“WASHBOURNE”

[Nearholmer]

Lining - you are a courageous fellow to tackle that, and it looks great.

 

K

[Northroader]

Thanks, Kevin, looking at the picture, I'm thinking a little point there, a little stroke here.

[Northroader]

Here's a shot of what I'm installing for point operation. I'm trying to stick with a simple, compact, mechanical way, and placing them close to the edge of the baseboard at the front, where they'll end up tucked down behind the front facing strip, and they'll be painted brown all over. It's just a piece of copper tube placed vertically, with projecting lug at the bottom carrying a screw through which the tiebar linkage goes. Two brass strips go either side of the tube giving little wings for turning by hand. A screw passes down the tube into the baseboard, and there's a washer between the board and the tube. Tightening the screw down can give just enough "nip" to stop the mechanism from creeping. See how this does in usage, its more reliable than the first throw.

You can also see this bit of ply is a historic document, as it's got the original plan pencilled in on it.

[Northroader]

Well, I'm still running tests on the double slip between times, another shim has appeared dead opposite the first I showed you, so definitely disqualified from entering in "Platelayer of the Year" contest. I'm propelling a set of wagons through, and still not fully satisfied yet. At present I can approach in three directions, the fourth way snakes off behind the scenery of the right hand baseboard, to a fiddle yard. The design of this has been hardened down, so I must lay this before I can make up my mind on the double slip.

In the meantime the C & W shop has turned out the second kit I got at the Reading trade show, another Furness Wagons job. I bought it as a GWR wood body outside framed van dating from the 1880s, before the 'iron minks' came out. The body is resin castings, which I put together with 24hour araldite. The frame is brass etchings, soldered up, and white metal castings, which I epoxied on, being a coward. A piece of 2 x 1 went inside for weight, and the roof made up. This is brass sheet, and was etched with curves for rain strips, made from brass rod, and soldered on, and then the roof glued on. There's a lot of little etched bits which you stamp out for rivets which form the reinforcement where each of all the framing struts meet. With all these in position, I thought the door needed a bit of detail, and dug out a very good drawing, by Mr. Kenneth Werrett in the Feb. '66 MRN. As the photo shows, I was a bit slipshod here, just using plain rectangles of plastikard for hinges, and rod for the vertical bolt. Looking at the drawing, it struck me there wasn't a rain strip, and I don't have any pictures to check for this. The GER also built vans which were dead ringers of the GWR ones, which Furness also produce, so dig out a drawing of these (Tatlow, "LNER wagons") The drawing again misses the rainstrip, but a photo shows one with them in LNER times. What about dimensions? The GER bodies were 6" longer and 6" higher than the GWR ones, and checking out the model, the GER sizes have been used, so I've got a GER van wearing a GWR hat. You might have noticed Washbourne tries to be an equal faith, multi gender, trans opportunities, inter cultural layout, so GER vans are just as welcome as GWR ones, and so ---, it's been painted slate grey (GWR paint wearing a GER hat) and lettered accordingly.

[Edwardian]

Well, I'm still running tests on the double slip between times, another shim has appeared dead opposite the first I showed you, so definitely disqualified from entering in "Platelayer of the Year" contest. I'm propelling a set of wagons through, and still not fully satisfied yet. At present I can approach in three directions, the fourth way snakes off behind the scenery of the right hand baseboard, to a fiddle yard. The design of this has been hardened down, so I must lay this before I can make up my mind on the double slip.

In the meantime the C & W shop has turned out the second kit I got at the Reading trade show, another Furness Wagons job. I bought it as a GWR wood body outside framed van dating from the 1880s, before the 'iron minks' came out. The body is resin castings, which I put together with 24hour araldite. The frame is brass etchings, soldered up, and white metal castings, which I epoxied on, being a coward. A piece of 2 x 1 went inside for weight, and the roof made up. This is brass sheet, and was etched with curves for rain strips, made from brass rod, and soldered on, and then the roof glued on. There's a lot of little etched bits which you stamp out for rivets which form the reinforcement where each of all the framing struts meet. With all these in position, I thought the door needed a bit of detail, and dug out a very good drawing, by Mr. Kenneth Werrett in the Feb. '66 MRN. As the photo shows, I was a bit slipshod here, just using plain rectangles of plastikard for hinges, and rod for the vertical bolt. Looking at the drawing, it struck me there wasn't a rain strip, and I don't have any pictures to check for this. The GER also built vans which were dead ringers of the GWR ones, which Furness also produce, so dig out a drawing of these (Tatlow, "LNER wagons") The drawing again misses the rainstrip, but a photo shows one with them in LNER times. What about dimensions? The GER bodies were 6" longer and 6" higher than the GWR ones, and checking out the model, the GER sizes have been used, so I've got a GER van wearing a GWR hat. You might have noticed Washbourne tries to be an equal faith, multi gender, trans opportunities, inter cultural layout, so GER vans are just as welcome as GWR ones, and so ---, it's been painted slate grey (GWR paint wearing a GER hat) and lettered accordingly.IMG_0895.JPG

