Castle Aching

[Malcolm 0-6-0]

3 hours ago, Lantavian said:

YOu have your own sources in government?

 

Wow :-)

 

Naah!!! I just read the latest press releases from the people attempting to manage this plague. 

[jcredfer]

Just now, Malcolm 0-6-0 said:

 

Naah!!! I just read the latest press releases from the people attempting to manage this plague. 

 

Looked more like Trump trumpetings....    

 

Julian

 

[jcredfer]

I have to get off this thread, it's doing me no good at all.

 

Julian

 

[Nearholmer]

Malcolm,

 

I’m not sure that we do disagree, at least not strongly.

 

I tend to see it in terms of two drivers in society: communitarian selfishness, and individual greed.

 

By communitarian selfishness I mean collective actions, pooling of resources etc, which individuals engage in for the most part not out of altruism, but because their own interests are served by them.

 

By individual greed I mean actions that an individual takes purely to further their personal interests, to secure more than an equal share of resources, with “no care” to the wider community impact.
 

When I was a young fellow I thought the communitarian bit was sufficient, and even believed that there was enough altruism around to compensate for the laziness of a few, all of which used to cause my father to launch into world-weary speeches about human nature that I could now make myself.

 

Now, I tend to believe that a spice of pure individual greed is needed in the mix to keep the energy levels up - a few chopped chillis in the sauce.

But, I remain convinced that individual greed needs to be kept under close scrutiny and check to prevent it making life a misery for most of the community.
 

Kevin

 

 

[Malcolm 0-6-0]

Meanwhile the beatings will continue until morale improves, and we'll throw in a little strength through joy as well as all becoming Stakhanovites. Oh yes we also have a little onwards and upwards to the bright sunlit uplands of what we started out thinking was a good idea, when we decided that to achieve freedom from want and discrimination was all there was to being happy. To which aim we formed a committee and that little quiet bloke Stalin put his hand up to take the minutes.

 

It may well be true that the final form of human experience is pear shaped whatever the philosophy that directs it.     

[Edwardian]

You can see how, given this rather depressing diagnosis, political ideologies are so potent.  People want to believe there actually is a solution, and that things could be significantly fairer, and, so, go to great lengths to deceive themselves that the Great Idea will work if only  ...... When in the grip of an ideology, people become strangely resistant to all evidence that tends to show it won't be any better (but could be a lot worse) than the last Great Idea, and all of the Great Ideas back to the day we stopped betting on your version of the One True God.  One might almost say that socialism (or pretty much any other ism you wish to insert here) is the opiate of the people.  

 

Oh no! I realise that I have just deluded myself by my blinkered and naive adherence to cynicism!  Just can't win today!  

[Regularity]

2 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

My dear old Dad used to say that the best form of government was a benevolent dictatorship, as long as you agreed with the fellow.

If you didn't, it wouldn't be benevolent...

 

I prefer a benign oligarchy myself.

 

2 hours ago, webbcompound said:

Politic hue is irrelevant in most of these cases. The only issue is the pathological greed and lack of empathy that characterises those who amass their heaps of wealth.

Well put, sir!

 

Ultimately, most of us do best out of enlightened long-term self-interest, which would include amongst other things not squandering the planet's finite resources and polluting the nest.

That said, we do need some who will step away from the norm and do amazing and fantastic things, sometimes out of greed. If that makes them wealthier than most, fair enough. The questions is how far do you go with this?

Ultimately, despite the wastage that seems to come with such institutions it seems that free at point-of-use healthcare, welfare and education are the sine qua non for most of us (and possibly, amongst us all, a decent railway system!) and we pay taxes for that purpose, with those who earn more paying a greater proportion of their earnings into the community fund. I mean, just how many billions does Mark Zuckerberg need? 

 

Our host is right: true socialism is the ideal system, but it isn't entirely possible - just as representative democracy is the worst form of government, apart from all the other systems we have tried... 

 

To quote the Conservative Party Election Manifesto from 2015, the first duty of a government is to protect the citizens.

Which is why the UK has fared proportionally worse than any other country in combating COVID-19: we had an election in 2017, and again in 2019, on different issues...

Edited July 1, 2020 by Regularity

[Regularity]

3 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

One might almost say that socialism (or pretty much any other ism you wish to insert here) is the opiate of the people. 

