A Giesl NCB Austerity [SOLVED]

[Greenhead156]

Can anyone help me identify the loco and the location on the photo below? [Photographer unknown, my collection]:

 

 

The image caption says that this was shot in 1961 on NCB's West Midlands Division. I also have a German source claiming the export of 22 sets of Giesl ejectors for NCB Austerities, but I have my doubts as I found at least 25 of the beasts:

 

1. Hunslet 2859/1943: Baddesley Colliery No. 1
2. Hunslet 2878/1943: Ashington network No. 46
3. Hunslet 2895/1943: Granville Colliery (didn't find number, not sure about nameplate)
4. Hunslet 3196/1944: Ashington network No. 53
5. Hunslet 3302/1945: Walkden network "Stanley"
6. Hunslet 3692/1950: Cronton Colliery "Monty"
7. Hunslet 3695/1950: Bickershaw Colliery "Rodney"
8. Hunslet 3696/1950: Walkden network "Respite", later Lowca network, still later Bickershaw Colliery
9. Hunslet 3698/1950: Walkden network "Repulse"
10. Hunslet 3699/1950: Walkden network "Revenge", later Lowca network
11. Hunslet 3771/1952: Granville Colliery "Granville No. 5"
12. Hunslet 3778/1952: Walkden network "Warspite", later Lowca network
13. Hunslet 3779/1952: Cronton Colliery "Robin Hill"
14. Hunslet 3809/1954: Wemyss network No. 18
15. Hunslet 3823/1954: Walkden network "Warrior", later Bickershaw Colliery, renamed "Fred"?
16. Hunslet 3831/1955: Bickershaw Colliery "Spitfire", later Lowca network
17. Hunslet 3837/1955: Wemyss network No. 20, later renumbered No. 21, still later Comrie Colliery No. 5
18. Hunslet 3843/1956: Walkden network "Wizard"
19. Hudswell Clarke 1778/1945: Walkden network "Charles", later Lowca network
20. Vulcan Foundry 5278/1945: Ashington network No. 26
21. Vulcan Foundry 5306/1945: Ashington network No. 33
22. Robert Stephenson & Hawthorn 7104/1943: Ashington network No. 44
23. Robert Stephenson & Hawthorn 7178/1944:  Ashington network No. 27
24. Bagnall 2750/1943: Ashington network No. 49, later also Backworth
25. Bagnall 2777/1945: Comrie Colliery No. 7
26. ?????: Lambton network (or a neighbour?) No. 2(?)

 

Of these, only the Baddesley loco and the two Granville locos are West Midlands Division. Unfortunately, the hopper type doesn't fit, and one detail (the lack of a second row of rivets on the outsides of the buffers) matches only with one of the Granville locos, and the Granville locos also had a cover on the gap between the saddle tank "lobes" in front of the chimney.

 

If it's not the West Midlands Division, it should be a loco without nameplate. The Scottish locos also had the second row of rivets, so that leaves the Newcastle area. That would be good because hoppers like on the photo were common there and I'm told the signals look like NER, too.

 

Problem is, all of the Ashington loco photos I could find, except one of No. 44 inside Ashington Works, show a plate covering the saddle tank gap. Another mismatch is the external valve gear I see on most photos. So the only one remaining is a loco on a photo at eBay identified as NCB Lambton No. 2, pictured in May 1966, for which I couldn't find a works number (see below). The photo was definitely made at the triangle between Lambton and Philadelphia, but the loco is probably a "guest" arriving from a neighbouring network for an overhaul at Philadelphia Works, as the real NCB Lambton No. 2 was a different type.

 

 

A different route would be to identify the location. On the photo, there is a rather peculiar bridge. I am not even sure whether it is a footbridge, a conveyor or a pipeline. But, for what it's worth, here is the photo again with the features I seem to recognise:

 

 

Or maybe there were several more NCB Giesl Austerities I failed to find?

 

Can someone with local knowledge, old photos or loco lists help out?

[mike morley]

Don't forget that the plate across the gap in front of the "chimney" (Were they still called chimneys on Geisel locos?) was removable.  You might be assuming what is actually two pictures of the same loco, with and without the plate, is two different locos.

[Mark Saunders]

It looks like somewhere in County Durham as the wagons all look like Charles Roberts NCB IU 21t hopper, (I think the riveted ones were all built for the Durham area).

 

Mark Saunders

[Les1952]

Lambton No.2 was a Stephenson & Hawthorn 0-6-0ST with 16" outside cylinders, works 7599 of 1949.  Its twin was No.63 (RSH 7600) which started at South Hetton before moving to Philadelphia to leave countless enthusiasts wondering why an obvious pair with adjacent works numbers should be 2 and 63....

 

I do, however, have a reference to a Durham loco with a Geisl ejector.  The IRS publication "Industrial Railways & Locomotives of County Durham part 2" which deals with the NCB and British Coal has the details on p158-159.

 

The locomotive in question is Hunslet 3191 of 1944 No.1 Area No.9 at the time of fitting, allocated to Whitburn Colliery.  Fitted with the ejector during overhaul at Whitburn Central Workshops between 7/60 and 2/61 (last sighting and first sighting at work respectively).  It was renumbered 2 in 1963, and the Geisl ejector stated as removed at Whitburn workshops sometime between Dec 1963 and May 65.  The loco was transferred to Lambton in December 1965, and was renumbered 2B as they already had a No.2 (see above).  Transferred to Wearmouth Colliery (still as 2B- they also already had a no.2) in June 1966, it was scrapped in 1969.

