Is 3D printing over hyped ?

[Knuckles]

Ok thanks for the info. With the Robox the fact thay it apparently is less tinkerable is what appeals to me as I'm scared of knackering it, amongst other things. Replacing parts and rebuilding them I wouldn't have a clue.

 

I also don't want an uber cheap printer though because ideally I'd want a good one from the off. Many people say "I'm on my 2nd or 3rd printer" which makes methink they brought a crap one to begin with. My wy of thinking I may is to save up for somtermh you think would be good longer term.

I may be wrong but that is what I am thinking. Many people make a big deal out of the 20 micron layering being a plus on these things and so again my way of thinking is 'why bother buying anything else' if they will not print as good without tinkering?

 

As I say I may be talking out of my gas pipe but these are my thoughts. Very much want a printer at some poiny.

 

One reason is for fun, second for quick prototype test builds instead of waiting weeks for Shapeways, another reason is so I can get a print for less money and the big hope is so I can print well enough to sell my own stuff on it. General concensus seems go be "If jf ain't SLA it ain't good enough to sell" but again I think that is bumcum.

 

As long as the print is good the print is good. WSF and FUD require cleaning and smoothing so what is the difference providing the quality is good go begin with?

 

If this was go work out then products could be sold a lot cheaper fhan Shapeways which in the long run could potengially mean more sales overall.

[Knuckles]

Appologies for all the above typo's. I cannot edit the post until on my computor bscause this 'phone I am using is awkward go type and almost impossible to edit with.

[Al51]

Does anyone else have their own printer? I'm on my second

 

I've got a Felix 3 that I bought as a kit on eBay. I'm still learning with it, I had problems getting the prints to stick to the Kapton, and now, having sorted that, getting the finished print to unstick! 

 

 

Ok thanks for the info. With the Robox the fact thay it apparently is Many people say "I'm on my 2nd or 3rd printer" which makes methink they brought a crap one to begin with. My wy of thinking I may is to save up for somtermh you think would be good longer term.

I may be wrong but that is what I am thinking. Many people make a big deal out of the 20 micron layering being a plus on these things and so again my way of thinking is 'why bother buying anything else' if they will not print as good without tinkering?

 

As I say I may be talking out of my gas pipe but these are my thoughts. Very much want a printer at some poiny.

 

One reason is for fun, second for quick prototype test builds instead of waiting weeks for Shapeways, another reason is so I can get a print for less money and the big hope is so I can print well enough to sell my own stuff on it. General concensus seems go be "If jf ain't SLA it ain't good enough to sell" but again I think that is bumcum.

 

As long as the print is good the print is good. WSF and FUD require cleaning and smoothing so what is the difference providing the quality is good go begin with?

 

If this was go work out then products could be sold a lot cheaper fhan Shapeways which in the long run could potengially mean more sales overall.

 

20 micron layering sounds good, but it will greatly increase the print time. An hour print at 100 micron layer setting could take five hours at 20 micron!

[eldavo]

Does anyone else have their own printer? I'm on my second

 

 

Yup, Prusa i3.  Very capable bit of kit and I have had it running at 50 micron layers though frankly as I'm using a 0.4mm extruder 100 micron layers are good enough for most things.  Currently upgrading the heated bed setup so I can reliably print in ABS.

 

Here's an O gauge Midland Railway open wagon built from a set of parts created with the Prusa. All but the wheels, couplings and bufferheads are 3D printed in PLA.

 

Cheers

Dave

[rue_d_etropal]

Eldavo said

 

Here's an O gauge Midland Railway open wagon built from a set of parts created with the Prusa. All but the wheels, couplings and bufferheads are 3D printed in PLA.

The stress should be on making a kit of parts. Producing a complete model in one piece, possible 2 or 3 to best material for different parts, that is the real challenge. That might be what some think is already possible  at home. Not so sure.

[Knuckles]

Very nice wagon indeed.

 

You say ypu are using a 0.4mm extruder with 100 micron layers. So if you fit a printer with finer 'nibs' does that increase chances of a finer print regardless of micron setting? I have a lot to learn before I buy one.

[AndyID]

Very nice wagon indeed.

 

You say ypu are using a 0.4mm extruder with 100 micron layers. So if you fit a printer with finer 'nibs' does that increase chances of a finer print regardless of micron setting? I have a lot to learn before I buy one.

 

The layer thickness cannot be greater than the extruder diameter, but there is almost no lower limit. The smaller it is, the more layers to print, and that increases the time for the print. The layers in a print don't all have to be the same thickness either.

