Castle Aching

[Edwardian]

16 minutes ago, Hroth said:

I just googled images of him - he reminds me of the sort of character played by Terry-Thomas in 1950s/60s comedies.

 

Wikipedia

 

Without the humour.

 

 

10 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I actually thought that was Terry Thomas.

 

or the wit, or the charm, or the looks

 

Those of a sensitive nature, please look away now

 

 

Yet the subject of cronyism, corruption and conflicts of interests among Ministers of State is really a topic for the Proceedings thread.  Good job we don't have any of that nowadays ....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 30, 2021 by Edwardian
spelling

[rocor]

10 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

 

or the wit, or the charm, or the looks

 

Those of a sensitive nature, please look away now

 

 

Yet the subject to cronyism, corruption and conflicts of interests among Ministers of State is really a topic for the Proceedings thread.  Good job we don't have any of that nowadays ....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On becoming Transport minister in 1959 he was required to sell his shares (80%) in the Marples-Ridgeway civil engineering company (Motorways Are Us?)  On the basis of a conflict of interest. The first attempt was blocked by the Attorney-General on the basis that he was using his former business partner, Reg Ridgway, as an agent to ensure that he could buy back the shares upon leaving office. So he sold the shares to his wife.

 

In light of this he could  certainly be judged as someone that liked skating on thin ice as during this time he was regularly using the services of prostitutes (according to a report by Lord Denning to the then Prime Minister Harold Macmillan, that was being compiled in light of the Profumo scandal).

 

This is just a small glimpse into the life of Alfred Ernest (Baron) Marples.

[TT-Pete]

2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

or the wit, or the charm, or the looks

 

Those of a sensitive nature, please look away now

 

 

Looks like Mr Mackay standing there in the background - ready to haul him off to HMP Slade perhaps?

[rocor]

 

You see that railway line over there, well, my man Beeching is going to put it in his report. After that, fineto.

[Hroth]

1 hour ago, TT-Pete said:

 

Looks like Mr Mackay standing there in the background - ready to haul him off to HMP Slade perhaps?

Sadly it took a while before he ran away to furrin parts to avoid the attentions of the constabulary, legal entanglments and a stretch in one of Her Majesties hotels.

 

Its nice to think of him slopping out at Walton Gaol or Strangeways...

 

 

 

[St Enodoc]

12 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

I actually thought that was Terry Thomas.

Which one?

[Nearholmer]

There’s more than one Terry Thomas? 
 

Ah, I see what you mean ……. Yes, the one I thought looked like TT was…. Er ….TT.

 

Was I too quick off the mark, or was a further photo added while I wasn’t looking? Yeees, there’s been editing done.

Edited July 1, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Hroth]

14 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Was I too quick off the mark, or was a further photo added while I wasn’t looking? Yeees, there’s been editing done.

 

Just to keep you on your toes... 

[ChrisN]

The Cambrian had tri-composites for through coaches that had both a Cupboard, (Luggage) and a toilet, if only a toilet for the First class passengers.  These were made when the Cambrian had abolished Second Class.

 

Being a small railway surrounded by the GWR and LNWR in the end they had to go back to Second Class as it annoyed their big neighbours that one of their passengers could start from their home station in Second and not finish it in Second on the Cambrian.

 

I have the GWR through coach information for 1905 and only one of the trains to the Cambrian is marked as having Cambrian coaches on Monday, Wednesday and Friday, leaving the others days to the GWR.  The other trains are purely GWR.  This may be because the coaches used were the first Cambrian bogie coaches and dated from 1895.  Maybe the GWR did not want non bogie coaches in their expresses, although this id not stop them using their own six wheelers.

 

The list also shows a preponderance of tri-composite brake coaches if they were single coaches, but if their was more than one coach one would be a brake.  I think the idea was that if they were uncoupled from a train then there was a hand brake to stop them rolling away.  (I have some info on LNWR in the Cambrian supplied by @uax6 which I can dig out if you are interested.)

[Edwardian]

On 29/06/2021 at 17:36, uax6 said:

Well I have been drawing, off and on, the side frets for quite a few of the flat sided Jones ones, and have a air few of the drummond ones drawn as well. I just need to get my mojo in gear and get them actually cut out and then start building them....

If there is any you fancy let me know...

 

Andy G

 

On 29/06/2021 at 19:02, Edwardian said:

 

Brilliant! 

 

Let me get a grip on the basics and I'll be in touch.

 

Thanks muchly.

 

I now have a book on Highland Railway rolling stock.

 

What a joy!

 

As Wiki puts it "The Highland Railway (HR) was one of the smaller British railways before the Railways Act 1921, operating north of Perth railway station in Scotland and serving the farthest north of Britain."

