Castle Aching

[The Stationmaster]

It would be interesting to know what gunpowder van traffic was in normal conditions, as even quite big railways seem only to have had a handful. Was it mainly for blasting in quarries for example?

 

But then when WW1 came along some railways (but not others) developed 'improvised gunpowder wagons'. Some of which - L&YR I'm looking at you - were not made of the normal steel, but were just ordinary wooden vans, possibly lined inside.

 

And then of course there were improvisations (again by some railways, not all) to carry stuff like picric acid. Which I gather can leave rather a hole in the carpet if anything goes wrong. I believe it was behind the devastating explosion at Low Moor, 1916, the full facts of which are still, as far as I know, kept secret. 

 

In my experience (clearly [?] much later than the Edwardian era) GP vans were used for commercial explosives and not for military bangers of any sort.  Quite why it turned out like that I don't know but perhaps the military stuff was considered 'safer' because most of it was contained in some sort of cladding as well as being within the overall package.  The commercial stuff was simply in boxes and was reputedly more attractive to the less than legally inclined folk of this world than the stuff consigned to the militia.

 

At one time in the second half of the 1970s it was reputed that not a single commercial explosives magazine in the Mendips quarrying area was able to balance its physical stocks with what its register said there should be in stock.  (one explanation vouchsafed for this was 'cider' which allegedly interfered with accurate counting and recording). 

[phil_sutters]

In my experience (clearly [?] much later than the Edwardian era) GP vans were used for commercial explosives and not for military bangers of any sort.  Quite why it turned out like that I don't know but perhaps the military stuff was considered 'safer' because most of it was contained in some sort of cladding as well as being within the overall package.  The commercial stuff was simply in boxes and was reputedly more attractive to the less than legally inclined folk of this world than the stuff consigned to the militia.

 

At one time in the second half of the 1970s it was reputed that not a single commercial explosives magazine in the Mendips quarrying area was able to balance its physical stocks with what its register said there should be in stock.  (one explanation vouchsafed for this was 'cider' which allegedly interfered with accurate counting and recording). 

That makes me wonder if all those clever DCC sound modules for S&D & GW lines on Mendip have the sirens and blasting sounds twice a day. My best friend's dad was a Mendip quarryman, but I don't remember any exciting fireworks parties at their house.

[Nearholmer]

Gunpowder vans have been a very popular subject in tinplate for over a century, and there is a very colourful one around, with a great burst of (I think) Astra fireworks as a livery, but I can't find a picture. There are so many that it would be possible to start a collection on simply this theme.

 

I've got a boringly realistic dark grey one, with big Red Cross on the doors, but the BIng 1920s one below makes the point more clearly.

 

Didn't the GER paint theirs red below the waist, with grey above, and red ends? Maybe a bit of the castle ruins are in the way of some municipal progress at CA, necessitating a delivery?

Edited March 18, 2017 by Nearholmer

[phil_sutters]

Didn't the GER paint theirs red below the waist, with grey above, and red ends? Maybe a bit of the castle ruins are in the way of some municipal progress at CA, necessitating a delivery?

I seem to remember Hornby Dublo had a red & grey BR one, although I can't find one on line.

edit - I am fairly sure it was this model, but painted red over grey (or vice-versa?) http://www.vintagemodeltrains.com/contents/media/l_dubhorse11234.jpg

A birthday cake candle stuck in the wall of CA's newly acquired tower would be all that would be needed to turn that into a nasty sticky mess of a ruin!

Edited March 18, 2017 by phil_sutters

[Caley Jim]

It would be interesting to know what gunpowder van traffic was in normal conditions, as even quite big railways seem only to have had a handful. Was it mainly for blasting in quarries for example?

 

The CR and the G&SWR had considerable traffic in explosives from the Nobel factory at Ardeer.  The former company had both metal vans

of which 24 were built

 

And lead lined wooden ones.

 

As well as quarries much of the traffic went to collieries.

 

During WWI there was the huge munitions factory at HM Factory Gretna  http://www.devilsporridge.org.uk/ .

 

Jim

[Edwardian]

Didn't the GER paint theirs red below the waist, with grey above, and red ends? Maybe a bit of the castle ruins are in the way of some municipal progress at CA, necessitating a delivery?