 

Smaller diameter extruder nozzles let you print finer details and sharper corners but they also increase the time to print. The Robox supports dual extruders which is a good way of speeding up a print by using the wide nozzle for the basic structure and the small nozzle for the external surfaces.

[AndyID]

Yup, Prusa i3.  Very capable bit of kit and I have had it running at 50 micron layers though frankly as I'm using a 0.4mm extruder 100 micron layers are good enough for most things.  Currently upgrading the heated bed setup so I can reliably print in ABS.

 

Here's an O gauge Midland Railway open wagon built from a set of parts created with the Prusa. All but the wheels, couplings and bufferheads are 3D printed in PLA.

MR wagon finished.jpg

 

Cheers

Dave

 

Very nice indeed Dave.

 

I'm going to take a shot at something similar in 00, but I'm probably pushing my luck

 

I think a home printer is a great option for 0 gauge. The resolution is probably good enough for lots of things and the cost savings can be considerable.

 

Would you care to give us a clue about the cost of the PLA material that went into that wagon? I'm guessing it was less than 50p.

 

Andy

[Charlie586]

Yup, Prusa i3.  Very capable bit of kit and I have had it running at 50 micron layers though frankly as I'm using a 0.4mm extruder 100 micron layers are good enough for most things.  Currently upgrading the heated bed setup so I can reliably print in ABS.

 

Here's an O gauge Midland Railway open wagon built from a set of parts created with the Prusa. All but the wheels, couplings and bufferheads are 3D printed in PLA.

MR wagon finished.jpg

 

Cheers

Dave

 

That is a very impressive wagon. After messing around with cad and shapeways this last month I've been thinking of buying a 3d printer, not least because of the shapeways shipping charges, but the fact that I thought the quality was still not close enough to injection moulding to compete. I know for niche and unavailable elsewhere products it's a good start, or an aid to scratch build, but anything larger than 2mm scale seems too expensive to me in comparison. I speak mainly as someone who wants to build wagons/bodyshells for their own narrow gauge layout rather than looking to go into a cottage industry.

 

Can I ask if this Prusa i3 on ebay is what you have? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DIY-3D-Printer-full-complete-kit-for-Reprap-Prusa-i3-Factory-Direct-PLA-ABS-/221985486006?hash=item33af5db4b6:g:u4cAAOSwepJXXnPA   £147 (plus time spent building the thing) seems a lot cheaper than I thought you'd need to pay to get that kind of quality.

[raymw]

Hi Charlie586,

 

From the link you provided, the same guy is supplying a dual extruder printer, with good reviews, for about twice the price, and it's ready built. There are definite advantages to the dual extruder, one of the important issues being able to quickly do infills, and if needed, soluble support structures. However, for most buildings/wagons, I would print as relatively flat pieces, and glue together in a 'box' shape, if dealing with 7mm models. I personally prefer using PLA, not ABS, for various reasons, but if printing ABS you will be better off enclosing the build area. If you have no experience of 3d printing, I expect you may be surprised/disappointed in how long it takes to print anything of size.  Also, be prepared to have more failures than success until you get the hang of things. Patience is a virtue!

 

afaik, the shapeways stuff is not printed by filament printers, but I've never used them, so the surface finish you get will be different if using the home filament type machines.

 

Best wishes,

 

Ray

[Charlie586]

Hi Charlie586,

 

From the link you provided, the same guy is supplying a dual extruder printer, with good reviews, for about twice the price, and it's ready built. There are definite advantages to the dual extruder, one of the important issues being able to quickly do infills, and if needed, soluble support structures. However, for most buildings/wagons, I would print as relatively flat pieces, and glue together in a 'box' shape, if dealing with 7mm models. I personally prefer using PLA, not ABS, for various reasons, but if printing ABS you will be better off enclosing the build area. If you have no experience of 3d printing, I expect you may be surprised/disappointed in how long it takes to print anything of size.  Also, be prepared to have more failures than success until you get the hang of things. Patience is a virtue!

 

afaik, the shapeways stuff is not printed by filament printers, but I've never used them, so the surface finish you get will be different if using the home filament type machines.

