Castle Aching

[Poggy1165]

There's rather a nice (stone-built) drill hall tucked away in the back streets of Ramsbottom, within whistle-sound of the East Lancashire Railway.

 

Above the door is a motto in large letters. 'Defence Not Defiance'. Never really 'got' the meaning of that. There is a photo on the web.

Edited March 9, 2017 by Poggy1165

[Nearholmer]

Probably the local worthies trying to divert the energies of the locals away from trade unionism into drill.

 

K

[The Stationmaster]

Alas our local Drill Hall - which is off a much later build and no doubt took over from the one shown on the Geographia site is now cited for demolition and redevelopment as a housing site - alas.   Interstingly t has passed through a change of units over the years partly through amalgamations of course but its last change was from the Army to the Royal Marines although it is still used by the Army cadet unit.

It might be tempting to think that, but in the event of war I suspect that the conscript was just as committed to His Country as the highly trained volunteer was to ours. 

The inability to turn back the conscript rabble even when the numbers involved were matched would strongly support that patriotism overpowered any background as to how you ended up in your respective trench. 

 

Although talking to those of my relatives who served in the Great War a far bigger commitment than patriotism that seems to have developed for many was responsibility to their mates and not wishing to let them down - hence the attitude of one of my grandfathers to a man who was executed for cowardice in the face of the enemy  ('he deserved it, he was always letting down his mates').

 

However I certainly wouldn't deny there was partriotism among the early volunteers - one of my great uncles had emigrated to Canada before the war and his attestation papers for the Canadian Army bear a date within days of the outbreak of war and he returned eastwards with the first Canadian units to subsequently serve in France.  He is noted in Regimental records as a Corporal in 1914 and was subsequently a Coy Sgt Major, he was awarded a Military Medal in 1916 but I have been unable to establish which action it was. 

[Edwardian]

Alas our local Drill Hall - which is off a much later build and no doubt took over from the one shown on the Geographia site is now cited for demolition and redevelopment as a housing site - alas.   Interstingly t has passed through a change of units over the years partly through amalgamations of course but its last change was from the Army to the Royal Marines although it is still used by the Army cadet unit.

 

Although talking to those of my relatives who served in the Great War a far bigger commitment than patriotism that seems to have developed for many was responsibility to their mates and not wishing to let them down - hence the attitude of one of my grandfathers to a man who was executed for cowardice in the face of the enemy  ('he deserved it, he was always letting down his mates').

 

However I certainly wouldn't deny there was partriotism among the early volunteers - one of my great uncles had emigrated to Canada before the war and his attestation papers for the Canadian Army bear a date within days of the outbreak of war and he returned eastwards with the first Canadian units to subsequently serve in France.  He is noted in Regimental records as a Corporal in 1914 and was subsequently a Coy Sgt Major, he was awarded a Military Medal in 1916 but I have been unable to establish which action it was. 

 

My maternal Great Grandfather a case in point - emigrated to Australia 1912, returned to join the colours 1914, killed in action 1915. Somewhere we have a playbill for a Melbourne amateur concert, he sang tenor, if I recall.

[mullie]

Two drill halls very well known to me and fascinating in their ways and how they have found new uses.

 

Ongar, Essex.

 

Portland, Dorset ( The drill halls site is very out of date on this one).

[Andy Kirkham]

I have a copy of this book:

Diary of a Bristolian, 1893 by W.H. Bow by Paul Townsend, on Flickr

The author was an enthusiast for anything military, and what emerges from his writings, and what for me stands out from the book as the greatest single difference between Then and Now,  is how conspicuous the army seems to have been in Victorian Bristol. There was a barracks at Horfield (then on the edge of the urban area) and parades through the streets on the way to the railway station, and to drill or manoevres on the Downs were a regular sight.

 

Was there perhaps a policy of siting barracks in or near urban areas as a precaution against insurrection?

