'scrap' at preserved railways

[gwrcolin]

 

 

But batting against them are Mr.& Mrs. Joe Punter, who actually bring in the money. How often I've heard it said "we come for a ride behind a steam engine.......We can travel on a diesel anyday on BR". They can't of course but that sums up their knowledge of railways. It doesn't matter anyway. What does matter is the public continue to visit preservation sites and ride the trains. Enthusiasm without money can do nothing.

 

 

I don't think this is always the case there seems to be as many diesel followers out there as steam followers. Over the last couple of years i have been to a large number of steam and diesel galas and they always seem very busy no matter what type of traction is running. People tend to go on the preserved lines for the experience more than anything. Some Joe public may just want to ride behind a steam engine but i feel that many of the people who go to preserved lines have some form of interest and just bring there wives and kids with them. When i was at school everyone used to say noone liked trains but if you see how many people go to gals and stand by the side of the main line when a railtour is due through it is simply staggering.

[The Stationmaster]

I don't think this is always the case there seems to be as many diesel followers out there as steam followers. Over the last couple of years i have been to a large number of steam and diesel galas and they always seem very busy no matter what type of traction is running. People tend to go on the preserved lines for the experience more than anything. Some Joe public may just want to ride behind a steam engine but i feel that many of the people who go to preserved lines have some form of interest and just bring there wives and kids with them. When i was at school everyone used to say noone liked trains but if you see how many people go to gals and stand by the side of the main line when a railtour is due through it is simply staggering.

 

 

While galas undoubtedly bring in crowds they don't happen every weekend on every railway, or on every weekday during the tourist/summer season's daily operation.

 

Virtually all the preserved/tourist railways only manage to survive financially because their main market is not railway enthusiasts. In most cases they have to be tourist attractions in order to survive, and the ones that are good at that can even manage to get by without any volunteer staff. And the railways have to provide what the tourists and casual visitors want because they are the people who cough up the 'baseload' cash.

 

Railways do make money out of enthusiasts at gala times and to some extent on the more expensive items in their shops but they don't sell them much film nowadays and an awful lot of 'enthusiasts' are often only there just to take pictures.

[37114]

Interesting debate and one that has been discussed many times, but at the end of the day it comes down to 2 things - Money and Manpower. Both are comomodities are in short supply and has to spread across the ever increasing numbers of preserved locos (both Steam and Diesel). Say a shining knight comes forward and restores 34073, 25244 and 45015, great but what happens when his money runs out or he shuffles of this mortal coil? And is the resurection of any of those 3 going to deprive volunteers from an already working member of the class?

 

The simple facts are circa 300 steam locos and 400 diesel locos preserved is not something thats feasible to maintain over the next 30 - 40 years. Will the rail fan of tomorrow be interested that 34073 languished in a south wales scrap yard for 30 years or 45015 is the only survining class 45 ever to have nose doors? Unlikely. Whether we like it or not some locos will be scrapped as spares run out for them or the expertise to repair them disappears. The availablilty of space for all these preserved locos is fast disappearing with many lines saying "full" or at least only entertaining locos in running order with a full support crew to maintain them.

 

Although as my ID suggestes I like them, we have reached saturation point with the amount of preserved class 37 (circa 50) with locos in near working order going for scrap with it seems anyone who wants one has got one. The arguement could be said to be the same with the bullied pacifics which are hindered by their size, coal consumption etc hence why 34073 has laid unrestored for many years.

[PhilH]

The arguement could be said to be the same with the bullied pacifics which are hindered by their size, coal consumption etc hence why 34073 has laid unrestored for many years.

 

Not quite right with 34073, certainly for the first thirty odd years since it was saved from the scrapman - having been associated with the MHR for many years I know the early history of this loco fairly well. It was bought by a man who was subsequently mislead. Enough said.