 

Yes, apparently so, but only from 1909!

 

According to the summary produced by Ragstone Models for their 7mm kit, there were 10 of the wagons, built between 1898 and 1905 and "Initially these vans were painted red (top half) and light chocolate (bottom half) body, the

two colours separated by a fine black line and black below solebar level"

 

I note the note that "convey gunpowder and later cordite from the manufactures to end users such as the powder magazines at Tilbury and to Woolwich for the munitions factory".  I agree that 'finished' ammunition was unlikely to have been distributed in such vehicles

 

Link: http://www.ragstonemodels.co.uk/uploads/4/8/6/4/48647195/wk9_-_gunpowder_instructions.pdf

[Nearholmer]

Wow!

 

With liveries like that, I'm amazed that they haven't been reproduced in tinplate (so far as I know), but then, the early tinplate makers seem to have been barely aware of the existence of the GER, except for producing some very weird representations of the Decapod, because it was quite a sensation.

 

K

[Nearholmer]

I'd seen this before, but forgotten it until reminded today ......

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6MiAfoQAccw

 

Pre-WW1 Russian military field railway school, with oodles of little military incidentals, including cavalry soldiers showing off to ladies.

 

Watch it to the end to see their huge stash of track and locos!

 

For completeness, here are US https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aWla__n-_sA and German https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ddgr3BDeMB4 lines in operation at the front.

 

K

Edited March 18, 2017 by Nearholmer

[St Enodoc]

A need perhaps to check the Regulations regarding the conveyance of ammunition, militia and yeomanry for the use of.  Did it have to be conveyed in gunpowder vans or were ordinary vans acceptable?

 

My suspicion is that if it was anything like later years and the considerable quantities we received for the use of the School of Infantry (and their artillery playmates) at one of my former places of employment then ordinary vans would have been used.  Only problem was that because of worries about gentlemen from across a nearby sea we had been banned from holding such loaded wagons overnight so therefore considerable tact was need in persuading those from over the hill to come and unload it of an afternoon, especially a  Friday afternoon.  However we had a yard supervisor who originally hailed from across that same stretch of water and who could easily revert to a very noticeable accent - it was remarkable how quickly a working party and the various trucks arrived if he happened to ring them.

 

Another advantage of having them close at hand back in the 1970s was that we could get attention to any suspicious packages very quickly as one of those units was also based there - we got to know them quite well but fortunately we never had a real one.

A standard 12 ton van derailed in Millerhill Yard in about 1982. The label said that the van was carrying military explosives, so we all beat a hasty retreat and called the bomb disposal squad from Dreghorn Barracks. After they had had a good look round, they said everything was OK and invited us to have a look. The van was completely empty, except for a single box of rifle ammunition in one corner.

[Compound2632]

I'd seen this before, but forgotten it until reminded today ......

 

 

Pre-WW1 Russian military field railway school, with oodles of little military incidentals, including cavalry soldiers showing off to ladies.

 

I've linked to this post from the 'Unusual PW configurations' thread - that mixed-gauge flat crossing deserves a wider audience!

[Nearholmer]

Wandering even further OT, there were several mixed gauge crossings within these isles, and, within industrial premises, there were even some that were basic "lift a bit of track out" jobs. I think the only mixed gauge crossing on the national network now is at Porthmadog, where the Welsh Highland crosses the Cambrian, but that is all very pukka.

 

Below, with mechanically worked 'flying crossing', and stub points (double-flanged wagons!) is Port Penrhyn.

 

If you like this sort of stuff, Penrhyn Castle Museum, and the NG Museum at Tywyn, have good displays of long-outdated forms of track.

 

THe loco 'Fire Queen' is preserved at Penrhyn, and should be of interest to the WNR. It's one of the best things that the NT owns, worth easily 500 Adam fireplaces or butlers' pantries, IMHO.

 

K

Edited March 18, 2017 by Nearholmer

[phil_sutters]

Of course there is the infamous Eclipse Peat Company 2ft gauge crossing on the level near Ashcott on the SDJR - the scene of an accident in 1949. A passenger train was derailed after crashing into a stalled petrol loco. The train's loco 3F 0-6-0 3260 ended up in the rhine that ran beside the track. As the ground on the Somerset Levels was too soft to allow it to be craned out, it was cut up in situ. The details and photos are available at http://www.sdjr.net/sd_accidents.html - scroll down to the 1949 accident.