Edited March 10, 2017 by Andy Kirkham

[Edwardian]

Two drill halls very well known to me and fascinating in their ways and how they have found new uses.

 

Ongar, Essex.

 

Portland, Dorset ( The drill halls site is very out of date on this one).

 

Excellent, because they are each wonderful buildings in their own way, but utterly different, showing the variety that was achieved, not least because the building of volunteer Halls seems often to have been a matter for a wealthy sponsor or public subscription.

 

Portland's is particularly impressive, though, I realised that I had seen it somewhere before ...

[Edwardian]

I have a copy of this book:

Diary of a Bristolian, 1893 by W.H. Bow by Paul Townsend, on Flickr

The author was an enthusiast for anything military, and what emerges from his writings, and what for me stands out from the book as the greatest single difference between Then and Now,  is how conspicuous the army seems to have been in Victorian Bristol. There was a barracks at Horfield (then on the edge of the urban area) and parades through the streets on the way to the railway station, and to drill or manoevres on the Downs were a regular sight.

 

Was there perhaps a policy of siting barracks in or near urban areas as a precaution against insurrection?

 

Wonderful.

 

I think you have hit the nail on the head.

 

The Troubles in Northern Ireland meant that in my Yeomanry days we were always told to be discrete about our involvement and not to travel openly or by public transport in uniform. 

 

We went from a time in the 1940s when more people than ever before were seeing and wearing service uniforms to a point in the 1970s by which the armed forces had became all but invisible.  Since the Good Friday Agreement, my perception is that the forces are visible again, and better integrated into our national life as a result.

 

In Victorian and Edwardian days, I believe that the military would have been more visible to the civilian population than was the case when I was growing up, not least because of institutions such as the Yeomanry and the volunteer movement.  

 

I'd like to reflect that in CA, giving a nod to my own years of volunteer service in the process. The fact that it means an interesting train and some distinctive and meritorious architecture is, of course, also a large part of the attraction.  

 

Some barracks may nave been located in times past for reasons redundant in their later life.  Most regiments had strong county associations that aided recruitment, which would have dictated the spread of HQs and barracks for the regular army.

In the case of the Rifle Volunteers and Yeomanry, Drill Halls had to be spread wide to ensure they were sufficiently local.  A town might boast a Drill Hall for an infantry company, whilst Yeomanry sites would have been many and perhaps each relating to no more than a single Troop.

[Andy Kirkham]

Wonderful.

 

I think you have hit the nail on the head.

 

The Troubles in Northern Ireland meant that in my Yeomanry days we were always told to be discrete about our involvement and not to travel openly or by public transport in uniform. 

 

We went from a time in the 1940s when more people than ever before were seeing and wearing service uniforms to a point in the 1970s by which the armed forces had became all but invisible.  Since the Good Friday Agreement, my perception is that the forces are visible again, and better integrated into our national life as a result.

 

Yes, nowaday it's not uncommon to see uniformed officers boarding a train at Filton Abbey Wood.

[nick_bastable]

to bring this back to railways

 

 

Nick

[Nearholmer]

This is quite an interesting insight into contemporary thinking about the volunteer movement, and it mentions both mottoes: "Defence, not Defiance"; and, ""For Hearth and Home".

 

http://pursglovearchive.co.uk/useruploads/files/guisborian_magazine/1900_december_guisborian_part_four.pdf

 

K

[DonB]

 

However I certainly wouldn't deny there was partriotism among the early volunteers - one of my great uncles had emigrated to Canada before the war and his attestation papers for the Canadian Army bear a date within days of the outbreak of war and he returned eastwards with the first Canadian units to subsequently serve in France.  He is noted in Regimental records as a Corporal in 1914 and was subsequently a Coy Sgt Major, he was awarded a Military Medal in 1916 but I have been unable to establish which action it was. 

 

My cousin , (our family archivist) came up with this photo of a listing of WW1 medals awarded including an uncle (H.Pitcock DSM) who survived and married my father's oldest sister . I'll ask about the source of it when she gets back in about six weeks from a reunion in New Zealand !

