNWR Wagons vol 2 to 1891 is wrong as in the table at the end of this section in the book the build is shown 1893.

 

Incidentally 7 vans from this build of 50 seem to have been added to the LNWR stock. I am going to assume these would have been painted in LNWR livery but kept their WCJS number.

 

I just need to remove the soldered on number plate from the semi-finished van now! 

Edited November 24, 2015 by Argos

[Penlan]

..... there are photos on the C&HPR showing the use of passanger brakes on goods trains prior to the introduction of vacuum brakes.

Presumably like one of these I've done in 4mm, they had been downgraded to Engineers stock, so I'm tempted to say 'ex-passenger brakes'. 

 

I think it was Mike Williams who did an article on these a long time ago, but can't recall if in the LNRW Soc., or HMRS Journal.  I know I have it somewhere.

 

 

Edit, I have found the article, it's in Vol 1, No. 3, June 1994 of the LNWR Society Journal, pages 75 - 80.

The one in the article had been downgraded to a Ballast Brake prior to becoming an Engineering Dept Brake.

Ballast stock was sometimes allocated at Departmental level, rather than at Engineering Divisional levels.

My understanding is that this has been a topic within the LNWR Soc., but as I'm no longer a member, I don't have the details.

 

 

I got the Author wrong too, it was Bob, not Mike Williams.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Penlan

[Caley Jim]

I forgot to add in my earlier post (#27), for the benefit of those not in possession of the book, that these 50 vans were, like all WCJS, dual fitted.

 

Jim

[Argos]

Hi Penlan,

 

Snap(ish)

 

This model is currently in the work bench pipeline, still a bit of a way off getting to the paintshop.

 

John Marshall in "The Cromford & High Peak Railway" includes:-

 

"By 1873 the two passenger brake vans were worn out and an order was given on 16th July for their replacement 'by two Passenger Guards Brake Vans with four wheels', adding 'Mr Bore to supply two old vans of a description suitable for the requirements of the High Peak line'. They were ordered from duplicate stock."

 

On that basis I figured I could justify this model on goods trains (as the photo in post 28). Passenger traffic on the C&HPR ceased in April 1876 (it was never Board of Trade approved for the carriage of passengers so was operating illegally!). I presumed the Passenger brakes were just reassigned to the goods trains.

 

The build has stalled as I am trying to figure out what brake configuration to use. I got the kit cheap as the supplier could not supply any instructions or castings, although when the kit arrived he had sent on quite a few of the castings anyway.

 

I am erring towards full automatic vacuum brake so it can be used with vacuum brake stock such as the milk and refrigerator vans.

 

I hadn't considered that these van may have had guards verandas cut out as per your model.

I would be interested in the article you mention. If you know the source I'll track it down.

 

Thanks

 

Angus

Edited November 25, 2015 by Argos

[Argos]

Hi Jim,

 

I found a livery reference I had previously missed in LNWR Liveries, it's toward the back of the wagon section - "The WCJS also owned a considerable fleet of meat and refrigerator vans which were painted similarly to their LNWR counterparts, namely grey for ordinary meat vans and white for refrigerators, the later having grey underframes and curb rails"

 

Fortunately this is the livery I've painted!

 

There is also a photo of the 6 wheeled version (WCJS no 308) built in 1908 to replace accident victims, essentially two D46 vans spliced together.

 

One aspect that is puzzling me is the plate, I am sure I have seen reference (and a photo) of a WCJS number plate painted blue, I've check the usual sources (Caledonian Liveries, LNWR Liveries, A Register of West Coast Joint Stock plus a few others) but cannot find the reference again.

 

Does this ring any bells?

 

Thanks

 

Angus

Edited November 25, 2015 by Argos

[Penlan]

Argos, info in my edit, otherwise PM me.

 

The ref. for the photo showing the Brake gear - which is circa 1860, but evidently still in place circa 1900 is HMRS V2760, but searching the HMRS's photo data base shows nothing available.

 

Incidently I think the Ogee panel says LNWR XXX (new line) BREAK VAN.

 

In respect of the brass kit you have, I would have thought the guards door would have had a drop down window in it.  There's this well known photo of one at Coventry.. OK not very good view of the guards door, but I believe it to have a drop down glazed window.

