3D Designs Worth?

[cornishmad]

Hi Guys,

 

I have over 300 railway related 3d designs all 3d printable from Locos to lamp posts which I have designed over the years (some crackers too like my "City of Truro" I was wondering if it is worth my time to start selling them so people can print at home in any scale? Or sell them already printed and what would the cost be for a file that you can print and print and print but not commercially unless agreed prior of course. ( I have no idea!)

 

My passion is the design and first print and once I have this I move on the next where a full steam train with high detail I can do in about 14hrs including stl part splitting etc etc..

 

I can work from photos but easier with plans though lol, Oh and not forgetting my 3d scanners

 

Thanks All 

[raymw]

I'm guessing the files would be stl or some other general format. The user would have to 'slice' them, whatever to run on their specific printer, and would have the usual problems in the first few prints. Depending on the model, I think for smaller items, lamp posts and the like, it would be pennies for an stl file, maybe a pound or two for a decent wagon/coach but the accuracy of the drawing would have to be pretty good.

 

wrt protection of the design - you'd have a bit of a problem proving anything, in particular if it was good enough that it was actually used in commercial production.

 

A number of folk seem to load the drawings up to shapeways or other such place, and leave the production and money collection to them, if you wanted to sell the completed item.

[Rabs]

I suspect that you'd have no choice but to operate an honesty system and trust that people won't just take your designs and sell them on if you specifically ask them to.  As raymw says, actually enforcing anything would be almost impossible.  I suppose you have to follow Microsoft's example - sell the designs or prints, knowing that some people will unfairly copy it, and console yourself with the knowledge that you are still better off than if you didn't sell them at all!

 

On file formats: You'll get a larger market if you don't make it scale specific.  However, to do this you will need to sell the models in a format that people can then work with to make suitable for their particular scale, chassis, motor etc.  I suggest STP, IGES and Parasolid files (as well as STLs) for this. 

 

I would absolutely love to have a go at your City or Truro on my 3D printer (see link below) and would be very happy to pay for a copy of the CAD files on the understanding that they are only for my own use and that I can't redistribute the files or the prints.

 

Could you publish a list of what you have modelled?

[Revolution Mike]

The alternative of course is to do what most people do and upload them to Shapeways (or similar) and then you can let people pay for them and have them printed as necessary (and you don't have to worry about people sharing your files etc).  You can also set a markup on Shapeways printing costs.

 

Cheers, Mike

[cornishmad]

Thanks all for your input, I will get a list of what I have. Also there is a 3d cloud printing that adds drm to stl files (limit prints) but we all know that 3d printing is not that simple and changes would be needed to adjust the STL, IGS, 3ds, dwg, dxf to your printer etc..

 

Only thing with Shapeways is I think they use dreaed Paypal? , which I hate for number of reasons lol

 

Rabs I have sent you a PM 

[Marbelup]

I.Materialise have a similar service to Shapeways, i.e. allowing people to purchase your items and you get paid a "designers fee". They also use PayPal, but PayPal is not so bad if people are will to pay you money.

[Edwardian]

Well, first let me say that I admire both your abilities and your willingness to share.

 

As someone who has no 3D printer and who is unlikely to work out how to access one, I would suggest the two best options would be (i) print 'em yourself and charge accordingly, (ii) Shapeways.

[Rabs]

One problem with the Shapeways route is that you are effectively selling finished prints (even if you are not making them yourself).  Therefore you would need to release a different version for each scale, and people might expect there to be a reasonably thought out route to make or buy the other bits needed to make a complete model, because people won't be able to modify your design.  To do that for a range of scales is a pretty significant undertaking.  If you can find a way to sell the 3d file, rather than finished prints that means you don't have to take on that extra headache.

Pros and cons with both approaches I suppose, and there's nothing to stop you trying both.

[jonhall]

If people had the skill to edit a 3d CAD file they would problably have done it themselves - so you really need to be selling a print ready (and proved?) file - hence the appeal of shapeways.

 

jON

[Rabs]

If people had the skill to edit a 3d CAD file they would problably have done it themselves - so you really need to be selling a print ready (and proved?) file - hence the appeal of shapeways.

 

jON

 

I'm afraid that I disagree.  It's not only a question of ability, it's also time.  There is an order of magnitude difference in the level of effort required to modify an existing, dimensionally accurate model to suit a particular chassis/motor/whatever than it is to draw the entire thing from scratch.  Making a detailed 3d model takes many hours.  I'm sure that quite a few people, of which I am one, wouldn't hesitate to buy a nearly complete design if it saved lots of time, even though I'm perfectly capable of doing it from scratch.

