Castle Aching

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, uax6 said:

 

Mind you, why don't you actually just draw some of your own style?

 

Andy G 

 

Well, I haven't actually drawn them, but:

 

1882 Stock

 

A new generation of WN coaching stock was built at Aching Constable from 1882.  These saw further increases in height and length and the introduction of 6-wheel stock, though the WNR continued to build 4-wheel mainline stock until 1904.

New stock was needed for the WN’s expanding system, which saw lengthy extensions built during the 1880s, south to Bury St Edmunds and east even as far as Norwich. Furthermore, the ‘80s was the decade in which Birchoverham Next the Sea expanded considerably as a fashionable resort, even rivalling Cromer as the premier north coast resort. More and better coaches were needed.

 

In style these continued the rounded tops to vertical panels and quarter lights, but initially retained square door lights. The waists had recessed panels. The door vents were changed to a more conventional rounded-end pattern. Coaches to this design were built 1882-1887, and constitute the majority built. These may be conveniently labelled ‘Type A’ to distinguish them from further coaches built in 1888-1892 (‘Type B’) to the same basic design, but introducing large or triple radius tops to the door lights. 

 

They above is not set in stone in its details, but the idea is that these coaches mark a logical progression from the 1870s 4-wheelers currently under development, to the 1890s-1900s coaches, represented by the Hattons coaches.

 

I am tending now to a single dominant type, because it will be easier in terms of design and printing costs. I am also tending more to the idea of making the dominant type having large radius curves to the door lights as well as the quarter lights.  

 

I had considered in this style:

 

6W First

6W Second

6W Luggage First-Second Comp

6W Third

6W Brake Third

6W Luggage Brake

6W Third Picnic saloon

6W First Family Saloon

 

4W First

4W Second 

or

4W First-Second Comp

4W Third

4W Brake Third

4W Luggage Brake

4W Perishable Vans (with louvres)

 

As I say, the style was fairly common for the 1880s-early 1890s.

 

As a 6W, the style recalls Jones' HR coaches, as previously noted, though, of course, these are relative oddities by lacking turn-unders to the sides. 

 

 

Edited July 3, 2021 by Edwardian

[CKPR]

On 03/07/2021 at 11:34, uax6 said:

The triple layer panelling was really a Scottish thing, although a few English companies went in for it.

The Furness certainly had a few coaches with triple layer panelling albeit the majority of their 6 wheel stock was in the 'Wolverton' style and I have an inkling that some M&CR stock also had this type of panelling . My treasured (and unmade) 'Nor' Western' etched zinc set of M&CR coach sides has provision for superglueing plastic rod into etched grooves to simulate an additional level level of beading / panelling, which always struck me as a dreadfully heathen approach - the plastic rod and superglue, I hasten to add, not the three layer / levels.

 

On 03/07/2021 at 11:34, uax6 said:

As far as I know ex HR vehicles only got down to the Sunderland area

 They were certainly to be seen just over the border in Northumbria on the North Sunderland Rly . 

Edited July 4, 2021 by CKPR

[Donw]

One thing with through coaches and the brakes is the impact of the 1889 Railways Act which gave the board of trade powers to order railways to use automatic continuous brakes. Prior to this and for some time until it act been complied with the use of non automatic brakes was common.

With the non automatic brakes unless coupled to an engine providing either a vaccum or pressure the brakes on most caoches would be off. So in dealing with through coaches if left unattached only brake vehicles fitted with a hand operated brake would be secure.

Of course the records for which type of brake the WNR was using prior to the act are not available to me nor are details of when the act was fully complied with. However the subject of brakes on through composites may have been a consideration when ordering them.

 

 

Don

[Edwardian]

1 minute ago, Donw said:

One thing with through coaches and the brakes is the impact of the 1889 Railways Act which gave the board of trade powers to order railways to use automatic continuous brakes. Prior to this and for some time until it act been complied with the use of non automatic brakes was common.

With the non automatic brakes unless coupled to an engine providing either a vaccum or pressure the brakes on most caoches would be off. So in dealing with through coaches if left unattached only brake vehicles fitted with a hand operated brake would be secure.

Of course the records for which type of brake the WNR was using prior to the act are not available to me nor are details of when the act was fully complied with. However the subject of brakes on through composites may have been a consideration when ordering them.

 

 

Don

 

By the time of the layout (1905) all passenger vehicles have vacuum automatic brakes.

 

It is supposed that they were fitted and retro-fitted to older stock during the 1880s. The original 1850s stock was 30 odd years old at the time, and tended to be scrapped as not worth the expense of fitting vac brake gear.

 

This through up an interesting problem when it came to designing the 3D print of the 1871 MC&WCo Composite; the drawings showed the as built condition and representative vac gear had to be recreated for the model. 