 

Picture could be taken somewhere between Whitburn and South Shields.  The signals look decidedly British Railways.  As to the colour pic, which does appear to be the triangle at the top of Junction Bank, the date if correct would place this loco at Philadelphia.  However it then casts doubt on the claim that Whitburn shops removed the Geisl by May 1965, and the letter B after the number 2 isn't visible.  A picture of the loco at Wearmouth would settle the matter.  The wasp stripes and footplate steps make me a little hesitant as to whether it is actually the same engine in the two photos, however.

 

Such is the joy of the Coal Board and its locos.   I'm not aware of any other Geisl fitted locos in County Durham, though I may of course be wrong.

 

Les

 

Addendum - "Continent, Coalfield and Conservation" only says of this loco that it "was fitted with a Geisl ejector at some time" but fixes the renumbering date more closely.

[Greenhead156]

It might help in queries such as this if details of the origin of the photo is given - i.e. is it from a publication or offered for sale by a dealer - who might have only a vague idea of the subject/date ?  Is a higher resolution image available which might make some of the detail clearer ?

 

The photo is from a publication, but its origin is a collection in Germany, so vague idea alright. Unfortunately, the details in this resolution are as much detail as I can get.

 

However, I thank you and Les1952 for giving me lots of information to dig further into.

[Greenhead156]

Taking some account of the photo caption I would say that the unknown loco may be Hunslet 3160/44.  This loco was at Deep Pit Colliery, Hanley, Stoke-on-Trent and fitted with the Giesl ejector in 1961 - hence possibly prompting the photo in question.  Deep Pit had a nearby main line connection and also a connecting line to Shelton Steelworks worked by the colliery locomotives, so the photo could be at the colliery or the steelworks.  I don't know whether the type of wagon in the photo would be appropriate for this service.  At that time the locomotive carried neither name or number.  The colliery closed in May 1962 and HE 3160 was transferred to Sneyd Colliery, then Victoria Colliery in August 1962 where it received the number 18.  In October 1965 it went under its own steam over BR to Norton Colliery, but it was not used here - said to be too big (above info from IRS North Staffordshire Handbook).  I photographed it in March 1968 shortly before it was scrapped.  It had acquired larger diameter buffers, a spark arresting mesh over the chimney and front sandboxes above the footplate.  The latter were similar to sandboxes on Robert Heath locomotives and probably acquired from a redundant Heath loco at Victoria Colliery.  It did not have a plate covering the gap in the front of the saddle tank.

 

Amazingly, I found a letter to the editor by a man who was the fireman on the Deep Pit Colliery Giesl-fitted loco when it was transferred to Sneyd Colliery, with two photos of the loco attached [the gentleman must err about the date of the photos, however]. Unfortunately, it can't be the loco on my mystery photo: it appears to have had the spark arrester mesh from very early on (just like the first of the Giesl Austerities at Baddesley Colliery, already on photos right after conversion in from 1959). Also, on the photos I could find, the hoppers used in the area were different.

 

So now I'll look more at Whitburn and the South Shields area.

[Greenhead156]

I now have a candidate for the location: near what was Marsden Village, looking south-east. Can anyone confirm? I detail the indications I found.

 

Above I wrote about the hoppers excluding the possibilities other tha the Whitburn Colliery loco, but I found a photo at Shelton Steelworks showing two five-ribbed 21-ton hoppers. However, the arrangement of the inscriptions is different. In fact, the only pictures I can find which show these type of hoppers with the correct inscription arrangement (for example this) belong to NCB Harton. So the South Shields area, after all.

 

As for the South Shields area, most of the NCB network can be ruled out as it was electrified. Not so the Westoe Colliery to Whitburn Colliery section. The curve on the photo can't be at Whitburn Colliery itself, as it looks all different (see this aerial photo in particular). The only curve of significance on the rest of the line was just north-east of the colliery, where the line ran between Whitburn Quarry and the one-time village of Marsden (see unfortunately low-res aerial image). At this site, the line passed coal drops and lime kilns (both still visible) with a trench between them wide enough for a track, there was definitely a track at its northern end (see this aerial photo), and there was a signal box and sidings (see photos looking south-east and looking north-west). On the last photo, you can see a signal gantry with three signals that looks exactly like the one on the photo, from the opposite direction.

 

I'm still not entirely certain: for example, on the mystery photo, left of the triple signal, there are what look like two facing half-arch gantry signals, which would then belong to deviating tracks I can't find any trace of and the signals aren't on the sidings photo showing the triple signal, either. So, can anyone confirm or contradict my guess?

[Greenhead156]

HAH!

 

Just after finishing the above post, I happened upon an old photograph of the lime kilns at Marsden Village which finally confirm the location! For, it shows the mystery bridge, ending in a loader after all (on my photo, you can actually barely make out the top left edge and the bottom of the loader on the right side of the loco):

 

 

I thank every poster here, for each of you gave me useful hints that finally led to the solution.

[Greenhead156]

Here is the best I could get in terms of zooming in on the part of the photo with the signal:

 

 

Left of the triple signal, the other two features behind the train and the bridge - which I earlier thought to be two other signals - are actually the chimneys of the Marsden Village post office, also visible on the extreme left of your photo. (The post office is the only building of the village still standing today; the village was demolished "in the early 1960s".)

 

I also found the Marsden Banner Group's high-res version of the aerial photo of the village [photographer unknown, taken early 1960s], and made a cut-out on which you can see the post office and the coal drops (red circles) as well as the conveyor bridge to the lime kilns (green circle):