[WR Tim]

But batting against them are Mr.& Mrs. Joe Punter, who actually bring in the money. How often I've heard it said "we come for a ride behind a steam engine.......We can travel on a diesel anyday on BR". They can't of course but that sums up their knowledge of railways. It doesn't matter anyway. What does matter is the public continue to visit preservation sites and ride the trains. Enthusiasm without money can do nothing.

 

That's only one side of the coin though isn't it?

 

I'd expect that for at least some of the railways, while having a fleet of mainline diesels may not bring in Mr and Mrs Joe Punter (without whom the railway cannot survive), having this fleet of mainline diesels brings in a substantial number of volunteers who, with the occaisional turn helping out with other aspects of the railway, are also essential to the railway's survival.

 

I've not got direct experience of this but at a guess, a loco society whose members make no effort to get involved with other aspects of the running of their host line is going to be one of those loco societies that you sometimes hear are looking for a new home due to political differences with the host railway.

 

Enthusiasm can do nothing without money but money without enthusiasm is also insufficient to keep a railway going.

 

As for the original topic - it's easy to see both sides. The "rusting hulks" do look a bit grim and you can see that some of them may not run again when others could also use the work but, at the same time, different people like different things and, once it's gone, it's gone. I've always been surprised that so few of them are covered over - surely the cost of tarpaulins is a fraction of a cost of repairing the damage caused by years sitting exposed to the rain.

[PhilH]

I'd expect that for at least some of the railways, while having a fleet of mainline diesels may not bring in Mr and Mrs Joe Punter (without whom the railway cannot survive), having this fleet of mainline diesels brings in a substantial number of volunteers who, with the occaisional turn helping out with other aspects of the railway, are also essential to the railway's survival.

 

That's certainly not the case on the MHR.

[coachmann]

Has anyone ever thought why so few steam locos were purchased in the 1960s? Everything was expensive when set against the disposable income that was available at the time. Remember most worker still used public transport and all the things we take for granted today were beyond the pockets of the majority.

 

The fact that so many diesels and scrapyard steam locos have been saved is down to the vast increase in disposable income. The branchlines to run them on were already in place, secured by previous generations of enthusiasts and visitors.

 

But to many people, a diesel loco might be 50 years old or brandnew, only an enthusiast would know. If a flat wagon carrying a ship's boiler was shunted into a station, the folks would go all dreamy eyed and say "Ah, a steam loco"....

[Baby Deltic]

Has anyone ever thought why so few steam locos were purchased in the 1960s? Everything was expensive when set against the disposable income that was available at the time. Remember most worker still used public transport and all the things we take for granted today were beyond the pockets of the majority.

 

The fact that so many diesels and scrapyard steam locos have been saved is down to the vast increase in disposable income. The branchlines to run them on were already in place, secured by previous generations of enthusiasts and visitors.

 

But to many people, a diesel loco might be 50 years old or brandnew, only an enthusiast would know. If a flat wagon carrying a ship's boiler was shunted into a station, the folks would go all dreamy eyed and say "Ah, a steam loco"....

 

The way I see it at the moment, many of those who remember mainline steam are still alive. In 30 odd years, it may be the case that the balance shifts, and we have an older generation raised during the corporate era of diesel and electric traction on BR, so the balance of interest in steam and diesel loco's in preservation may also shift. Sure, we are always going to have younger generations volunteering to get involved in steam loco preservation, and that's brilliant, but the general punter's interest and appreciation of heritage diesel traction may increase in time, with more wanting a 'ride behind the diesel'.

The Deltic, Peak or Spoon may become the breadwinner of the future.

[S.A.C Martin]

The Deltic, Peak or Spoon may become the breadwinner of the future.

 

In so much regular timetabled services for preserved railway are concerned - then most likely yes.

 

However - they will not pull in the crowds like Flying Scotsman, City of Truro, Tornado or any of the other high profile steam locomotives. Deltics exempted - their following I think is, unlike the majority of the diesels, not just limited to the enthusiasts in some ways.

 

The general punter is always going to want to see a steam engine over a diesel - it's the visible difference in the steam and diesel engines, the smell of smoke and clouds of furious steam catching the punter's eye than the history behind the thing necessarily.