 

Best wishes,

 

Ray

 

Thanks Raymw

 

My reasoning was I've spent a third of £147 already on shapeways getting my various bits and bobs printed and I haven't got to the big stuff yet. I probably need to read a bit more about using a 3d printer before buying but even twice that amount isn't unaffordable in the big scheme of things. I was aware it was slow, and I guess the secret is, as you say, to break it up into kit-like parts. The problem I'm seeing with shapeways is unless it's FUD it needs finishing/filling which makes putting fine detail on liable to be broken off or sanded over by my clumsy hands. And even FUD/FED isn't perfect when it's compared to injection moulding/brass. Saying that, wood does seem to get a good texture. I'm sure in a few years the print quality will be a lot smoother and probably revolutionary in the hobby.

[AndyID]

I had problems getting the prints to stick to the Kapton, and now, having sorted that, getting the finished print to unstick!

 

I get good results with blue painter's tape. I give it a light rub with fine sandpaper to remove any residue and "key" the surface between prints. I've used the same piece of sandpaper now for at least 100 prints. I may have to splash out and use a new piece soon

[AndyID]

afaik, the shapeways stuff is not printed by filament printers, but I've never used them, so the surface finish you get will be different if using the home filament type machines.

 

 

Hi Ray,

 

Yes, I believe Shapeways mainly uses sintered plastic powders, but AFAIK, all the various printing processes stack 2D layers to construct a 3D object.

 

Cheers!

Andy

[eldavo]

There are many different suppliers of complete or kits of parts for Prusa i3 printers largely due to the fact that the design is open source as part of the RepRap project. £150 is a good price especially as it has a heated bed though the rated 70 degrees won't be good enough to print ABS reliably.

 

The material costs for the O gauge wagon are negligible, literally pence. A kilogram of perfectly usable PLA can be had for about £15 and this model weighs just a few grammes.

 

When it comes to 4mm I think you could get some reasonable results with the low end FFF printers. I did some comparative prints for a little project I was working on which folks may see in a few months. The following is the same wagon CAD simply scaled down to 4mm and printed as a complete wagon body. The one on the left is from the Prusa printed at 100 microns while the one on the right is printed using a sintered process at Shapeways at 150 microns. Neither are perfect or good enough but you can see the differences in the rendition and surface finish.

 

 

I would have had better results if I had drawn the CAD model to suit the printer and for a 4mm model. The 0.4mm extruder nozzle is probably too big and results would be better with something smaller. More importantly I would get better results if I had created a set of parts as I did with the 7mm model.

 

Below is the underframe, solebars, buffer beams and wagon floor assembled from components along with one wagon end. Again this is a simple scaling down of the 7mm model so could be improved on. The solebars detail for instance could be improved upon.

 

 

All good fun.

 

Cheers

Dave

[Charlie586]

There are many different suppliers of complete or kits of parts for Prusa i3 printers largely due to the fact that the design is open source as part of the RepRap project. £150 is a good price especially as it has a heated bed though the rated 70 degrees won't be good enough to print ABS reliably.

 

The material costs for the O gauge wagon are negligible, literally pence. A kilogram of perfectly usable PLA can be had for about £15 and this model weighs just a few grammes.

 

When it comes to 4mm I think you could get some reasonable results with the low end FFF printers. I did some comparative prints for a little project I was working on which folks may see in a few months. The following is the same wagon CAD simply scaled down to 4mm and printed as a complete wagon body. The one on the left is from the Prusa printed at 100 microns while the one on the right is printed using a sintered process at Shapeways at 150 microns. Neither are perfect or good enough but you can see the differences in the rendition and surface finish.

 

IMG_20160619_170032404.jpg

 

I would have had better results if I had drawn the CAD model to suit the printer and for a 4mm model. The 0.4mm extruder nozzle is probably too big and results would be better with something smaller. More importantly I would get better results if I had created a set of parts as I did with the 7mm model.

 

Below is the underframe, solebars, buffer beams and wagon floor assembled from components along with one wagon end. Again this is a simple scaling down of the 7mm model so could be improved on. The solebars detail for instance could be improved upon.

 

IMG_20160619_170135804.jpg

 

All good fun.

 

Cheers

Dave

 

Thanks Dave

 

Looking at the photos, a combination of 3d printing for wood paneling and hidden bits plus plasticard for finer detail would be a good mix, but obviously involves a lot more assembly, especially when you get down to rivet and detail level. I suppose it's learning the limitations and working round them. I assume from what you said about the nozzles that you can interchange them and buy finer ones.

 

I'm very tempted to just go for the cheapest one just to have a play with it! If I keep telling myself it's less than the cost of 2 new engines then I'll eventually convince myself.