I don't know if the small end windows in the end of Bob's Van or my model were there in passenger traffic days or not, some of the early Joseph Wright copy drawings I have do have this style of small window in the end with a brake compartment - The drawings were in the Birmingham Library Archives some 40 + years ago and I had micro filmed copies, the prints are A1 size or larger.

 

Looking at some of the well known late Victorian views of Birmingham New Street, the circa 1880's end brake coaches do have the small windows on the end to the guards compt.,  Annoyingly I can't find my copies of Richard Foster's History of Brum New St. where I could quote the references.
There is this circa 1870 view of an earlier brake end coach 

 

 

Edited November 25, 2015 by Penlan

[Caley Jim]

Hi Jim,

 

I found a livery reference I had previously missed in LNWR Liveries, it's toward the back of the wagon section - "The WCJS also owned a considerable fleet of meat and refrigerator vans which were painted similarly to their LNWR counterparts, namely grey for ordinary meat vans and white for refrigerators, the later having grey underframes and curb rails"

 

Fortunately this is the livery I've painted!

 

There is also a photo of the 6 wheeled version (WCJS no 308) built in 1908 to replace accident victims, essentially two D46 vans spliced together.

 

One aspect that is puzzling me is the plate, I am sure I have seen reference (and a photo) of a WCJS number plate painted blue, I've check the usual sources (Caledonian Liveries, LNWR Liveries, A Register of West Coast Joint Stock plus a few others) but cannot find the reference again.

 

Does this ring any bells?

 

Thanks

 

Angus

The livery comment in the LNWR book would seem to contradict that in the WCJS book, which is surprising given the authors of the latter.  Perhaps that information came to light after the WCJS book was published.

 

I have never heard anything about WCJS plates being blue!   I feel a query on the CR Assoc forum coming on!

 

Jim

[Buckjumper]

I am not entirely convinced that the D46 refrigerator vans ever ran with passenger trains. I have never seen a photo of these vans in a passenger train, and, given that the vans would be rostered at the head of the train, immediately behind the loco you'd have thought that photos would exist.

Next, although vacuumed braked I have never seen any evidence to suggest these vans were through piped for steam heating. If added to a passenger train in Buxton the vans would have the effect of refrigerating the passengers, Buxton's climate is hardly sub-tropical! (I say this as a nearby resident of 12 years). Conversely the North Staffs milk vans were through piped for steam heating and numerous photos existing showing them at the head of LNWR trains.

I doubt the LNW meat vans would have had steam heating fitted - they were in the goods register and steam heat would have been an extravagance for anything other than specific fruit or banana vans which often ripened the fruit by steam-heat en route to market. Milk vans, however, were rated non-passenger coaching stock - an entirely different class of animal, and given the dates of construction, and that steam heating was introduced on the North Staffs in 1910, I'd hazard, a guess that only the first three batches of the 6-wheel milk vans were retro-fitted and the rest fitted from new. Some also had a Westo thru-pipe for working air-braked foreign lines.

 

Another interesting note is included on the LNWR society's web site entry for the D93a brake van:-

 

 "These vacuum fitted Brake Vans are a single ended version of the double ended D93 design. Ten D93As were built in 1906 to Earlestown drawing no. 801 which survives as HMRS 1525 and is dated 6.1.06. They were needed to provide vacuum brake power on express goods trains dedicated to perishable traffic such as Refrigerator vans, Meat vans and Fruit (Banana) vans, all of which were fitted with vacuum brakes or through pipes. Previously these trains had to have a passenger brake van on the end to control their vacuum brakes."

 

So it would appear these wagons were assembled into vacuum braked block trains although individual wagons no doubt appeared in normal goods trains with their vacuum brakes bypassed. The use of passenger brakes is not unusual, there are photos on the C&HPR showing the use of passange brakes on goods trains prior to the introduction of vacuum brakes.

 

The D45 meat vans are a bit of mixture as not all were vacuumed braked, these would just be moved in standard goods trains. There are a couple of photos in LNWR Wagons Vol 2 of some of these vans with a single wood block pushrod brake. These vans also have 3' 7" Mansell wheels making them look achronistic. Strangely no attempt appears to have to lower the buffers to accommodate the raise in height from the standard wheels so the buffer centres are well above the adjacent coupled wagons. This would appear to be outwith the RCH spec, presumably the LNWR considered themselves above such things!

The photos were taken after grouping in 1923 and the wagons appear in good working condition.