Great job on that van.

 

Now all I need to do is sneak up on it with my Shrink-O-Matic machine .....  

[Nearholmer]

I do love them outside framed wagons, and that is looking very nice.

 

Any possibility that they were contractor-built, or copied from a contractor? That would explain the similarity between designs, and that end- bracing is quite distinctive, so ought to be traceable to one maker, I think.

 

K

[Northroader]

It is a van which would be a must for CA, you could upsize everything else as an alternative? G'wan, g'wan. I think the common factor on the van design is James Holden. He was Dean's principal assistant at Swindon, up to 1885, which was when these vans were being built, when he went to Stratford as Loco superintendent for the GER and I suppose having the say on the c&w side as well. The vans are remarkably similar, and I suppose he offered the design to the traffic bods, who just wanted the size upped a little bit. This theory fits the facts nicely, and I doubt if either outfit was buying freight vehicles from outside at that time? It could also link in with things like clerestory coaches.

Edited February 13, 2017 by Northroader

[MarcD]

The difference between the last batch of GWR box vans and the GER standard box van was actually just the angle of the head stock. GWR had a square end and the GER ones were tapered. there was a smaller GER version that was 15ft long. the GWR vans started at 15ft6 but the last batch of 1888, the same year as the first iron mink were built, were on the now standard 16ft under frame. Our GER kit also has the option of vents on the ends.

 

Marc

[Mikkel]

Oh that is nice! I never knew the GER vans were so similar to the GWR O/F ones.

 

It's good to see a PC layout. In fact, PC has become so un-PC that PC is now becoming PC 

[Edwardian]

It is a van which would be a must for CA, you could upsize everything else as an alternative? G'wan, g'wan. I think the common factor on the van design is James Holden. He was Dean's principal assistant at Swindon, up to 1885, which was when these vans were being built, when he went to Stratford as Loco superintendent for the GER and I suppose having the say on the c&w side as well. The vans are remarkably similar, and I suppose he offered the design to the traffic bods, who just wanted the size upped a little bit. This theory fits the facts nicely, and I doubt if either outfit was buying freight vehicles from outside at that time? It could also link in with things like clerestory coaches.

 

Good points about Holden, I don't doubt you're are right.

 

Although I am aware that some affluent souls have paid to have Furness Wagon 7mm kits produced in 4mm, I am afraid the cost would be way out of reach for me.

[MarcD]

Good points about Holden, I don't doubt you're are right.

 

Although I am aware that some affluent souls have paid to have Furness Wagon 7mm kits produced in 4mm, I am afraid the cost would be way out of reach for me.

 

Our latest brake van is available to print in 4mm from our Shapeways shop. As we utilise printing more in 7mm then our 4mm range will increase accordingly.

 

Marc    

[Edwardian]

Our latest brake van is available to print in 4mm from our Shapeways shop. As we utilise printing more in 7mm then our 4mm range will increase accordingly.

 

Marc    

 

Thanks, I'll check it out, though this is an inevitably expensive medium for a full wagon kit, which might keep me to plastic bashing and bodging for some time to come! 

 

EDIT: Checked it out.  Very impressive, but with each component sold separately for £3-4 odd each, that is an incredibly expensive route to a complete vehicle.  I'm sorry, but I could never imagine wanting a given wagon that much, and would scratch-build as an alternative.  It takes me back to the Coopercraft topic; modern alternatives in resin and 3D print are just too damn expensive to consider as an alternative to the injection moulded ranges of the past.

 

I admire what you do, but I will have to remain outside with my nose pressed up against the window.  I don't know who the heck can afford to model railways at this cost, but I am not among them!