[Knuckles]

I have this thought that if I get anything less than what I think will be good enough for my needs then I'll end up wasting my money due to having to buy a new one.  This view may or may not be true.

 

Any thoughts on the CEL Robox?

 

I want a 3DP as I've quite frankly had enough with Shapeways messing me(us) about in various ways (really badly) and after the email I sent them the other day I'm hoping they don't delete me!

 

Sense of humour failure doesn't describe it well enough. 

[raymw]

CEL (Robox) design/marketing is based in Portishead. I phoned them a couple of times, just after they started selling the Robox. They seemed quite helpful. For a few pounds they will send you some sample prints - maybe if not busy they would print a small item of your design. I would suggest you phone them up and have a chat.

[raymw]

A much better use - chocolate https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IieGRoBlod8

[AndyID]

Printed on a Prusa i3. (Apologies to those who might have seen this before.)

 

 

Obviously not as crisp as an injection molded crossing, but one of the roads on this one is actually curved. I happen to think it looks a lot better than rails soldered on to copperclad timbers. On this particular version the check rails were printed along with the timbers.

 

Other than the rails, the material cost is negligible.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Charlie586]

Printed on a Prusa i3. (Apologies to those who might have seen this before.)

 

DSCN2539.JPG

 

Obviously not as crisp as an injection molded crossing, but one of the roads on this one is actually curved. I happen to think it looks a lot better than rails soldered on to copperclad timbers. On this particular version the check rails were printed along with the timbers.

 

Other than the rails, the material cost is negligible.

 

 

Very nice, and once ballasted and in a layout would look even better. I started reading the 3d printed turnout thread a while back, it's one of the many I need to catch up on. The more 3d prints I see then more I'm convinced that timber is the perfect thing for it to model because of the grain. I'm think I'm sold on buying one, it would pay for itself with track alone, but maybe buying the cheapest one via ebay maybe not the brightest idea for potential reliability / guarantee reasons.

[eldavo]

I assume from what you said about the nozzles that you can interchange them and buy finer ones.

 

I'm very tempted to just go for the cheapest one just to have a play with it! If I keep telling myself it's less than the cost of 2 new engines then I'll eventually convince myself.

The answer is "it depends". There are several designs of extruder/not end and with some changing the final nozzle size is a case of simply unscrewing one and screwing in another. On others it ain't so simple. Guess which type I ended up with!

 

The price get is not a lot of cash but expect to spend quite a lot of time getting the best from it and expect many failures in your designs etc. Fun if you enjoy the challenge.

 

Cheers

Dave

[Charlie586]

The answer is "it depends". There are several designs of extruder/not end and with some changing the final nozzle size is a case of simply unscrewing one and screwing in another. On others it ain't so simple. Guess which type I ended up with!

 

The price get is not a lot of cash but expect to spend quite a lot of time getting the best from it and expect many failures in your designs etc. Fun if you enjoy the challenge.

 

Cheers

Dave

 

The time spent fiddling/tinkering could be a problem as any time spent doing that takes time away from actual modelling. Saying that, our puppy's still hyperactive and tries to eat everything so a lot of my current modelling time is spent on the pc doing research ( i.e. looking at pictures of trains and fiddling about with blender.) Experimenting with it would probably make a good winter project.

[MGR Hooper!]

"MY" HONEST OPINION...

 

No. People with too much confidence may feel that 3D printing will take over the world, but it won't. What can be mass produced quickly using traditional methods cannot be 3D printed at that speed and that low cost.

 

But I cannot say it's over-hyped just coz some people think it is.

 

3D printing allows me to make models that would otherwise not be a commercially viable product! 

Just received a few 3D printed samples that I am working on with another gentleman... I received both 1:87 and 1:450 parts.

 

1. I am absolutely blown away.
2. 3D printing is NOT over-hyped.
3. Thanks to 3D printing I've been able to collaborate with another outstanding individual and pay for my education as an end result.
4. WSF looks really grainy in pics, in reality is quite okay. FUD is like a miracle material in 1:450.
5. It gives people an opportunity to share their work in many forms.

I honestly don't see it being hyped or over-hyped in any way whatsoever.

[Talltim]

Mention of the long print time for seems to occur a lot. Is that really an issue? Do you need to monitor it the whole time? Otherwise its a bit like a dishwasher, set itt going when you go to bed and get up in the morning to the finished article.

[Knuckles]

If it all goes well, otherwise you end up with a lump of poo.