[TheQ]

Remember when these drill halls were built, they often were built on spare land on what was then the edge of town. Only later when the town expanded do they appear to be "in town".

 

When I started in the RAF we were banned from wearing uniforms away from camp, except that training camps tended to ignore the regulation. So I arrived at Edinburgh Waverley in full uniform from basic training. Expecting to be met by my Dad, but he was with the General in charge of security for the whole of Scotland. So after a rapid salute, I was questioned and the base received a  phone call shortly after!!!!

 

Similarly other things that changed, when I was first in the RAF if you didn't regularly attend the bar and functions you got marked down as being, not suitably sociable. By the time I left the RAF visiting the pub when you left work (in Uniform) was discouraged,  as giving the wrong image of the RAF and you were likely to be marked down as a drunk....

[Poggy1165]

I think some barracks (as opposed to drill halls) were placed in urban locations as a precaution against unrest. It must be remembered that after 1815, up until mid to late Victorian times, there was a great deal of social unrest, that could conceivably have tipped over into revolution. The Chartist Movement of the 1840s is but an example. The Army (and the Yeomanry) were for many years the only defence against this, as there was not even a paid police force until the 1830s at best - later in some counties.

 

The Yeomanry in particular were unsuited to this work, as ably demonstrated at Peterloo, 1819. 

Edited March 10, 2017 by Poggy1165

[Edwardian]

This is quite an interesting insight into contemporary thinking about the volunteer movement, and it mentions both mottoes: "Defence, not Defiance"; and, ""For Hearth and Home".

 

http://pursglovearchive.co.uk/useruploads/files/guisborian_magazine/1900_december_guisborian_part_four.pdf

 

K

 

That is well worth a read.  Thank you.

 

It seems that the message "Defence, not Defiance" was intended to convey, to "vaporising French Colonels" and others of their ilk, that we were not building up an offensive capability via the volunteer movement, but that hearth and home were defended against would-be aggressors.

 

 

I think some barracks (as opposed to drill halls) were placed in urban locations as a precaution against unrest. It must be remembered that after 1815, up until mid to late Victorian times, there was a great deal of social unrest, that could conceivably have tipped over into revolution. The Chartist Movement of the 1840s is but an example. The Army (and the Yeomanry) were for many years the only defence against this, as there was not even a paid police force until the 1830s at best - later in some counties.

 

The Yeomanry in particular were unsuited to this work, as ably demonstrated at Peterloo, 1819. 

 

The Cheshire Yeomanry were at St Peter's Fields, and to this day insist that they maintained perfect order, for which the authorities later commended them, and used only the flats of their swords to clear the rioters. It is the famous cartoon of fat Yeomanry troopers galloping and slashing at the crowd, however, that has been accepted as folkloric truth, and politically it ever suited reformist Manchester to prefer the latter version of events; fame is the spur.   

 

I suspect that he necessity of using the Yeomanry was that as a mounted force they had at lease some chance of arriving at the scene of the trouble in time. 

 

The problem was that the tools for crowd control in early modern Britain were crude, both legally and practically.  Once the Riot Act was read, it was deemed necessary to disperse the crowd, which could only be done with troops, and troops were equipped with weapons of war designed to kill or maim.  Mounted troops moving in, even at the walk, are an intimidating sight. Once the crowd panics, as the King's Cross tube fire horrifically demonstrated, it will produce plenty of its own casualties.  In other words, it is hard to see potentially good outcomes between protest gatherings and the authorities at that period. 

 

Lest we be complacent, in my lifetime there has been the baton charging of miners by mounted police - the footage still shocks - and the potentially inflammatory tactic of "kettling" protesters.  As someone accidentally, but briefly, 'kettled' during anti-globalisation protests in the City, I can attest to how intimidating that tactic can feel and understand its effect upon the mood of a crowd. 

 

Fortunately, I see little potential for either foreign invasion or civil unrest in CA in 1905.