Edited February 14, 2017 by Edwardian

[MarcD]

Its still a lot cheaper than commissioning a new wagon kit  or asking for a one off. We charge £25 per hour for designing/and building which cheaper than getting you car serviced as that would cost you up wards of £40 per hour. A standard wagon might take 15 hours to research and design, £375, then there is the cost of the prototype, £100, writing the instructions, £75, cost of etching art work £100, moulds, £80, totalling  £730 and that before the cost of manufacturing the production models are taken in to consideration and we probably only sell 30-40 of any type of wagon. Hence the cost. We rarely make a profit on a kit. If I was being brutally honest I would be better off stacking shelves in Tesco.

 

Marc

[Edwardian]

Its still a lot cheaper than commissioning a new wagon kit  or asking for a one off. We charge £25 per hour for designing/and building which cheaper than getting you car serviced as that would cost you up wards of £40 per hour. A standard wagon might take 15 hours to research and design, £375, then there is the cost of the prototype, £100, writing the instructions, £75, cost of etching art work £100, moulds, £80, totalling  £730 and that before the cost of manufacturing the production models are taken in to consideration and we probably only sell 30-40 of any type of wagon. Hence the cost. We rarely make a profit on a kit. If I was being brutally honest I would be better off stacking shelves in Tesco.

 

Marc

 

Marc,

 

And very impressive the results are too.  I don't doubt what you say, or that this is what it costs.  I don't doubt that you are far from profiteering.

 

None of this makes it any easier to afford such products, however.  Rather, it proves that new kits are simply uneconomic prospects for many of us. Can't afford your prices, can't afford Mousa's.  Even chasing down a second-hand Slaters's kit on Ebay is significantly cheaper. Cheaper by a Country Mile, in fact.

 

Many people will simply be unable and unwilling to support new kit manufacture, or get into kit building, at such prices.  I simply cannot spare you that much money, so, to paraphrase the Duke of Wellington, I have nothing to give you but my best wishes! 

[Nearholmer]

I'm having a deep old think about this right now because, after a decade of being "utterly time-starved; funds OK", I have a choice about whether to climb back into the hamster-wheel, or to opt for "reasonable amounts of time; funds much more modest". Railway modelling isn't exactly the top factor to consider, but this is all making me realise that the models that I value most are the ones that I invested time in building/modifying, not the ones that I invested time in earning the money to buy.

 

Personally, I'm not competent to scratchbuild in 4mm/ft, and even in 7mm/ft I find fine-detail a bit of a pain in the eye, but above that, and especially once one gets to 15mm/ft, it isn't at all difficult, and it is very cheap! Really, the only things that need to be bought-in ready-made are wheel-sets and bearings, the rest can be from raw material, and if you are pressed, that can be cardboard, although ply and strip-wood are nicer.

 

Which is a rather roundabout way of saying that scratchbuilding and modifying should possibly be the first, not the last, resort, and kits and r-t-r should be viewed as ways of saving time, when the business of life gets in the way of model-making, rather than the ideals.

 

Kevin

Edited February 14, 2017 by Nearholmer

[Edwardian]

I'm having a deep old think about this right now because, after a decade of being "utterly time-starved; funds OK", I have a choice about whether to climb back into the hamster-wheel, or to opt for "reasonable amounts of time; funds much more modest". Railway modelling isn't exactly the top factor to consider, but this is all making me realise that the models that I value most are the ones that I invested time in building/modifying, not the ones that I invested time in earning the money to buy.

 

Personally, I'm not competent to scratchbuild in 4mm/ft, and even in 7mm/ft I find fine-detail a bit of a pain in the eye, but above that, and especially once one gets to 15mm/ft, it isn't at all difficult, and it is very cheap! Really, the only things that need to be bought-in ready-made are wheel-sets and bearings, the rest can be from raw material, and if you are pressed, that can be cardboard, although ply and strip-wood are nicer.

 

Which is a rather roundabout way of saying that scratchbuilding and modifying should possibly be the first, not the last, resort, and kits and r-t-r should be viewed as ways of saving time, when the business of life gets in the way of model-making, rather than the ideals.

 

Kevin

 

I agree.  Scratch-building is an end in itself.

 

There are simple and inexpensive kits, e.g. Cambrian Kits, out there.  I can try to progress from straight builds of these to conversions, to scratch-builds as a result of the experienced gained.  Scratch-building being a very desirable end.  If someone producies an easy and economic alternative in a particular case, I will not shun it.  But, I won't shun scratch-building for the sake of a very expensive alternative either!