 

Of course, where narrow gauge steam-outline diesels sit, is another thing entirely...!

[Baby Deltic]

In so much regular timetabled services for preserved railway are concerned - then most likely yes.

 

However - they will not pull in the crowds like Flying Scotsman, City of Truro, Tornado or any of the other high profile steam locomotives. Deltics exempted - their following I think is, unlike the majority of the diesels, not just limited to the enthusiasts in some ways.

 

The general punter is always going to want to see a steam engine over a diesel - it's the visible difference in the steam and diesel engines, the smell of smoke and clouds of furious steam catching the punter's eye than the history behind the thing necessarily.

 

Of course, where narrow gauge steam-outline diesels sit, is another thing entirely...!

 

The Flying Scotsman will always be a household name because of its achievement, as will Mallard and City Of Truro. Tornado is also a beautiful piece of engineering, but I, and many, do see it a little with 'luddite' eyes myself because it is not an 'original'.

[S.A.C Martin]

Tornado is also a beautiful piece of engineering, but I, and many, do see it a little with 'luddite' eyes myself because it is not an 'original'.

 

I trust you will have to be somewhat more of a luddite if a new Baby Deltic is made then?

 

Jokes aside, the punter will see the steam and be more taken in by the atmosphere of a steam engine than a diesel. I'm not saying its right, or fair - that's simply a fact of preservation. Steam sells while diesels keep things ticking over.

[Baby Deltic]

I trust you will have to be somewhat more of a luddite if a new Baby Deltic is made then?

 

Jokes aside, the punter will see the steam and be more taken in by the atmosphere of a steam engine than a diesel. I'm not saying its right, or fair - that's simply a fact of preservation. Steam sells while diesels keep things ticking over.

 

I would be a 'luddite' if a new Baby Deltic were ever to be built, but beggers can't be choosers and I'm sure preservationists now look back with disbelief that the the last member of the class was allowed to be scrapped in the same way they regret the loss of so many steam loco classes. I would have loved to see a D16/3 for example, just as I would have loved to have seen a Baby Deltic or the North British built mainline diesel classes. As is the case with Tornado, if you want to see a dinosaur come back from the dead, you've got to make one from scratch.

[S.A.C Martin]

I would be a 'luddite' if a new Baby Deltic were ever to be built, but beggers can't be choosers and I'm sure preservationists now look back with disbelief that the the last member of the class was allowed to be scrapped in the same way they regret the loss of so many steam loco classes. I would have loved to see a D16/3 for example, just as I would have loved to have seen a Baby Deltic or the North British built mainline diesel classes. As is the case with Tornado, if you want to see a dinosaur come back from the dead, you've got to make one from scratch.

 

Totally agree with that last sentence. The fact so many of the early pioneer diesels slipped the net horrifies me today (although at 22 - hindsight with history being a wonderful thing? I wonder if I'd feel the same way about the class 59s and 66s...)

 

They can't all be saved, although I have always wondered how the LMS twins were never considered for preservation...

[The Stationmaster]

[/u]

 

Totally agree with that last sentence. The fact so many of the early pioneer diesels slipped the net horrifies me today (although at 22 - hindsight with history being a wonderful thing? I wonder if I'd feel the same way about the class 59s and 66s...)

 

They can't all be saved, although I have always wondered how the LMS twins were never considered for preservation...

 

Because the cake was only of a certain size and it wouldn't stretch that far is probably the most likely explanation. But then you could arguably advance an even better answer for keeping one of the Bulleid diesels ... and then it goes on.

 

The simple answer is that sheer economics does not allow everything to be saved, and probably never will.

[Baby Deltic]

[/u]

 

Totally agree with that last sentence. The fact so many of the early pioneer diesels slipped the net horrifies me today (although at 22 - hindsight with history being a wonderful thing? I wonder if I'd feel the same way about the class 59s and 66s...)