 

Interesting about the use of a PVB until the D.93A's were built. The GW held out till 1897 when it introduced a short vac-braked brake to compliment the vac-braked X2 MICA B meat vans introduced that year, and were only between Acton and Smithfield Market - I don't yet know what they used as a brake for the meat vans from Birkenhead to Acton.

 

In re buffer heights; IIRC although the RCH acceptable standard was 3'4" from rail top to buffer centre, in practice the acceptable leeway for most railways was 3'3" - 3'6" give or take a smidgen. ISTR the LNW generally aimed for 3'5½" unladen. Given worn springs and a full load, a wagon could easily settle by a couple of inches or more. Conversely new springs and no load could make a wagon sit higher than expected. It's a quandary for us modellers who tend to try to standardise on buffing and drawgear heights for the purposes of acceptable running. The real thing was far less affected by these issues.

 

I'd agree about block trains, and other companies did the same. I've a photo of a block train of 20+ LSWR refrigerator vans at one of the London docks, of GW MICAs at Acton, and the GE ran fitted fast goods en block from 1905 onwards. I'm sure a wealth of other companies did the same. However, the interesting slant for me is that on short trip to Smithfield - only 20 vans + a short brake were allowed at a time, so the GW block trains were broken up at destination. Further study of the WTT shows that of the four daily meat trips to Smithfield, only one was dedicated meat - the rest were meat + general merchandise, so the fitted vans were mixed in with unbraked stock. I'm looking to recreate a similar scenario with the LNW goods. I think this is a good decision on the grounds of both finances and sanity - a vast number of fitted vans might look good on the layout, but I'd be fit for bankruptcy and the loony bin by the time I'd built the last one.

 

I believe the D15 beer vans were moved individually, I think the Midland ran block beer trains from Burton to St Pancras which would have corned a large amount of the traffic flow into London.

 

That's encouraging!  Interesting about the Midland block beer trains - I didn't know that, so thanks - that's something else for me to chase up.

 

Don't underestimate the voracity of consumption by Victorian Londoners, poor or otherwise; for example over in the East End, the two ten-story granaries at Brick Lane which had a footprint of three acres could only store enough grain to feed the 1860s 3 million Londoners for two days. It's been estimated that if the ECR (and later GE) stopped daily transportation of grain into town, 30,000 would have died of starvation after just the first week, the numbers then rising exponentially.  Add to that 10 block-trains of coal came in daily to feed the domestic requirements of those living within just a few furlongs of the GE main line, amounting to almost a million tons burnt at the hearth per year.

 

So I'm sure that despite the Midland's block beer trains and the bitter (ha!) rivalry of the Midland and LNW, the raging thirst of Londoners across the city would have ensured enough room for the latter to access markets in the capital.

 

Incidentally there are some great pre-grouping pics of the breweries around Burton on the Staffordshire Past tracks web site.

The first one of these is a micro layout on its own!

Wow - fabulous photos! As you say, the first one would make a great micro, but that third one is the one which grabs me - what a backdrop the buildings on the right would make.

 

Apologies - I seem to have caused your thread to digress a little!

[Argos]

Thanks Penlan,

 

Embarrassingly I have been working from the Coventry photo for the build of the brake van. I never noticed the drop light!

 

Am I excused if I've just picked my first pair of bifocals?

In fairness both copies of this photo I have aren't to the resolution you've posted here.

 

As regards the brakes I have several references in my collection, A Register of West Coast Joint Stock gives a good drawing of the early brakes, and there is a great photo in one of Ted Talbot's books of a 6w tri-composite with early vacuum brakes (vac sac and non-automatic). The later Vac brakes are shown in Peter Tatlow's Historic Carriage Drawings Vol 3 - NPCS.

I also believe the horizontal vac sac was used for a period.

 

I am tempted to go with the detail in the Tatlow book, although this maybe too late for the period modelled. I am assuming the vans have been upgraded to cope with the vacuum brake traffic coming off the C&HPR at the same time as the vacuum equipment was added to the Crewe Goods tank.

[Argos]

"I have never heard anything about WCJS plates being blue! I feel a query on the CR Assoc forum coming on!"

(for some reason "reply quoting this post" does not seem to be working)

 

Cheers Jim, as I say it is probably a figment of my imagination as I can't find the reference after a sustain hunt.

 

I must get round to joining the CR Assoc, and the LNWRS for that matter.