 

At 494 route miles, it was not that small. The Cambrian I read was 230 miles, whereas I do not think anyone has recorded the route mileage of the West Norfolk, but I would estimate it at about 180 miles.

 

In terms of coaches, the Highland was a many splendoured thing with many attractive, and often idiosyncratic, designs worthy of emulation.

 

Anyway, there was a phase of coach body style that typified the 1880s.  Gone was the raised right-angle waist beading of the 1860s-1870s, there were now recessed panels with radiussed ends to the waist to match the eaves panels. The signature feature, however, was the treatment of the lights and blind vertical panels; square bottom corners and large radius top corners. The Great Eastern types, built past the mid 1890s by which time the style was rather old-fashioned, we have looked at before. 'Type 5' according to the John Watling  classification.  The GER 6-wheelers to this style had turn-unders to the sides, a near universal feature by this date, but also turn-unders to the ends, which was relatively rare. The most notable user of end turn-unders was the GWR.

 

Anyway, the equivalent on the Highland, I read, were the 6-wheel coaches introduced in the late 1880s under the superintendency of David Jones (he of the eponymous Goods, of course).  These had the typical 1880s panel style, along with the more common flat ends, and when wearing the dark green and white livery sanctioned in 1896, obviously suggest coaches of the same, 1880s, era built by the West Norfolk.   The obvious difference was the fact that these Jones coaches were straight sided, with no turn-under, a very unusual distinction for the style and period.   

 

Here is a lovely model of what I take to be a Diagram 19 Third built 1888-1893.

 

 

I think these coaches could look good on the WN.

 

[Northroader]

I think Ahrons has the best perspective on the Highland Railway, saying the main line run Perth to Wick, is practically equal in length to LNWR Euston to Carlisle, both at around just over 300 miles. The main difference being for one of them it is nearly all single line, and heavily influenced by the August grouse shooting season. 

Edited July 2, 2021 by Northroader

[DonB]

As I have no reference material to consult on HR matters, may I ask if the lack of a Turn-under resulted in a narrower inside width compared with those with other's coaches with a Turn-under?

Would a narrow coach need the external foot steps as shown in Northroader's photo above? 

[Edwardian]

6 minutes ago, DonB said:

As I have no reference material to consult on HR matters, may I ask if the lack of a Turn-under resulted in a narrower inside width compared with those with other's coaches with a Turn-under?

 

 

Well I, too, was pondering this.

 

Didn't the lack of a turn-under mean that the coach body was narrower?

 

The drawings of such Jones era coaches all show 7'11''.

 

The standard width for a coach of the period with a turn-under was 8', e.g. GWR, LSWR, LB&SCR, NER, MR and LCDR, all examples of the standard I can recite off hand.

 

The Highland obviously didn't want to go to all the fuss of a turn-under for the sake of an extra inch at knee height.

 

 

 

 

[Annie]

Highland Railway coaches repurposed as West Norfolk Railway coaches on my somewhat alternative reality Norfolk layout.  I only have a full brake and a third class done at the moment.  I struck a problem with the composite coach so I'm going to need to frown at it some more.

 

[Annie]

And the now finished luggage composite.  There was something with the coach's texture mapping I couldn't figure out when I first attempted reskinning it so I got all sad and flat and gave up.  Now with a bit more experience under my belt I was able to complete it properly.  Something I couldn't remember though was whether the W.N.R. had a second class or not.

Edit:  I've just discovered that the W.N.R. does have second class so I might have to see if I can convert one of the thirds to being a second.

 

Edited July 3, 2021 by Annie
More information

[Edwardian]

Wonderful, Annie, and a salutary reminder of what I need to paint!

 

Red brake ends another unconscious borrowing from the HR (but I do love them)!

 

Now these look like coaches built under the superintendency of Jones's successor, Drummond. Knowing next to nothing, hitherto, about the Highland, but dimly recalling that Dugald* was once there under Stroudley, I discover that the Drummond in quo was Peter, Dugald's younger brother, whose superintendency at the Highland (1896-1911) broadly paralleled Dugald's tenure at the LSWR (1895-1912).  Peter went on to superintendency of the GSWR, dying six years after his elder brother in 1918.  

 

With Peter Drummond, we see the style predominating by the 1890s; vertical panels and lights now have small radius corners in all 4 corners. A change was made to more conventional practice by introducing a turn-under to the sides.  This resulted in a conventional 8' width, as opposed to the 7'11'' of the straight-sided Jones coaches. The most distinctive feature, captured beautifully by your model, Annie, is the prominent beading on the lower sides, surrounding each door and panel. The well-known match-boarding to the lower sides was introduced in 1906 as an economy.