[Nearholmer]

Be interesting to see which one would win in a SG vs NG contest with this loco involved ........

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7dHnDIyrBE

[Donw]

In my experience (clearly [?] much later than the Edwardian era) GP vans were used for commercial explosives and not for military bangers of any sort.  Quite why it turned out like that I don't know but perhaps the military stuff was considered 'safer' because most of it was contained in some sort of cladding as well as being within the overall package.  The commercial stuff was simply in boxes and was reputedly more attractive to the less than legally inclined folk of this world than the stuff consigned to the militia.

 

At one time in the second half of the 1970s it was reputed that not a single commercial explosives magazine in the Mendips quarrying area was able to balance its physical stocks with what its register said there should be in stock.  (one explanation vouchsafed for this was 'cider' which allegedly interfered with accurate counting and recording). 

 

Maybe some got 'sidetracked' for stump removal reputedly a quick way to remove tree stumps.

Don

[7TunnelShunter]

A contemporary crossing on the level

 

 

The Queensland Rail mainline at this point is used by the Electric Tilt train - i.e. a pendaline style affair - running at close 100mph

 

I am sure someone could make this using modern servos!

 

 

In Norfolk it would of course be sugar beet not cane !

 

Best wishes

 

Chris

[uax6]

 

 

Jim

Jim, that Caley van looks very like the ration GWR/SR van, I presume it was a standard RCH design?

 

Andy G

[martinT]

Maybe some got 'sidetracked' for stump removal reputedly a quick way to remove tree stumps.

Don

Funnily enough that's exactly what my school CCF platoon did, under the watchful eye of a RE sargent, on a very wet field day circa 1964 - I can't remember the exact location but it was in the Mendips towards Radstock.  By far the most memorable moment of 9 compulsory terms in the CCF!

 

Martin

[The Stationmaster]

Maybe some got 'sidetracked' for stump removal reputedly a quick way to remove tree stumps.

Don

 

I understand from a relative (who will not be named) that it is an extremely effective way of removing recalcitrant tree stumps.

 

And having tried to get an apple tree stump (with a diameter of no more than 4 inches) out  using a 1.5 ton digger I can quite understand why more 'effectiive' means might be sought for larger tree stumps.

[The Stationmaster]

Funnily enough that's exactly what my school CCF platoon did, under the watchful eye of a RE sargent, on a very wet field day circa 1964 - I can't remember the exact location but it was in the Mendips towards Radstock.  By far the most memorable moment of 9 compulsory terms in the CCF!

 

Martin

Lucky lot - when we went to Bramley for a demo of various activities we were only allowed to watch the explosives demonstrations.  

 

Highlight of the day was rather different - it was a few weeks before Bisley and at that time they were still shooting .303 and the only Army stock was stored at Bramley, about 1 million rounds.  However when they got the first lot out of the sealed container some of the rounds were found to be corroded and the corrosion was traced to something in the dye which had been used for the bandoliers.  We were told it was the only .303 stock left so they had to set too and clean up what was usable and blow up the badly corroded stuff and in this hut there were a series of tables with three chaps sorting and grading the rounds before cleaning them or putting them in the 'to be destroyed' stack.  They must have been bored out of their minds.

[Donw]

I understand from a relative (who will not be named) that it is an extremely effective way of removing recalcitrant tree stumps.

 

And having tried to get an apple tree stump (with a diameter of no more than 4 inches) out  using a 1.5 ton digger I can quite understand why more 'effectiive' means might be sought for larger tree stumps.

 

Having had to dig out a stump of over 2ft diameter in the front border (the tree having been cut down first)  explosive would have been quicker but as it was only 7ft from the house it would have been a tad risky. Disposing of it is another problem. It is planned to add it to a log pile (for wildlife) at the top of the garden but it is too heavy to lift . I have managed to roll it part way up the steep track but it is currently parked to onward progress another day.