I've been threatening for long enough.

 

Angus

[Penlan]

In fairness both copies of this photo I have aren't to the resolution you've posted here.

There's some good references etc., on http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/ web site.

I will leave you to find your way around, but clicking on the left hand coloumn of routes, especially with Brum New St., click on one of the stations in the line diagram (New Street?) and then scroll down to the bottom of the text...  plenty of early photo's there.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Penlan

[Argos]

Hi Backjumper,
 
Don't worry about the diversion, the forum is Pre-grouping - Modelling & Prototype so all grist to the mill.

"Don't underestimate the voracity of consumption by Victorian Londoners " - Post 36
 
I recall watching a programme about the refurbishment of St Pancras, I seem to recall a large basement under the main station area was given over to a beer dock and storage vaults to handle the Burton beer flows. The Midland is not my core interest so I might be off the mark here.

"I'm afraid I don't know great deal about the LNW except traffic in the London district, and I've still much to learn about even that. My D.46 vans will be mixed in with D.45 Meat and D.15 Beer vans along with some general merchandise wagons in a train with some comparative L&Y stock, all bound for the London markets. Quite how I facilitate that remains to be worked out. In reality I believe the North London was involved, but my MyUniverse with the extension lines in place, it might not be unrealistic to come up with some sort of quid pro quo with one of the other companies which had a more direct access." - Post 26
 
The LNWR were dab hands at getting access to urban centres away from their own railhead and joint lines. Large LNWR goods depots existed in Sheffield (accessed via the MS&LR later the GCR), Cardiff (via the Rhymney Railway) Burton on Tent and Derby (via the Midland?). Others existed also.
 
In your geography four LNWR depots existed in the East End. The were all accessed via running rights over the NLR. Locations were Old Ford, Bow and two depots at Poplar presumably serving the East and West India Docks. All four are close to GER lines. The GER linked to the NLR at Bow via the Gas work Junction. The GER also linked to the NLR at Poplar. Presumably plenty of opportunity would have exited to exchange traffic at these points.
 
I am afraid I don't know much about the L&Y other than they had a close relationship with the LNWR. They tried to merge several times, ultimately succeeding the year prior to grouping.
 
The North Staffordshire would presumably access via the LNWR.
There is a great photo of a Staffordshire (NSR registered) P.O wagon being unloaded at Poplar docks here:-

http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10446326&itemw=4&itemf=0004&itemstep=1&itemx=13

 
It does show that traffic from The Staffordshire coalfields found their way into the East End.
 
Hope this helps.
 
Angus

Edited November 25, 2015 by Argos

[Penlan]

I'm not sure how the Burton beer got to Swansea, but there were many outlets in Swansea in the pre-group period.

Possible Midland via Hereford and the Neath & Brecon, but the N&B knowledgeable man (Tudor Watkins) doesn't recall seeing any reference to Midland Beer traffic over the N&B to St Thomas' in Swansea.
Something at the back of my mind is saying the LNWR brought it down, but I can't recall where I've seen it referenced, but that is some 40+ years of interest in the Central Wales line I'm trying dredge through.

[Argos]

Well, a bit of heat from the soldering iron and some force from a small screwdriver successfully removed the offending LNWR number plates from the refrigerator van. All the solder has now been cleaned up and the solebars just need repainting. No excuse for not using the WCJS plates and changed lettering.

 

I've also been playing around with numerous plates and lettering, I'll post some photo later.

 

On a different note, the dulcote has arrived...........dare I try it?

 

I've also found a tin of Halford's lacquer I've bought at some point in the past. Has anyone any experience of this, particularly in sub-optimal spraying conditions? 

Edited November 28, 2015 by Argos

[Argos]

ERRATUM:-

 

Back in Post 25 I said the HMRS lettering for "Return to Liverpool" was grey, looking again they are distinctly black!

 

In Post 28 I made mention of steam heating and the fact that the refrigerator vans were not through piped for this were as the NSR milk vans were.

A comment by Backjumper in his reply made me go and check. In actuality the LNWR did not install steam heating until 1907, and then only to premier stock. I guess the good people of Buxton would have to be resilient to the cold!

 

The through piping on the NSR van is not steam heating but the second brake system, being duel braked. The NSR was heavily dependent upon running over numerous neighbouring companies lines need their stock to be compatible with these. There are certainly pictures of NSR stock running on West Coast trains where duel braking would be required to enable both the Caley and LNWR to handle the train.