[Compound2632]

On 02/07/2021 at 21:00, Northroader said:

I think Ahrons has the best perspective on the Highland Railway, saying the main line run Perth to Wick, is practically equal in length to LNWR Euston to Carlisle, both at around just over 300 miles. The main difference being for one of them it is nearly all single line,

 

Ahrons' comparison might be better if he had described both companies' systems as basically three long main lines, running south, north, and west from the principal node. 

 

A fruitful comparison might be with the Midland Great Western: total route 538 miles (HR 495 miles) of which double line 168 miles (78 miles), locomotives 139 (173), coaching stock 401 (799), goods stock 2,862 (2,718), service vehicles 275 (112); traffic originating on system: passengers first class 68,596 (37,275), third 1,101,813 (1,424.492), merchandise 320,366 tons (233,618), coal &c 29,467 (7,740), other minerals 5,467 (38,832), head of livestock 823,230 (647,371); train miles (loaded) 1,690,932 (3,483,598). Total capital expenditure £7,231,432 (£7,416,467), net income £245,105 (£260,330), dividend 3% (2%). [Data at or for the year to 31 December 1921, except capitalisation which is cumulative since 1845 (1856), from The Railway Year Book for 1922.]

 

Two railways of rather similar extent, serving a largely poor rural region, yielding a not so different return on roughly the same investment. The MGW figures are, I think, skewed by an intensive suburban service out from Dublin. Even so, the disproportion in first class passengers originating on the system is striking. The other really striking discrepancy is the train mileage. The Highland figures do not really take into account the August tourist traffic - which, whilst contributing considerable first class revenue from the mileage proportion of the fares paid by passengers starting their journeys well to the south of Stanley Junction, was also a charge to the company in terms of mileage rates paid on other companies' stock working through, along with the additional motive power. (Possibly an even greater burden in the winter months when through carriages to Inverness were being run by both the West and East Coast routes with very few passengers. I think at most periods the Midland through sleeper was discontinued in winter.)

 

Would the Highland have been better off without the Glorious Twelfth?

[Regularity]

13 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Would the Highland have been better off without the Glorious Twelfth?

Nothing to grouse about…

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, Regularity said:

Nothing to grouse about…

 

From an operational point of view, plenty to grouse about.

 

Some income from grice shipped south, I presume.

[webbcompound]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 was also a charge to the company in terms of mileage rates paid on other companies' stock working through,

Do I understand this correctly? The owner of the track had to pay mileage to foreign companies when their passenger stock travelled on their metals?

[Northroader]

Now this really is a result, Stephen comparing the MGWR to the Highland. Two qualifications, there was’nt really any suburban traffic west out of Dublin back then, it was along the coast either GNRI or DSER; and 1921 wasn’t really the best year to pick for any statistics from Ireland.

[Nearholmer]

For example: https://www.museum.ie/en-IE/Collections-Research/Collection/Raids-and-Reprisals-The-IRA-and-the-Crown-Forces/Artefact/Destroyed-train-wagons,-Kingsbridge-Station-(Heust/6f10d336-44e5-47ce-ba76-919548387fc8

[Donw]

That would make an unusual model.

 

Don

 

[Northroader]

It would fetch up a lot of painful memories, I fancy, Don, the level of destruction reached on the railways in the Civil War is hard to understand. The only model I’ve seen is an armoured train used by the Free State forces.

https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/7108-kmces-workbench/page/4/?tab=comments#comment-141663

[CKPR]

There was a discussion on the UK Prototype forum about the rather bleak topic of the burnt-out brake vans that were often to be seen in the 1970s . These were seemingly due to homeless people, the 'down and outs' as was, using them for shelter but overheating the stoves with sadly inevitable results. I know these have been modelled but one can have too much reality in our otherwise happy miniature worlds. 

Edited July 11, 2021 by CKPR

[Edwardian]

Life has been getting in the way.  Since 17 May I have been making frequent visits to my parents, who, I find have not fared well during lock-down and need support. There has been a lot to do, which is difficult to organise remotely, and some days I seems to have spent all day on the 'phone.  Hopefully, within a week or two, things might settle down. In the meantime I have got behind with my (finally picking up) work and my billing and have had to endure the annual purgatory of preparing my business accounts.

 

This has left things stuck at the point I left my four GER Diagram 16 5-planks on 16 May ...

 

 

Within the next fortnight, I hope some modelling time will start to become available. 

 

Assuming that the weather improves, however, the priority will be to get out and about to give the kids something of a summer holiday.

 

I'd like to walk some of the Wall and visit some of the sites along it.

 

This will be generally out-doors; I need to be physically active and I am also increasingly concerned that our populist government will make an irresponsible decision regarding face-masks. Only today I hear the egregious Daily Mail egging on relaxation by moronically condemning ''doomsters'', which, one must assume, includes the BMA and other representatives of The Science. Well, transmission rates are climbing at a very rapid rate and the point about masks is that wearing them protects other people, rather the wearer, from infection.  The BMA has been very clear on this. HMG are talking about making matters of social distancing and mask wearing as matters of individual responsibility. It seems to me, then, that I will, once again, be at the mercy of the unthinking half of the population who have all had enough of experts. 