One exception, possibly: dogmatism. The enemy of open-minded progress.

[Edwardian]

25 minutes ago, Regularity said:

One exception, possibly: dogmatism. The enemy of open-minded progress.

 

Dogmatism exists because following any ideology is more comfortable if it lets you keep a pet.

[Regularity]

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

 

Dogmatism exists because following any ideology is more comfortable if it lets you keep a pet.

As opposed to religion, which relies on catechism.

[ian]

6 minutes ago, Regularity said:

As opposed to religion, which relies on catechism.

[Hroth]

Given all the above, this is my best stance...

 

 

 

[Regularity]

Problem there is that you won't see who it was kicking your backside!

[Edwardian]

6 minutes ago, Regularity said:

Problem there is that you won't see who it was kicking your backside!

 

Oh, but when you find out ...

 

[Schooner]

"There are, it has been said, two types of people in the world. There are those who, when presented with a glass that is exactly half full, say: this glass is half full. And then there are those who say: this glass is half empty.The world belongs, however, to those who can look at the glass and say: What's up with this glass? Excuse me? Excuse me? This is my glass? I don't think so. My glass was full! And it was a bigger glass! Who's been pinching my beer?And at the other end of the bar the world is full of the other type of person, who has a broken glass, or a glass that has been carelessly knocked over (usually by one of the people calling for a larger glass) or who had no glass at all, because he was at the back of the crowd and had failed to catch the barman's eye."

 

As so often, any sound social commentary beyond the scope of Mary Poppins can be found in Mr Pratchett's take on things.

[Edwardian]

It's been a trying day.

 

Tomorrow WILL be better.

 

Or I will have it taken out and shot!

[Donw]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

Malcolm,

 

I’m not sure that we do disagree, at least not strongly.

 

I tend to see it in terms of two drivers in society: communitarian selfishness, and individual greed.

 

By communitarian selfishness I mean collective actions, pooling of resources etc, which individuals engage in for the most part not out of altruism, but because their own interests are served by them.

 

By individual greed I mean actions that an individual takes purely to further their personal interests, to secure more than an equal share of resources, with “no care” to the wider community impact.
 

When I was a young fellow I thought the communitarian bit was sufficient, and even believed that there was enough altruism around to compensate for the laziness of a few, all of which used to cause my father to launch into world-weary speeches about human nature that I could now make myself.

 

Now, I tend to believe that a spice of pure individual greed is needed in the mix to keep the energy levels up - a few chopped chillis in the sauce.

But, I remain convinced that individual greed needs to be kept under close scrutiny and check to prevent it making life a misery for most of the community.
 

Kevin

 

 

 

The problem with the last sentence is the people in charge tend to be greedy ones often greed for power is their motivation. It is unlikely that the will keep thier own greed in check we hope they keep each others within limits but they often make our lives a misery one way or another.

 

Regarding your earlier comment my use of the term fair is from the definition of Equity  Fair and Impartial. We have to accept that we cannot all play football as well as Ronaldo but does that justify him getting higher  wages than a fourth division player who may train as hard and put in as much effort as Ronaldo although to less effect. Well I certainly dont believe top footballers deserve such high wages but I dont think it would work if all were paid equally.  Fairness is a judgement and all too often one persons opinion of what's fair is imposed on another.  Partiality is a fact of life you may prefer coffee to tea no problem there but we all like to choose our friends it would seem odd if we we were obliged to be equally friends with people we didn't like. On the other hand to be excluded from a group of friends can be very hurtful. It is also very difficult not to warm more to one job applicant than another but to automatically downrate all persons of a race or colour or any other distinguishing characteristic is unacceptable. So to mind mind is favouring an applicant on the grounds that we need to maintain a racial balance. 

I agree with Edwardian's view there will always be a pyramid with the few at the top living fat on the many below. No one wanta to be at the bottom but a lot are happy to be somewhere in the middle especially if they believe they are in the top 50% that is what allows the few to keep control.

 

Don

   

    

[Nearholmer]

8 minutes ago, Donw said:

The problem with the last sentence is the people in charge tend to be greedy ones often greed for power is their motivation. It is unlikely that the will keep thier own greed in check we hope they keep each others within limits

They won’t keep one another in check.

 

The classic answer is to keep ‘em in check by clubbing together. Which, of course, gets harder and harder, the bigger theIt span of control is allowed to become.