 

However, I agree with you that any 3d file is of no value to people with no 3D design skills and no desire to learn them (this is absolutely not a criticism of those people - we all have our different interests).  I suppose cornishmad will need to decide if he feels that catering to that market is worth investing all of the extra time to design and prove his models, and that's something only he can answer.

[cornishmad]

I suppose what may be possible is making a website where you our able to select scale etc hollowness and then the file is downloaded after a purchase then the customer would be able to upload to sites like 3d hub, shape ways, etc. Only thing would be time it would take to personalise files. 

 

Think it may just be easier to print and then sell, time to buy a makerbot Z18 it is then at least I can be 100% happy that it is ok and copy rite would not be an issue. Also maybe share selected designs to members where you pay a subscription to enable downloads. As I have always found once you become a member of something ( a community) your more trusting? 

 

Maybe lack of sleep is making me a little delirious LOL    

[cornishmad]

My GWR 1138 which I will print today to show you

[cornishmad]

Just thought I would let you guys know if anyone was interested, I am selling one of my 3D Scanners to help towards the cost of a new printer link is here

[rue_d_etropal]

interesting discussion. Taking some of the points.

Paypal is not as bad as some make out. Also Shapeways have some sort of a deal so apart from the very small handling fee Shapeways take, there are no further deduction made by Paypal.

Shapeways do have some options for customisation. I have not tried it, as I suspect it would mean more work to do on my designs.Where customisation would be an option, I have built it into m design, so if someone asks I can easily do it.  Shapeways also offer a scaling option, but probably not useful, as most models are close to minimum thicknesses anyway.

I have no problem resizing my designs. The CAD program I use has that as an option, and I go through design step by step to check for thin walls, or over thick ones wasting plastic. I currently have 14 scales for some of my models, and have added a 15th as someone asked. Small changes in scale, especially getting bigger, are easy. All I do is add a resize command to my design. More like programming, than designing objects, but that is the software I use.

Downloading designs, not something I would want to offer. Not sure how some designs end up moving from one CAD program to another.

 

The way things are going, you will probably be able to get most locos in common scales, so unless it is not available in scale you want, then it can be bought, so no point in doing another design. For anyone contemplating designing anything, then get software which makes resizing easy. You will always be asked if ou can produce a model in a different scale, so plan for it.

 

It might seem obvious, does to me given my IT background, but worth while coming up with a workable naming standard for your files on computer. Makes it a lot easier to maintain, and might actually tell others what scale or gauge a model is.

 

3D scanning, just had a look at the link. This is probably where the biggest advances will be. Like with 2D scanning, 2D printing takes longer than the scan, unless you have a fast expensive printer, am I right in thinking 3d scanning is pretty quick. The big problem will be copying of items which are in theory protected by copyright. What ever the legislators do or say, it won't be possible to stop. One reason I like the rough WSF plastic is that I suspect it would be far more difficult to accurately scan. A bit like photocopying a faxed drawing, expecting it to be dead scale.

[Arun Sharma]

 

 

3D scanning, just had a look at the link. This is probably where the biggest advances will be. Like with 2D scanning, 2D printing takes longer than the scan, unless you have a fast expensive printer, am I right in thinking 3d scanning is pretty quick. The big problem will be copying of items which are in theory protected by copyright. What ever the legislators do or say, it won't be possible to stop. One reason I like the rough WSF plastic is that I suspect it would be far more difficult to accurately scan. A bit like photocopying a faxed drawing, expecting it to be dead scale.

3D scanning can be quick - if scanning people. If scanning something the size and texture of a matchbox, then assuming that you haven't had to spend an hour setting up and calibrating the scanner, you would probably need a minimum of 3 sets of 360degree revolutions in x, y, z planes on a rotary table - say 15 to 20 minutes. The scanner will pause every 20 -30 degrees of revolution and so the total number of scans that the software will have to correlate and combine to produce a 3D modelwould be 360/12 x 3 = 72. More complex figures such as a lead soldier figure with lots of shadow and undercuts would need many more artificial axes creating [masses of Blu-Tac in practice as complex structures are rarely self-supporting in all axes]. 

That's the easy bit. Assuming that you want to do something more than simple scaling of a workpiece, [such as converting a 1923 tube stock car into a 1925 variant or a class 60 into a class 92 or actually generating cross-sections that can be measured down to fractions of a mm accurately] then you might start needing to think about reverse engineering software such as "Design X" which starts at around £18-20k + £2k subscription per year.