 

How does this affect modelling? Well, it means that, aside from carefully considered, largely outdoor, excursions with the kids, I think post-19 July I will be less likely to go anywhere and mix with people than I was post jab while everyone had a mask.  

 

Now, I'm not such a fool that I do not know that more is going on here. I have rather introverted habits and, despite a couple of moments when the isolation got to me, on the whole I have rather enjoyed lock-down because it relieved me of any pressure I might feel to make the effort to get a social life. I realise that I could be using the face-mask/rise in transmission issue as something of a pretext to keep myself to myself. And there are other things that I am fleeing from.  Mothers will always be mothers and mine keeps nagging me to start dating.  Sadly, my mother is no longer up to the task of presenting me with a succession of plump and pleasing persons, so at least I get to dodge that one. 

 

What I'd like is to have some regular modelling time, and some time for writing, which I took up during lock-down. For that, I need to stay in!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 5, 2021 by Edwardian
spelling

[Compound2632]

On 03/07/2021 at 08:34, Edwardian said:

My view being that the Great Western didn't abolish Second until (IIRC) 1912, so I don't see that anyone else had any business doing so before then. 

 

There are those who would propose that the second half of that sentence would only be correct if the words "London & North" were substituted for "Great". Anyway between them those two conservative behemoths put the screws on the Cambrian, forcing it to reverse its abolition of second class - and thereby increasing its working expenses.

 

What the Midland really did in 1875 was abolish third class in all but name - driven by legal considerations. Third class carriages were brought up to second class standards and first class fares were reduced to the previous second class rate - from 3d to 2d per mile. Passenger revenues had already gone up when third class passengers had been admitted to all trains a couple of years earlier; now working expenses fell too. 

 

On 03/07/2021 at 08:34, Edwardian said:

*Pleasing trivia: Dugald Drummond had a daughter, Christine Sarah Louise. Samuel Waite Johnson had a son, James, sometime Locomotive Superintendent of the GNoSR. These Young People got together and inter alia produced one Dugald Samuel Waite Johnson.

 

I do wonder if there was a parental helping hand or two. Johnson and Drummond had been close since Johnson's brief period in charge at Cowlairs in E&G days - early 1860s - along with Stroudley and W.M. Smith.

 

17 hours ago, Northroader said:

Now this really is a result, Stephen comparing the MGWR to the Highland. Two qualifications, there was’nt really any suburban traffic west out of Dublin back then, it was along the coast either GNRI or DSER; 

 

I stand corrected.

 

17 hours ago, Northroader said:

1921 wasn’t really the best year to pick for any statistics from Ireland.

 

Nevertheless the MGW paid 3% - I think it was less affected by the Civil War than the GS&W and the D&SE; the latter had particularly rough treatment. My maternal grandfather emigrated from Arklow to Birmingham around about 1921/2.

 

That is the year for which I have a complete digital copy of The Railway Year Book, for other years I only have the Midland (of England) section (and there are two other entries between the English Midland and the Irish Midland). The parliamentary Railway Returns are available on Google Books for 1884-1890 but the information I gave is spread out over several different tables so it would take considerable labour to assemble an equivalent comparison.

 

18 hours ago, webbcompound said:

Do I understand this correctly? The owner of the track had to pay mileage to foreign companies when their passenger stock travelled on their metals?

 

That is my understanding - the company "hosting" the through carriage paid mileage in return for a mileage proportion of the receipts. If a passenger booked through from Euston to Aberystwyth, the RCH would calculate the proportion of the far to be paid to the Cambrian, irrespective of whether the passenger changed into a Cambrian carriage or travelled in a L&NW through carriage. The Cambrian would agree to a L&NW through carriage, paying hire on a mileage rate when the carriage was travelling over Cambrian metals (again with the RCH doing the sums), the advantage to the Cambrian being that this facility would encourage traffic. 

 

This is the primary reason why the Joint Stock arrangements were established for the West Coast, East Coast, and Midland route to Scotland. By having a joint stock of carriages, funded by mileage proportion by the participating companies, the Scottish companies did not get into the situation of having to pay large sums in carriage hire to their (more wealthy) English partners, particularly during the winter when receipts were lower.

 

The Highland was in an awkward position as all three routes to Inverness came together at Perth (East Coast and Midland already at Edinburgh of course); it had declined to join any of the Joint Stock arrangements. (It had briefly been a member of the East Coast Conference - of which the Caledonian was a sleeping partner, as owner of the line to Aberdeen.) 