Don

[The Stationmaster]

Having had to dig out a stump of over 2ft diameter in the front border (the tree having been cut down first)  explosive would have been quicker but as it was only 7ft from the house it would have been a tad risky. Disposing of it is another problem. It is planned to add it to a log pile (for wildlife) at the top of the garden but it is too heavy to lift . I have managed to roll it part way up the steep track but it is currently parked to onward progress another day.

Don

 

We (daughter and I) took one out when widening the front gateway for the demolition men and builders - not too difficult to get out as it was a laburnum but the only way I could move it was using the 1.5 ton mini-digger.

[James Harrison]

All this talk of digging out tree stumps rather reminds me of the time my parents planted a Russian vine in the back garden.  Oh, it all went rather well for a few years- planted up by the house and trained along the boundary fence- it grew like a weed and within about six months the fence all the way down from the house to the bottom of the garden (I should judge about 30') was invisible behind spidery green tendrils. 

 

After five years the neighbour mentioned that it was breaking the fence down on his side....

 

It took a solid two months of weekends spent hacking at it it prune it back, and when we did that we found it had also grown the other way- down the 2'' gap between the fence and our house- and then of course even after cutting through the branches we couldn't pull it out the gap because of the little velcro-like hairs that the vine uses to secure itself to anything that can support it.  I think that was the point we decided to get rid of it entirely. 

 

To do that (and bare in mind this was a vine with a trunk, if you could call it that, of maybe 2'' diameter), we had to dig a 5' deep hole 4' across to get the root system out. 

 

Funnily enough we don't have trees or vines in our garden now. 

[TheQ]

I've several times towed stumps and trees down the garden with the landrover

[Edwardian]

I'd seen this before, but forgotten it until reminded today ......

 

 

Pre-WW1 Russian military field railway school, with oodles of little military incidentals, including cavalry soldiers showing off to ladies.

 

Watch it to the end to see their huge stash of track and locos!

 

For completeness, here are US

and German

lines in operation at the front.

 

K

 

What a wonderful film of the Russian railway school.  Poignant in some ways, given what happened only a few years hence.

 

 

Wandering even further OT, there were several mixed gauge crossings within these isles, and, within industrial premises, there were even some that were basic "lift a bit of track out" jobs. I think the only mixed gauge crossing on the national network now is at Porthmadog, where the Welsh Highland crosses the Cambrian, but that is all very pukka.

 

Below, with mechanically worked 'flying crossing', and stub points (double-flanged wagons!) is Port Penrhyn.

 

If you like this sort of stuff, Penrhyn Castle Museum, and the NG Museum at Tywyn, have good displays of long-outdated forms of track.

 

THe loco 'Fire Queen' is preserved at Penrhyn, and should be of interest to the WNR. It's one of the best things that the NT owns, worth easily 500 Adam fireplaces or butlers' pantries, IMHO.

 

K

 

A great location, albeit a familiar one.  That loco, on the other hand ....  Extraordinary, fortunately the WNR is safe, as I should never be able to build such a thing.

 

 

A contemporary crossing on the level

 

 

The Queensland Rail mainline at this point is used by the Electric Tilt train - i.e. a pendaline style affair - running at close 100mph

 

I am sure someone could make this using modern servos!

 

 

In Norfolk it would of course be sugar beet not cane !

 

Best wishes

 

Chris

 

No, not even beet, not as early as 1905, anyway!

 

So, snatched a blessed couple of hours at Ormesby Hall today.  Mr Jonathan Wealleans of this Parish playing host. Will report more fully with photographs soon.

 

Feeling a bit done in, but managed to complete the frame for the second of the two purely scenic boards.  We are getting dangerously close to a baseboard upon which track might feature!

 

Yours in haste

[Caley Jim]

Jim, that Caley van looks very like the ration GWR/SR van, I presume it was a standard RCH design?

 

Andy G

The model is, in fact, built from a 2mm Scale Association kit for a GWR iron mink with the end vents removed and the doors altered.  Other companies had very similar vehicles.  Mike Williams book on CR wagons describes them as 'very similar to the well know GWR iron mink'.  Re-reading the book, I now find that there were 49 of these Dia 78 vans.  25 were built by Hurst nelson in 1922.Jim