 

Sorry to Northroader for my Off Topic angst!

[Northroader]

What larks, eh, Pip? No, James, you're right, raising the matter of what it's going to cost to get a model you want is something that concerns us all. For a long time now, I've been scratchbuilding, mainly because of my chosen scale, O, which I go for because I like the bulk. Loco kits are dear, and pregroup stuff minimal. In OO, you're quite competently demonstrating how to adapt hand me down stuff to get the effect you want, I just wish you could get the same cheap items to mess round with in O, although there are a few in the wagon shop at present. Cobbling takes time, and scratch building takes even more,and I do get frustrated with a lack of progress, particularly now I'm aging, so I feel if I can cut some corners by getting the odd kit, or even RTR, so much the better. So far I'm not sleeping rough, as a result. I get the idea, Kevin, that you're on much the same course, and a few years behind, and getting to the same conclusions.

Marc, of Furness Models, many thanks for coming on the thread,

A) thanks for the explanation of differences and likenesses on the GER / GWR van, you've obviously gone much deeper into it than I.

B) thanks for your honest account of just what goes into the cost of producing a kit, I'm used to Ogauge costs, and find yours quite comparable with the rest, and well worth paying.

C) thanks for the effort put in to produce pre group wagon kits, it is a gap in the market which you'll doing well to fill, and I'm glad you're not stacking shelves.

D) thanks for your service at the shows, despite the costs, you always give a happy mien. (I'm the nitwit who asks who wants another gunpowder van anyway, and then asks for the one you're currently out of stock of)

I like to slip in a picture for entertainment if I can, this ones for Kevin, but not scratchbuilt, I'm sorry to say. Gauge 1, 10mm/ ft, "Gottersee" by Kevin Smith, seen at an Oxford European show in 1994. Simple terminus to fiddle yard, with the size of these models, it couldn't be anything else, a Prussian T14 with donnerbuchsen. The sheer weight and bulk make it totally magnificent,

Bob.

[Guest Isambarduk]

Just remember that when Slater's super plastic injection moulded wagon kits first came available, at about £6 I seem to recall, they were far too expensive for me to consider as a young man.   Us 'youngsters' had to make do with 3H kits and spend a lot of time on improving them until we had earned enough to be able to justify splashing out on the Slater's offerings.  Here are three examples of my early attempts:
 

3H wagons: 5-plank open, 7-plank mineral and ex-MR 8T van

More captioned pictures at:www.davidlosmith.co.uk/Gauge0Fine.htm

 

 

David

 

 

[Andy Hayter]

£6? - you were robbed.

 

I am now going through my "to be made" box and have a lot listed at £2 (no wheels - so I guess later sales from Slaters/ their trade customers) and some reduced from that base price.

 

However, your work in the depths of penury is excellent.  So maybe a price well worth paying. 

[Northroader]

3H, or THREE AITCH MODELS, as it's got underneath. Very good looking wagons, too, David. I have to confess when they came out I hadn't yet got into O scale, but I would imagine a great shout of "At last!" came from O guage practitioners. They're a simple kit which makes up well, the only thing I don't like are the plastic buffers, but very relevant to the discussion we've been having on cost of wagon kits. Pity they've gone the way of all good things. As you probably know, you can still find second hand ones on GOG dos, at the bring and buy, or the exec. & trustee, just needing a bit of TLC. Here's a few from my mineral wagon fleet:

Another job has just appeared out of the wagon shop, although this was only needing paint. Mikkel's workbench thread has recently had a good debate on the GWR 'iron mink' van, and detailing the same. I dug mine out, which I've had for some time. Question is, did I make it, or buy it second hand. Whose kit is it anyway, 43to1, perhaps? Memory failure on this one. I posted a picture, and decided it really ought to be backdated to have the red paint scheme, another thorny item of colour, on the lines of Stroudley Green / Yellow. My view is that Victorian paint pigments didn't come out of a test tube the same way as modern paints do, and the cost of pigments varied greatly. The vermilion, aka signal red, or post office red, was an expensive pigment, and wouldn't have gone on the whole of the wagon fleet without the directors having total meltdown. A lot of private owner wagons had red oxide, which was a dark red brown, and more economical. My dad worked in an engineering works making large girders, and used to bring what they used to paint everything before it went out, for jobs outside at home. This was called red lead, in reality a bright orange, and my fancy is this formed a base for the GWR colour. Mr. Nigel Digby did a series on the colours of the old pregroup companies, and I put my wagon against his artwork, in the British Railway Modelling for Jan 2003.