 

Contrary to popular belief and desire, there are very few bits of software in existence that can reverse engineer *.stl files generated by a scanner or a 3D CAD package - and there are no cheap ones.  By reverse engineer, what I mean is turning an stl file back into a CAD file [such as the native output from Solidworks, Inventor, Catia, Prosolid etc - editing it in one of these packages and then re-exporting as a new stl file to a printer. Thus think very carefully before buying a 3D scanner in terms of what it is you expect to be able to do with the resultant *.stl file.

[raymw]

For some items, in particular if accuracy is required, then a touch probe is probably suitable. It is a lengthy process, but can produce an accurate point cloud, which can possibly be edited easier than an stl file. The object being probed, has to be relatively solid.  Renishaw  http://www.renishaw.com/en/heritage--32458 patented the probe, but the patent has now expired, and many cheap mechanical probes are now available. It would be trivial to run such a probe from an extrusion type diy 3d printer.

[cornishmad]

I think I have decided to take the approach and start my own kickstarter project. To enable me to print all my own files whilst sharing some. Shapeways way over charge for what cost me a fraction of the price to print will make it more affordable then ever.

 

My 3d scanner I have on ebay is the one that I have used on a few chassis as it is easier then plugging all the dimensions in solidworks.

 

I would run the prints in batches where u would pick a time and date to print the model and make payment after your item had printed also with live cam link so u can watch. All models would be standard Hornby chassis fitting for 00. Gauge but changes could be made for other sized chassis at like a cost of 50p for a quick alteration. All scales will be available from the smallest right up to the biggest.

 

You would be looking at say a class 58 shell in 00 gauge for just less of a tenner!

 

I have started my designs as a hobby and now maybe is the time to turn to a profession. I feel it is possible.

 

Any thoughts would be good??

[BG John]

I've been put off by the price of 3D printing from people like Shapeways, especially for what appears to be a very rough finish that needs a lot of work. I also love a bargain, as I'm a real cheapskate, and a tenner for a body looks great.

 

But if you want to earn some money from this, you need to shift a lot of products to cover the cost of your time, maintenance and depreciation on your equipment etc, so it's probably wise to consider this in your pricing. There's also another issue that affects lots of craft businesses where the owner is doing it full time and trying to make a living from it. If they try to charge prices that they can live on and have a sustainable business, they are often undercut by people doing it for a hobby, who charge for little more than materials. That is then seen as the going rate for the product, and anyone trying to make a living is seen as charging rip-off prices. Ultimately the industry dies because the people doing it for a hobby drive the serious people out of business, but have no interest in supplying the volume of products customers want. So back to Shapeways and high prices. If you're looking at it as a business, do you numbers carefully, and if you're not, consider the affect you may have on people who are.

 

Having said that though, if you've got any early 1900s GWR, or broad gauge, stuff in 4mm, or 7mm light railway, industrial or narrow gauge, let me grab some at your low prices first .

[raymw]

The illustration of your gwr 1138, for example. Is it meant to be identical to the adjacent photo of 1338? Will folk want it with moulded in handrails (design clever?), for example? How long will it take to print? How long to clean up the result (remove support structure, wash if resin print/whatever). 

 

I'm not sure how much you'd have to pay for a printer to give a decent result, capable of giving a good surface finish, rivet detail, etc. but I guess it would be in the region of £50k, or more for something large enough for 7mm scale. Plastic filament would not be any use, and powder or resin is more expensive than filament, too.  What exactly would the kickstarter funding be for? Kickstarter is awash with 3d printing fails.

 

Not being negative, but I think you have underestimated the difference between what you are doing as an interesting hobby compared to making a decent income from it, and in all honesty, model railway's is about the worse business to enter into, imnsho - too many fussy customers and few of them with much money (those with the money will want quality, and a loco body for a tenner does not fit into that).

 

Best wishes,

 

Ray

[cornishmad]

Wow thanks guys for a lot of thought, I am loving this forum, black and white all the way .

 

For printers to print such high detail and build size our around including binding method relatively low price if you know people so to speak.

 

Print times say with my makerbot is around 4hrs for an 00 gauge loco but the finish is not perfect so to speak in that regards. Regarding overall finish this is where the price would be affordable as it would be down too the buyer to prim, paint sand Tec.