 

 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

10 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

Given that the economic reality of the world is that it is one giant pyramid scheme, it depends on a broad base of people with very little in order to support the diminishing numbers of people with increasing wealth. Twas ever thus. So, absent universal basic income, what you are actually arguing for is some 'caring capitalism' tweak of the American Dream with the potential to alter the composition, if not the shape, of the pyramid.

 

The most significant thing about the American Dream is the necessarily implied part in parenthesis that no one says out loud "If you work hard, there is no limit to what you can achieve (but this can only happen in a few cases at the cost of most of us staying where we are or doing worse)"

 

Equality of opportunity is merely fiddling to skew the odds to influence who ends up where in the pyramid.  Point is, it's still the same bloody pyramid. That is not to say there isn't a case for opening up opportunities to move within the structure, but it won't change the structure itself and, so, a bit more honesty about the exercise wouldn't go amiss.

 

True Socialism is the only answer, but that is a dangerous delusion, attempts to realise which inevitably end in a totalitarian nightmare replete with the same inequalities.  The only difference is you have lost the illusion of having some influence over the system but at least if you complain, you won't be ignored.  They'll listen to you, and then come for you in the night. 

 

So, life is inherently unfair and most often sh1t, and no amount of p1ssing into the wind (by means of didactic poster campaigns or otherwise) will make the slightest difference, save for releasing a few endorphins to reward all that virtue-signalling and wringing of hands.

 

Ain't I cheerful this morning?

Unfortunately in my country, the USA, Socialism is portrayed as communist and the work of the unholy. And as a very large amount of our country still hates anything communist, (whether or not it actually is means nothing to them) and anything unholy, I highly doubt that the solution will ever be implemented on the American populous, without a very large change of mindset. Our president has also called it a “Oppressive Regime”, on multiple occasions, further fueling hatred.

Edited July 1, 2020 by Florence Locomotive Works

[Hroth]

3 hours ago, Regularity said:

Problem there is that you won't see who it was kicking your backside!

 

He who kicks an ostrich's backside better be sure that

 

A: He can run faster than an annoyed ostrich

B: He can withstand an ostrich's kick, which has claws at the end...

 

No, I'm keeping my head down, away from this thoroughly depressing subject.

 

 

[Regularity]

As a light aside, back in the day when I worked in London and smoked, a group of us used to pop out to inhale the dirty London air, making it dirtier by passing it through burning tobacco leaves. As with any major city, the backgrounds were varied and made for a very motley crew. We had wonderful conversations, frequently offering different perspectives on our work problems which simply wouldn’t happen now with the reduction in smoking!

One of the group was called Mark, and was the son of a tribal leader in francophone Africa, via a “less important wife” as he put it. There had been an incident on the news about something harking back to the “colonial era” and he remarked as follows:

”I wish you Europeans had left us alone, you know. But failing that, I wish the English and not the French had colonised us. But better if you had left us alone.” 

There was a pause, and a Hungarian said, “Well, it least it wasn’t the Belgians!”
General hilarity ensued. Mark nearly choked.

 

Interestingly, Mark’s English was completely accentless: no class, no region, no nationality, just British English, despite learning it as a third language. He is also the only person I have worked with who ever picked up on the merest hint of my East Midlands origin in my speech.
 

In the past, a lot of sh1t was done. We are getting better at dealing with it, but some places are more advanced than others. I would be uneasy were I a black teenage boy in South London, but I am really glad not to be one in most of the USA right now.

We are all personally responsible for becoming more ethical than the society we grew up in.

Look towards making the future better, by avoiding the worst of the past.

[Compound2632]

12 minutes ago, Regularity said:

There was a pause, and a Hungarian said, “Well, it least it wasn’t the Belgians!”

 

I was expecting, "Well, at least it wasn't the Austrians!"

 

Nothing amusing about Belgian colonialism, as far as I'm aware.

Edited July 1, 2020 by Compound2632

[Adam88]

Not if you've ever read King Leopold's Ghost.

[Nearholmer]

I wonder if we might be wise to declare the next 24hrs as CA’s Annual Day of Quiet Reflection (only talk of trains permitted).

[Florence Locomotive Works]

7 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I wonder if we might be wise to declare the next 24hrs as CA’s Annual Day of Quiet Reflection (only talk of trains permitted).

I quite agree.