This is quite a light red, with a tendency to orange, I think of it as terracotta, same as a flowerpot, although there's absolutely no real grounds for this. I've put some chalk dust weathering on it as well. The last job I showed was the van, GER, but could just as well be a GWR woodbodied built previous to the minks, so I put the pair together for comparison.

 

[Compound2632]

Another job has just appeared out of the wagon shop, although this was only needing paint. Mikkel's workbench thread has recently had a good debate on the GWR 'iron mink' van, and detailing the same. I dug mine out, which I've had for some time. Question is, did I make it, or buy it second hand. Whose kit is it anyway, 43to1, perhaps? Memory failure on this one. I posted a picture, and decided it really ought to be backdated to have the red paint scheme, another thorny item of colour, on the lines of Stroudley Green / Yellow. My view is that Victorian paint pigments didn't come out of a test tube the same way as modern paints do, and the cost of pigments varied greatly. The vermilion, aka signal red, or post office red, was an expensive pigment, and wouldn't have gone on the whole of the wagon fleet without the directors having total meltdown. A lot of private owner wagons had red oxide, which was a dark red brown, and more economical. My dad worked in an engineering works making large girders, and used to bring what they used to paint everything before it went out, for jobs outside at home. This was called red lead, in reality a bright orange, and my fancy is this formed a base for the GWR colour. Mr. Nigel Digby did a series on the colours of the old pregroup companies, and I put my wagon against his artwork, in the British Railway Modelling for Jan 2003.

 

This is quite a light red, with a tendency to orange, I think of it as terracotta, same as a flowerpot, although there's absolutely no real grounds for this. I've put some chalk dust weathering on it as well. The last job I showed was the van, GER, but could just as well be a GWR woodbodied built previous to the minks, so I put the pair together for comparison.

 I note Digby shows black below the solebar - point to Mikkel...

[Northroader]

Whoops, looking at Digbys drawing I've got the push rods ar** backwards, silly boy!

[Donw]

Good points about Holden, I don't doubt you're are right.

 

Although I am aware that some affluent souls have paid to have Furness Wagon 7mm kits produced in 4mm, I am afraid the cost would be way out of reach for me.

 

I am increasingly coming to the opinion that there is a lot of pleasure in making something yourself. For one thing you don't get upset with the instructions! It can take a bit of extra time but that somehow seems fitting with a minor railway.

Don

[ChrisN]

I am increasingly coming to the opinion that there is a lot of pleasure in making something yourself. For one thing you don't get upset with the instructions! It can take a bit of extra time but that somehow seems fitting with a minor railway.

Don

 

This is interesting, and I apologise for an off topic comment, ( and to those who have heard similar things from me before.)  When I started main line modelling again my thoughts were around kit building and R-T-R locos..  I had done some 009 which meant everything had to be kit built except the chassis of the locos.  In fact I did wonder why you would want R-T-R 009 when you coud kit build everything.  Scratch building I thought was way beyond what I could do, although I would happily try kit bashing.  Having made the interior of a station building I thought it ought to be possible to make the outsides as well.  The rest is history, as they say.  Does this mean I shall not peruse Furness Wagon's Shapeways site, or Sparkshots, or Quarryscapes, or Mike  Trice's or JCL's?  (Trying not to leave out any I know in even handedness.)  No, I will look and buy kits that either make life easier, or I really think I cannot make.  I do look very hard at the price, but then there is always Christmas.

[Guest Isambarduk]

"£6? - you were robbed."

 

No I wasn't!  Because I didn't buy any :-)  I did say "I seem to recall" but it was a long time ago; they were certainly around £6 at one time! 

 

There was quite a bit of discussion on the G0G Forum about how much Three Aitch Models kits cost, what was included in the way of wheels, what was not and when.  Some questions were left unanswered but it was generally agreed that they were cheap but mediocre even in their day, but that they were greatly appreciated for their potential. Yes, indeed, 'THREE AITCH MODELS' is moulded in relief underneath the underframes but 'I seem to recall' that the cardboard header, which also included the instructions inside, was branded 3H.

 

I always fitted my own sprung steel buffers, sometimes reworking the 3H stocks but often turning up anew.

 

David