 

I take these coaches to be a Diagram 38 Brake (built 1900-1903) and a Diagram 22 Third (built from 1897). They make very good WNR coaches, though in 4mm scale, their place will be taken by Hattons Genesis 6-wheelers.  Hattons have announced a lovely 6-wheel Brake and I have plans to cut and shut Hattons brake thirds to make a (somewhat longer) 6-compartment Third (the Drummund Dia.22 is 35' over the body, whereas the Hattons are all 32', one of the constraints of the Genesis range being the need to standardise coach lengths.  I'll see if I can't muck that up a bit. 

 

EDIT: Just seen that lovely Luggage Composite.  The WNR did, indeed, retain Second Class, mainly to annoy the MR (abolished IIRC 1875) and the GER (abolished IIRC 1892).  My view being that the Great Western didn't abolish Second until (IIRC) 1912, so I don't see that anyone else had any business doing so before then. 

 

*Pleasing trivia: Dugald Drummond had a daughter, Christine Sarah Louise. Samuel Waite Johnson had a son, James, sometime Locomotive Superintendent of the GNoSR. These Young People got together and inter alia produced one Dugald Samuel Waite Johnson.

 

 

 

Edited July 3, 2021 by Edwardian

[Northroader]

9 hours ago, DonB said:

As I have no reference material to consult on HR matters, may I ask if the lack of a Turn-under resulted in a narrower inside width compared with those with other's coaches with a Turn-under?

Would a narrow coach need the external foot steps as shown in Northroader's photo above? 

Don’t pay too much attention to that coach, it’s as spurious as an eight pound note, having escaped from my Whimsy line.

[Edwardian]

8 minutes ago, Northroader said:

Don’t pay too much attention to that coach, it’s as spurious as an eight pound note, having escaped from my Whimsy line.

 

Yes, but it has Essence of Jones!

[Annie]

Thanks, - yes the reworked Highland coaches are a D38 and a D22 James.  The now luggage tri-composite was a Midland D516 composite before I got at it.  I couldn't get the reskinned Midland composite to be a complete match for the Highland coaches, but I think I got it reasonably close.

 

Edited July 3, 2021 by Annie

[uax6]

I have the Drummond 6 wheel full brake all ready drawn, complete with the Scottish 3 layer panelling. In fact I believe I have all of Drummonds 6 wheelers ready to roll. The Jones ones are more work in progress...

 

Andy G

[Edwardian]

21 minutes ago, uax6 said:

I have the Drummond 6 wheel full brake all ready drawn, complete with the Scottish 3 layer panelling. In fact I believe I have all of Drummonds 6 wheelers ready to roll. The Jones ones are more work in progress...

 

Andy G

 

So I suppose, given your very kind offer, the question is whether the WNR should have the triple-layer panelling that results in framing the lower body divisions?

 

Of course, the alternative would be to build them as HR coaches along with the two Poppy's Woodtech Jones coaches I have on order.

 

Do I need to start models of yet another railway company?!?

 

An alternative is that I replace the ends on the Jones coaches - somewhat lessening the point of buying them - and introduce a turn-under?

 

As the 'castings' are HR patterns, it would seem a shame not to build them as intended. 

 

I was busy ordering the NER coaches for Yet Another Project and thought I'd also get the HR for assessment given the similarity of the sides to what I wanted for the WN 1880s coaches.

 

We'll have to see when they arrive. 

 

 

[Northroader]

[Annie]

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

........along with the two Poppy's Woodtech Jones coaches I have on order.

Those Poppy's Woodtech coaches look awfully nice.  Of course I had to go and have a look at the 7mm scale ones for old times sake.

[uax6]

The triple layer panelling was really a Scottish thing, although a few English companies went in for it. Theres no reason (other then I'd have to draw the main frets again) that you couldn't have them as two layer vehicles. Or with the matchboarding (which is already done). 

 

Mind you, why don't you actually just draw some of your own style? I quite like the Furness and LNWR style panelling (as used by one of your southern companies too), which would bring a distinction to your services. You could even go back and use the ex-LNWR carriages that the Bishops Castle ran....

 

As far as I know ex HR vehicles only got down to the Sunderland area, although the meat vans certainly got on to GER territory (these a photo of one somewhere near Yarmouth).

 

Andy G 

[Annie]

Just to round things off with the W.N.R. coaches to attach to trains on my Norfolk layout this is a still WIP and a bit rough around the edges reskin of a D58 matchboarded Highland luggage composite coach.  Doing this one was a bit more complicated and it still has a way to go yet.