 

The situation was different for running powers. When one company exercised running powers over another company's lines, it paid tolls. The notional drawback to the company being run over was loss of revenue from traffic that might otherwise have been conveyed by its own trains.

 

That is all the understanding I have put together from various bits of reading; I would be very happy to be corrected or to see any points clarified.

 

My message to the WNR Directors is, be cautious about those through carriages off The Leicester. Next you will be being offered loans to double your line (so kind, so generous) and then before you know where you are you'll be in Derby's pocket. If you you do find yourselves getting into trouble that way, invite that nice Mr Watkin to join your Board. 

 

 

[webbcompound]

8 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

That is my understanding - the company "hosting" the through carriage paid mileage in return for a mileage proportion of the receipts. If a passenger booked through from Euston to Aberystwyth, the RCH would calculate the proportion of the far to be paid to the Cambrian, irrespective of whether the passenger changed into a Cambrian carriage or travelled in a L&NW through carriage.

 

Almost sounds as if a company with a very short line, but lots of carriages, would do well, unless the big boys refused to accept their through carriages of course.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, webbcompound said:

unless the big boys refused to accept their through carriages of course.

 

Well yes, the though carriage was chiefly a device by which the big companies took advantage of the smaller companies to extend their reach. 

[Donw]

I assume that for say the Cambrian the share of the passenger fares would cover the payment for the coach and more.  There were also some services where Cambrain coaches worked through to Manchester so the mileage charges sort of evened out somewhat.

 

Don

[Compound2632]

36 minutes ago, Donw said:

I assume that for say the Cambrian the share of the passenger fares would cover the payment for the coach and more.  

 

That would be the Cambrian's hope.

 

36 minutes ago, Donw said:

There were also some services where Cambrian coaches worked through to Manchester so the mileage charges sort of evened out somewhat.

 

I think such mutual balancing arrangements were quite common. I've referred elsewhere to S&DJR stock being used on ordinary passenger trains between Bristol and Derby / Nottingham - in 1910 this kept six of the 46 ft bogie composites along with two 6-wheeled and two 4-wheeled vans permanently off S&DJR metals. I have assumed that this was to balance the through working of Midland carriages between Bath and Bournemouth but I've not tried to calculate the respective mileages!

 

I believe this is what we see in this photo taken at Cheltenham between 1905 and April 1907*, i.e. the leading two carriages, S&DJR stock, are not a through portion to the S&DJR (such were always composed of Midland stock) but are working locally to Bristol:

 

 

[Midland Railway Study Centre Item 65126, embedded link to catalogue thumbnail image.]

Edited July 6, 2021 by Compound2632
Correction to date of photo.

[Edwardian]

I have just accidentally* purchased 2 copies of an Illustrated History of the Port of King's Lynn and its Railways.  Anyone want one?

 

* It was a very dull meeting, but I over-estimated my ability to multitask. 

[Compound2632]

I see that the author subsequently wrote a book of virtually the same title but about Goole - are you sure you haven't ordered one of each? He flaunts his OBE on the cover of both; my gut feeling is that that's not quite the done thing; one's work should stand on its own merits. I know Byron published as Lord Byron, not George, but he really was a self-publicist trading on his notoriety.

[Edwardian]

6 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I see that the author subsequently wrote a book of virtually the same title but about Goole - are you sure you haven't ordered one of each? He flaunts his OBE on the cover of both; my gut feeling is that that's not quite the done thing; one's work should stand on its own merits. I know Byron published as Lord Byron, not George, but he really was a self-publicist trading on his notoriety.

 

No, both King's Lynn

 

Don't plan on modelling a version of Ghoul.

 

There are all sorts of rules about this sort of thing. For instance, no one should use their degree socially/outside the context of education if lower than a doctorate and only retired officers of field rank and above should use their ranks in retirement.  I don't know the rules about this sort of honour, but my instincts tell me that you are correct, that 'lesser' honours are like lesser degrees and ranks, they should not be flaunted. 

[Andy Hayter]

The Goole book is factual but his style is uninspiring.

Have tried to get his third - Hull but for some reason it is unavailable from Amazon for sale in France - and was pre-Brexit as well.

[Edwardian]

So, this shed.

 

I discover that I am to sheds what Jeremy Clarkson was to farming; ignorant and wildly over-optimistic.  

 

There is a company, named for a wading bird, that advertises its garden buildings in the railway modelling press. I reckoned these would be at the higher end of pricing, but, as they did an online pricing tool, I thought I'd get an indicative price.  Well, for something even approaching the size I can accommodate on the land, with insulation and electricity (but no heating and only one small window), I was clocking up £30K.  I'd thought a reasonable budget might be £5K. 

 

I'm thinking I might have to buy 4 bog-standard potting sheds and knock them through, and line with insulation!

 

[Compound2632]

Out of curiosity I googled around and suspect you can get something good enough for nearer your budget.