Edited March 10, 2017 by Edwardian

[Stubby47]

Falmouth Drill Hall (screen shot from Google Maps) :

 

 

See also here : http://www.drillhalls.org/Counties/Cornwall/TownFalmouth.htm

 

and here : http://www.drillhalls.org/Counties/CountyPageNorfolk.htm

Edited March 10, 2017 by Stubby47

[Edwardian]

Falmouth Drill Hall (screen shot from Google Maps) :

 

falmouth_drill_hall.JPG

 

Very nice, and particularly ecclesiastical in style.

 

EDIT - nice to the side view with the row of offices, and the rear.  That building has to feature on a model railway at some point, surely?

 

The second link is to the large bonkers Drill Hall at Chapel Field Road, Norwich.

 

Another of the more ecclesiastical looking drill halls, to my mind, is Halifax, which got a whole basilica!

 

Edited March 10, 2017 by Edwardian

[Compound2632]

to bring this back to railways

 

 

Nick

 

Good try...

[Nearholmer]

Another, doubtless doomed, attempt to bring the two topics into unison: http://archive.org/stream/quarterlycivill00offigoog#page/n277/mode/1up (see p259).

 

K

Edited March 10, 2017 by Nearholmer

[Donw]

to bring this back to railways

 

 

Nick

 

Delightful. However I think there may be plenty more military stuff yet to come.

 

Don

[phil_sutters]

to bring this back to railways

 

 

Nick

I think that there was a drill hall in the very first few seconds of this clip. The grey building with the round red window. We know that at least one had a similar window, albeit in stone. Mind you the Maltese cross pattern in it may mean it was actually a chapel. I'll bet there are half a dozen RMwebbers who know its precise use and which episodes it appeared in.

Edited March 10, 2017 by phil_sutters

[runs as required]

I've had my head down in another project* over the past few days, but I've just come upon all this drill hall 'traffic'. Interesting that they seem mostly to be little battlemented toy forts of buildings.

IIRC in the Pennine mill village where I lived out my teenage years, the Drill Hall was a mildly gothicised corrugated tin hut, higher up the narrow valley hillside and maybe 25 years later than the Mechanics Institute (floridly 1860s French chateauesque) down on Market Street adjacent to the station.

 

Might I suggest that historically pehaps a convenient corner of the crumbling CA castle ruins could have been rather freely restored by the local aristocrat to serve as a Drill Hall sometime in the 1870s - in which case a small 'self important' batllemented structure (derived from Yarmouth) might be contemplated.

dh

 

*having just received a Silhouette Portrait cutter for my birthday

[Edwardian]

 

Might I suggest that historically pehaps a convenient corner of the crumbling CA castle ruins could have been rather freely restored by the local aristocrat to serve as a Drill Hall sometime in the 1870s - in which case a small 'self important' batllemented structure

 

 

 

That is the answer.  I now have a plan.

 

Unfortunately I am in bed with another stomach bug, so the weekend has slipped by with little progress, save that I have established the shape and size of the three remaining boards, so will soon be able to start on them.

[Nearholmer]

You seem to be having a bit of bad luck stomach-wise; hope it ceases soon.

 

In case you should want even worse luck, the picture below shows the strange brew that my sister in law tends to pour into anyone who shows signs of stomach trouble. It is called water kefir, and, to me anyway, it seems to be not far different from home-brewed ginger beer, with the ginger and lemons, and all the other good parts omitted ...... it is horrible!

 

Personally, I would recommend two pints of good, yeasty, homemade beer, to restore the inner man.

[corneliuslundie]

That's interesting. We regularly buy Kefir from Tesco. It is in the Polish section. A type of drinking yoghourt which is supposed to be very good for you - apparently different bugs from those in regular yoghourt. We got the habit of drinking yoghourt in Kosova but it is hard to find here. Regular Kefir is certainly not nasty. it might be worth a try for your ailment.

Jonathan