[ChrisN]

This is all fascinating.  I model the Cambrian in 1895 but there were close connections to the LNWR and its goods stock will certainly have to make an appearance.  I had not realised that fully fitted goods trains ran as early as they did.

[Argos]

The next two wagons on the paint bench have their paint finished :-

 

 

Which just leaves the small matter of producing the plates and lettering not covered by the various decal sheets available.

 

Having successfully produced some LNWR number plates in excel I thought I'd get a bit more ambitious. I've now produced all the "missing wording for several vehicles in the build pipeline. This includes WCJS number plates, LNWR number plates, LNWR 4" numbers in black for white vans, "Tons" lettering for NSR opens, various labels and plates for a LNWR gunpowder van and load lettering for an NSR milk van.

 

Following KirtleyPete's example I have printed some with a colour background, matched to the wagon so I can overlay a whole panel or plank. I am also trying out some decal paper, in this instance that sold by the 4D modelshop ( www.modelshop.co.uk ).

 

All the prints have been produced in Excel, as this is the programme I am most familiar with, I am intending to trial the software package suggested by kirtleypete in his "Painting Locomotives without (Much) paint topic" and associated book. The plan is to play around with a planking print for the interior of the Midland Coke wagons. The only compromise I have had to make is with the lettering on the WCJS plate this is a series of 4 straight words rather than a graceful arc of lettering. I think I can live with the compromise as it will be all but unnoticeable on the finish model (hopefully!).

 

The first print on plain paper was, frankly disappointing

 

 

A lot of the detail of the lettering is lost to ink bleed, but from previous experience producing the LNWR plates I knew photo would offer better resolution.

 

 

 

What I wasn't expecting was the uneven blotchiness of the red for the gunpowder van.  Still the prints without colour backing look great.

 

Finally I printed onto Decal paper, having read the instructions I re-rendered the white print with a pale cream as recommended by the instructions as not all printers print white. This will reduce the starkness of the decals anyway and help blend the model.

 

 

 

 

The blotchy colour print has not re-occurred on the decal paper and the resolution is even better than the photo paper.

Overall I am really happy with the various outcomes.

 

All I need to do now is get them onto the vans and wagons!

Edited November 29, 2015 by Argos

[ChrisN]

It is good to see someone else printing out wording/decals for wagons etc.  It is interesting that you use Excel, it is just another program to consider when I eventually need to do my own

[Argos]

Thanks Chris,

 

I should point out that the only reason I used Excel was may familiarity with it. As a commercial manager I'm regularly generating charts, graphs and dashboards so use the graphic functions quite intensively.

I initially tried Publisher and Paint but got frustrated because I knew I could produce the designs quicker in Excel.

 

What I've produced here is probably the realistic limit of what can be done in Excel.

It would be possible to produce more complex designs, however, it would be more time consuming than using a dedicated graphic programmes.

I certainly could not produce the complex logos and wash effects Pete has managed.

 

Regards Angus
 

Edited November 29, 2015 by Argos

[Argos]

A slight step back, well more of a pause, today.

 

The decal paper "recommends" in the instruction that once printed the decals are coated with Decal Film solution.

I didn't have any and, after trying in vain at the local model/art shop, I gave it a try without doing this. It was, after all, only "recommended".

 

All I finished up with was clear decal paper as the water washed the ink off the paper, I guess I should have seen that coming!

I trialled a couple of the smaller decals first so all is not lost.

 

Another model shop slightly further afield has decal film solution in stock so I'll pop out tomorrow and get some.

I'll post how I get on.

[Penlan]

There's a lot about decal paper etc., on this topic http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/100227-painting-locomotives-without-much-paint/

 

I think you need to go to pages 4 - 6 for the decal information, all the earlier pages are about using ordinary printed paper in 7mm, but it does cover Decals later.  

My own attempts are in postings on page 4, postings #76 & #78.

 

I'm sure it's been covered in Traeth Mawr too, but that is a long topic - 1,726 postings so far... 

Edited November 30, 2015 by Penlan

[Argos]

Thanks Penlan,

 

I have been following (and contributing in very minor way) to Pete's thread.

Most of the advice on that thread was in regard to "Crafty Computer Paper" (unless I've missed something).

I'm using a different brand so thought it might perform differently.

 

Sadly this is not the case!