 

They can't all be saved, although I have always wondered how the LMS twins were never considered for preservation...

 

I think BR in general began to regret the scrapping of 10000/1. One of the reasons D200 was selected for the national collection was the argument put forward by BR's CMEE that D200 incorporated some of the design features of the early diesels - the power unit was a derivative of the 16SVT MK1 used in 10000, and the bogies were based on the design by Oliver Bulleid for 10201/2/3.

[coachmann]

If I had millions to throw about, I'd put money with the right people and have them build a replica LNWR 'Prince of Wales' and a GER D16. While the Luddites are moaning themselves silly, a lot of people's hearts would be beating faster at the sight of these old machines.

[Baby Deltic]

I suppose you could ask the ultimate question "how long will the preservation actually last". Will the loco's be around in, say, 200 years from now? (Except the NRM stuff which probably will).

How long will a Deltic or Bulleid be able to go on being overhauled, re-certified etc, for example.

I've often wondered what will be left in 400 years time after we're long gone. What will the attitude to preservation be then? Will any loco's in preservation still be running?

[D605Eagle]

I suppose you could ask the ultimate question "how long will the preservation actually last". Will the loco's be around in, say, 200 years from now? (Except the NRM stuff which probably will).

How long will a Deltic or Bulleid be able to go on being overhauled, re-certified etc, for example.

I've often wondered what will be left in 400 years time after we're long gone. What will the attitude to preservation be then? Will any loco's in preservation still be running?

At the moment there is a steady stream of diesels from the 1st to 2nd generation era getting scrapped supplying parts to keep our preserved diesel fleets going, but whats going to happen when they have all gone? I suppose then the worst of the preserved locos are going to be canablized to supply parts, and with pikeys stealing parts whenever anybodies backs are turned only exacerbates the situation. I imagine in your 400 years time scenario, providing we are still civilized I think the serviving diesels will all be museum exibits. Kettles are far easier to keep running indefinitely with fairly rudimentary tools, diesels on the other hand are not.....

[LNERJP]

At the moment there is a steady stream of diesels from the 1st to 2nd generation era getting scrapped supplying parts to keep our preserved diesel fleets going, but whats going to happen when they have all gone? I suppose then the worst of the preserved locos are going to be canablized to supply parts, and with pikeys stealing parts whenever anybodies backs are turned only exacerbates the situation. I imagine in your 400 years time scenario, providing we are still civilized I think the serviving diesels will all be museum exibits. Kettles are far easier to keep running indefinitely with fairly rudimentary tools, diesels on the other hand are not.....

 

Spot on D605Eagle, only I don't think we are going to have to wait 400 years, spares are becoming harder to find now, even a class 08 cylinder head and their's still loads of them about, people are holding on to them.

 

I had a quick look at the D8233 website, the standard of the work carried out looks first class, well done.

 

J.P.

[coachmann]

As I said earlier, many of the restored locos are virtually brandnew as regards platework. At the end of the day its a kettle supplying steam then exhausing it. This 18th Century invention is simple.

 

Try building a diesel! Theeee're all dooomed.......

[Ian J.]

Spot on D605Eagle, only I don't think we are going to have to wait 400 years, spares are becoming harder to find now, even a class 08 cylinder head and their's still loads of them about, people are holding on to them.

 

I had a quick look at the D8233 website, the standard of the work carried out looks first class, well done.

 

J.P.

Which reminds me of something I thought about recently: regardless of era or type, preservation isn't just about the actual locomotive, coach or wagon, it's also about preserving the knowledge, the skills and the facilities to fabricate the various parts, from castings for engine blocks, con rods or wheels, to wiring for alternators, windings for traction motors, mouldings for plastic parts, etc. Unless 'we' as a preservation movement attend to these things, then preserving any vehicle in running order is ultimately a fruitless task.

[Baby Deltic]

As I said earlier, many of the restored locos are virtually brandnew as regards platework. At the end of the day its a kettle supplying steam then exhausing it. This 18th Century invention is simple.