 

Regarding make this a job so to speak, my personal situation is what I call fortunate but my friends would call a heartbreaker. I don't want to go in to much detail but a quick download is that I suffer from epilepsy which after a bad fit caused the nerves in my kidneys to be damaged leading to renal failure so a lot of support is offered to me to get back on track so to speak. Sorry I just don't want to sound like low life and a bum.

 

Anyways I am sure that kits in 7mm scale would also be possible thanks to the cleaved software I own already.

 

Thanks guys,

[cornishmad]

Here is a link to my kickstarter project, on their I have put a small list of my locos which may interest some, please note this list is a grain of sand compared to what I have got. Any thoughts and feedback would be great before it goes live. Cheers  

[raymw]

 

Here is a link to my kickstarter project,

The first thing that strikes me, is you need to get your text proof read and corrected. The second thing, there are no illustrations of any actual printed models of the quality you may be supplying. The third thing, the rendered files show flats on the curved areas. As this is supposedly a valid business venture/proposal, I do not think your personal health situation should be mentioned, I think it adds confusion and doubt to the reason for the project in the minds of any potential investors. There is a conflict between, the cost of the models and the fact that you need the funding to buy the machine. The same price for any scale may be OK for a drawing file, but for the actual item, material costs/time to print, will cause a major cost difference between various scales. If you were on 'Dragon's Den', I'd not be investing.

[rue_d_etropal]

I have seen similar ideas put through crowdfunding I think. Wasn't there something last year to produce models of narrow gauge locos, but it all went quiet.

I would recommend getting some models printed by some company like Shapeways. The big advantage is that you can sit back and let them do the work. This is part of my own business plan, as I don't want to be working a machine into my retirement. This is even more important if you have any health problems. I have seen too many small one man outfits running OK for a few years but then something goes wrong. Another advantage in my plan, is that I have a worldwide customer base, and I don't have to worry about postage, and customs.

If you want to take the Kickstarter route, then consider getting others , possibly a club involved. Setting up as a co-operative is a safer business route, and the Co-op movement will help you. with proper (and FREE) business advice.  I have been involved in one such set up, and the most difficult part was persuading people to join(and invest). Kickstarter is a good way to raise that money for a cooperative. Risks for investors  are less, so more likely to get the funds for a printer. Would probably have to consider taking on other print work, but then that is another good selling point.

[Rods_of_Revolution]

The images of the 3D models don't seem to show models ready for 3D printing. They look like they are 3D scans which haven't been cleaned up very well. There are many artifacts on the models which should be removed/corrected and the poly count of the models needs to increase drastically as the flat sides to the boilers/domes/funnels will print as flat sides.

 

I've done a render of one of my models as an example:

 

 

The mesh is 88,000 polygons, so you'll probably have to make the image full size to see any individual polygons. The model is also broken down into pieces, enabling printing in the optimum orientation for each part and allowing different options for funnel/dome types.

 

In all honesty, until the meshes are cleaned up and the poly count increased, a new and expensive 3D Printer will do little to improve the quality of the print. My advice would be to focus on bettering your CAD skills, especially before investing other people's money in expensive equipment.

 

I have worked both employed and self-employed as a CAD Technician and I have almost a decade of experience in modelling for 3D Printing, as well as modelling for Finite Element Analysis and for computer games/simulation software.

 

All the best,

 

Jack

[Revolution Mike]

I think I have decided to take the approach and start my own kickstarter project. To enable me to print all my own files whilst sharing some. Shapeways way over charge for what cost me a fraction of the price to print will make it more affordable then ever.

 

Any thoughts would be good??

 

Well you did ask for thoughts! I would want to know what printer you are purchasing and how you plan to succeed where others have struggled. Comparing the hundreds of thousands of pounds that Shapeways have invested in printers and infrastructure with a one man band is barmy! How will you afford to make it pay? What sort of quality will you be able to produce - Shapeways are not perfect but I haven't seen anyone able to compete on price/time/quality for reasonable levels of production. What size of print bed will you have?

 

I've been put off by the price of 3D printing from people like Shapeways, especially for what appears to be a very rough finish that needs a lot of work.

 

Well you do get what you pay for in 3D printing! If you want better than Shapeways you either spend a lot more going to someone like Protolabs (I'm sure there are others) or you invest time and money on a decent home printer (eg B9creator/Formlabs or better) - the killers there being the time to get it running well and the relatively small print beds. FWIW I don't think Shapeways etc are that expensive for what you get - the finish on FUD/FXD is not perfect but short of mastering something and casting it (or injection moulding) it is pretty good.

 

Cheers, Mike