 

Try building a diesel! Theeee're all dooomed.......

 

Just because the engine manufacturer no longer makes the engine or its components, it doesn't have to mean that all is lost once all the stocks of available spares have been exhausted. As long as engineering drawings exist, and there's the finance and expertise available, anything can be re-made. Almost all of the Sulzer engines used in british locomotives were made in britain by Vickers Armstrong, under licence from Sulzer. Whether the skills and expertise have died out since is another question. On the flip side of the coin, manufacturing methods and technology have improved vastly since then, and many components which took large amounts of time and skill to machine, can now be mass produced on CNC machine tools, once they have been drawn up on computer. Obviously castings and drop forgeings are gonna cost a packet no matter what type of loco they are for, be it steam or diesel.

[coachmann]

Could anyone could afford to have a diesel loco built from scratch? Fuel oil will become a major consideration in time anyway and the enthusiast will be left high and dry.

 

The "ideal" at one time was to replace steam with electrification, and so the diesel was merely an interim move. Trouble is, where do you get electricity from. One politician said the plug! It has to be generated of course, so nothing is truly green. Once the western world has reduced wages to a minimum and wakes up to the fact that paying people to sit at home on benefits is unsustainable, the words "work for everyone" will be revived.....re-enter the simple steam loco, construction, disposal, maintenance, loco sheds etc etc........You never know...

[Baby Deltic]

Could anyone could afford to have a diesel loco built from scratch? Fuel oil will become a major consideration in time anyway and the enthusiast will be left high and dry.

 

The "ideal" at one time was to replace steam with electrification, and so the diesel was merely an interim move. Trouble is, where do you get electricity from. One politician said the plug! It has to be generated of course, so nothing is truly green. Once the western world has reduced wages to a minimum and wakes up to the fact that paying people to sit at home on benefits is unsustainable, the words "work for everyone" will be revived.....re-enter the simple steam loco, construction, disposal, maintenance, loco sheds etc etc........You never know...

 

Perhaps they could run the diesel loco on chip fat.

['CHARD]

I suppose you could ask the ultimate question "how long will the preservation actually last". Will the loco's be around in, say, 200 years from now? (Except the NRM stuff which probably will).

How long will a Deltic or Bulleid be able to go on being overhauled, re-certified etc, for example.

I've often wondered what will be left in 400 years time after we're long gone. What will the attitude to preservation be then? Will any loco's in preservation still be running?

It's a very interesting question, this particular one. And I think the answer, graphically at least, will look like a bathtub or bell curve, depending what we're plotting: bell for surviving artefacts, bathtub for scrappage rates.

 

Nowadays, it's easy to argue from the position of 'there wasn't much interest in preservation until,' when explaining why early diesels and many steam classes weren't preserved. But that's very telling in itself, and at the left hand end of the bathtub curve practically every locomotive withdrawn was scrapped for want of interest in saving it. Then there's a phase of healthy entry into preservation until this is saturated (as 37114 points out with his Cl.37 example), and at the turn of the next, or maybe next-but-one generation there's more wastage as the successor enthusiasts want space to preserve the objects of their youthful interest, not something with which they have no emotional connection.

 

The same can be said of other areas of restoration and museum collection, with the chaff (in our context read non-fixed and station ephemera, the lower orders of wagons and hardware) increasingly dispersed over time and ultimately lost or disposed of by successor generations for whom it has no significance. I can see this being the fate of much of what is currently in 'preservation,' a movement incidentally, which has yet to see its 40th anniversary where BR diesels are concerned, and I reckon in 25 more years we'll be in uncharted territory when it comes to a large portion of the steam inventory, where its active supporters are concerned. That's before we take account of other factors such as legislation, the economy, and unknowable demographic changes.

 

EDIT: I'd add that the real birth of preservation probably coincided to an extent with the advent of greater disposable ie. leisure/ non-essential income, but to counter that, it has to compete for its share of said income in a far more saturated marketplace in the 'teenies (or whatever this decade will become).